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TT question regarding tire cost


Houstonnw
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I am thinking about building a 2006 Mustang GT for TT. Coming from CMC, the ability to pick and choose parts with respect to points is very interesting.

 

However the tire costs scare me away. It seems that a competitive car requires Hoosiers with all of the wear, temperature cycle, and cost issues that come with them.

 

Does the average TTer like this? Does the average TTer want to be required to buy expensive tires to be fast?

 

Is there some reason that street tires cannot be made more competitive? The SCCA is requiring a minimum treadwear of 200 for the stock class in 2015. This probably means that there will be a good selection of tires with this rating.

 

I am not suggesting a separate street tire class that would reduce car counts in each class. I am just wondering if there would be interest in making say a 200 treadwear tire more competitive?

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In my experience, tires are one of the best mods to drop times in TT. We get a lot of guys in TT that come from W2W classes to win tires. They will have a set of A6s in many cases to run in TT. You can run more of a street tire, it will use less tire points and you can use those points in other areas in hopes of getting faster from other mods. It may also keep you from bumping up a class. It is hard to win if you can't handle in the turns and tires make it happen. I think you are already starting at a disadvantage for TT. IMO if you want to win in TT here is what you need

 

TTE-Miata

TTD-BMW

TTC-BMW

TTB-BMW

TT3-Corvette

 

These cars just seem to be able to obtain the perfect recipe for lap times compared to the points they obtain. It is still fun but I just consider myself the underdog.

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I am thinking about building a 2006 Mustang GT for TT. Coming from CMC, the ability to pick and choose parts with respect to points is very interesting.

 

However the tire costs scare me away. It seems that a competitive car requires Hoosiers with all of the wear, temperature cycle, and cost issues that come with them.

 

Does the average TTer like this? Does the average TTer want to be required to buy expensive tires to be fast?

 

Is there some reason that street tires cannot be made more competitive? The SCCA is requiring a minimum treadwear of 200 for the stock class in 2015. This probably means that there will be a good selection of tires with this rating.

 

I am not suggesting a separate street tire class that would reduce car counts in each class. I am just wondering if there would be interest in making say a 200 treadwear tire more competitive?

 

IMO, not in a Mustang. I think you would need to be in a very light car to make that happen. A search will reveal a few threads on this topic and I have seen lots of pointers in those.

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Does the average TTer like this? Does the average TTer want to be required to buy expensive tires to be fast?

There are no street tire contingencies so if you set your car up for that, you've locked yourself into a position where you have to continue to buy street tires forever. Buy yourself a set of Hoosiers (or any other brand that offers a contingency) and give it a try.

You may never have to buy another track tire again.

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TTE-Miata or Honda/Acura

TTD-BMW or FRS/BRZ or Miata

TTC-IROC-Z Camaro or Turbo Miata

TTB-Pontiac Firebird

TT3-Porsche 911 RSR

 

Fixed

 

 

Super fixed. hahahaha.

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With a mustang just make sure the parts you change are worth the points.For the s197's a lot of the points aren't worth taking.Take a look at the Spec Iron rules and the parts that are listed.That class is basically TTB or PTB and it would be a competitive car if built right and the right parts selected,but I would build around the tire's though.

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Wayne, you should chat with Dave Whitener and/or Andrew Hahn... they're the street tire experts that happen to be local to our region and may be willing to see if they can translate their magic over to a heavier car.

 

Otherwise just build the car, run, slide around, have fun.

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TTE-Miata or Honda/Acura

TTD-BMW or FRS/BRZ or Miata

TTC-IROC-Z Camaro or Turbo Miata

TTB-Pontiac Firebird

TT3-Porsche 911 RSR

 

Fixed

 

 

Super fixed. hahahaha.

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In theory it's already possible to win on street tires if you're in TTB-F, that's what the points system is supposed to accomplish. I guess it's not working though since AFAIK every single track record is set on A6's.

 

I'd run street tires in TT3 if there was an additional wt/pwr ratio modifier for it - either that or change the existing "DOT" modifier to instead apply to "DOT 100+ UTQG" since calling A6's a "DOT" tire is beyond stupid. They're as fast as many slicks, they should get classed as such. (Actually right now I'm planning on running street tires in TT3 anyway and just losing, but having a chance to win would be nice!)

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In theory it's already possible to win on street tires if you're in TTB-F, that's what the points system is supposed to accomplish. I guess it's not working though since AFAIK every single track record is set on A6's.

 

I'd run street tires in TT3 if there was an additional wt/pwr ratio modifier for it - either that or change the existing "DOT" modifier to instead apply to "DOT 100+ UTQG" since calling A6's a "DOT" tire is beyond stupid. They're as fast as many slicks, they should get classed as such. (Actually right now I'm planning on running street tires in TT3 anyway and just losing, but having a chance to win would be nice!)

Maybe that's the case for your region but thats not what I'm seeing in mine

 

TT1-3 it's a good mix of A6 and non-DOTs like Hoosier R80s/R100s, Michelins, Pirrellis, etc. With the distinction being DOT or Non-DOT it only makes sense to run the best of either type though. Tires are just one of the many things that make these classes spendy though. Is what it is. (RIP TTA).

 

TTB - mostly A6, and a deep class but really dominated by 2 different styles "builds" - "Spec" S2000 or "Spec" E46 M3 so there's alot of copying going on

TTC - sparsely populated, NT01s, Hankook TD, or Conti DW.

TTD - R6 or *street tires*, but a bit sparsely populated

TTE - A6, R6/SM6, Toyo RR, Maxxis and *street tires* all hold records. Deep class.

TTF - R6 or *street tires* but just a few good cars.

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That could be the case, I am mainly looking at TT3 at this point since I'm stuck running there and mostly just pissed at TTA going away right after I bought my car.

 

It's doubly annoying because SCCA Solo went to street tires in stock classes for 2014, so I was thinking that I could run both TTA and AS with the same car on the same tires with almost zero dollars spent on mods - including running the same street tires that I drove the car to the track on! Just change alignment and brake pads and run.

 

It seems pretty damn simple from where I'm sitting, but I'm obviously in the minority in wanting to run a street car on street tires. I don't see the harm in at least nominally allowing street tires to be a possibility in TT123. Add one or two more lines to the tires section:

 

DOT-approved Tire UTQG 100-199 +0.3

DOT-approved Tire UTQG 200 or higher +0.7

 

(the 0.3 and 0.7 might not be appropriate but you get the idea)

 

They went as far as to add modifiers to allow non-production vehicles in at a penalty. How many entries do you think that gained versus allowing people to run on street tires with a bonus?

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As someone who is building an ST3 car, this is an interesting idea. Working it through, though, there is point of dimishing returns in ST classes with higher HP than the letter classes. An A6 is likely worth 3-4 seconds per lap over a good street tire. How many HP would it take to make up that gap in a 9:1 WT/HP ST car? My guess is a lot. 100 in an average (e.g. 320-350 HP) car? More? You'd need to spend the money to make ST1 HP to run street tires in many cases. This would at best diminish any cost savings from street tires, and would likely turn it on it's head.

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That could be the case, I am mainly looking at TT3 at this point since I'm stuck running there and mostly just pissed at TTA going away right after I bought my car.

I went the other direction: scrub Conti Slicks

 

They are exempt from the -0.7 penalty (see Appendix A), can be had for $125 in 305/18 with one heat cycle, and I can run faster laps than the worn out Hoosiers I used in the past.

 

I'm still new at the TT game, but this is the direction I'm taking my otherwise bone stock C5.

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That could be the case, I am mainly looking at TT3 at this point since I'm stuck running there and mostly just pissed at TTA going away right after I bought my car.

I went the other direction: scrub Conti Slicks

 

They are exempt from the -0.7 penalty (see Appendix A), can be had for $125 in 305/18 with one heat cycle, and I can run faster laps than the worn out Hoosiers I used in the past.

 

I'm still new at the TT game, but this is the direction I'm taking my otherwise bone stock C5.

I'm busy right now, and I just happened upon this post. Eric, I don't know what tires you are talking about, but these are the only tires in the Continental Series, and the only ones that are exempt:

 

3.2. Tire Manufacturers

3.2.1. The only permitted tire manufacturer is Continental Tire.

3.2.2. The only permitted tire is: Extreme Contact Dry

CATALOG # SIZE OVERALL DIA. CIRC. TREAD WIDTH SECTION WIDTH

20231ST 225/45R17 EC-DRY 24.5 76.9 8.7 9.6

20246ST 245/45R17 EC-DRY 25.3 79.4 9.4 9.9

20266GS 245/40R18 EC-DRY 25.3 79.4 9.4 10

20271GS 275/35R18 EC-DRY 25.3 79.5 10.2 11

 

 

They are not "slicks" really, and they are not 305's.

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As someone who is building an ST3 car, this is an interesting idea. Working it through, though, there is point of dimishing returns in ST classes with higher HP than the letter classes. An A6 is likely worth 3-4 seconds per lap over a good street tire. How many HP would it take to make up that gap in a 9:1 WT/HP ST car? My guess is a lot. 100 in an average (e.g. 320-350 HP) car? More? You'd need to spend the money to make ST1 HP to run street tires in many cases. This would at best diminish any cost savings from street tires, and would likely turn it on it's head.

 

Depends on the car really. A stock C6 Z06 is already beyond TT3, for example... if you have one you are stuck running against race cars with full aero unless you detune and add ballast. If you could just run on R888's at more or less stock power without feeling the need to rent a wind tunnel and spend $5k+ in aero parts that would be cool. Even a C5 can easily be way over the TT3 power limit. Running small tires (275's) and a heavy car (3301 lbs) the limit is only 384 whp. There is tons of room for cheap power in the LS motors.

 

Either way, I have decided not to run race tires for now regardless of the rules ($1k for a set of tires that lasts all year vs. $1500+ for a set that lasts 1 weekend is no choice at all to me) so I'm obviously biased to want any bonus I can get from that choice.

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So to make yourself competitive on street tires, you can find nearly 600 reliable, cheap crank HP?

 

That said, my 2,600lb LS1 powered 944 would make a good candidate for making big HP/wt. on the cheap.

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So to make yourself competitive on street tires, you can find nearly 600 reliable, cheap crank HP?

 

That said, my 2,600lb LS1 powered 944 would make a good candidate for making big HP/wt. on the cheap.

 

Cheap compared to blowing through a set of A6's every weekend? Yeah. Everything is cheap compared to that - and you still get to have the power when you get off the track, unlike the Hoosier grip. It just goes back to the street car vs race car mentality. I might see 24 hours of track time per year at most in my car but I will see on the order of 240 hours of street time in it, probably even more.

 

Hell, for the price of 6 sets of 275 Hoosiers per year I could buy 2 more C5 Corvettes or lease a brand new BMW M3. $750 a month in tires that last a few hours? No thanks. I'd be divorced if I ran A6's.

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Cheap compared to blowing through a set of A6's every weekend? Yeah. Everything is cheap compared to that - and you still get to have the power when you get off the track, unlike the Hoosier grip. It just goes back to the street car vs race car mentality. I might see 24 hours of track time per year at most in my car but I will see on the order of 240 hours of street time in it, probably even more.

 

 

A's will last more than a weekend, if TT'ing only and alignment, etc is somewhat under control. Also, and let me first say that I'm in the same boat as you..bought a c5 just before pt/tta demise and the day that those classes went away was a bad day....agreed, I think your perception of a "winning" TT car may be a bit skewed. The days of a street car winning on a regular basis in TTA/TT3 and up (faster classes) was gone a while back. Come to RA this weekend and look at the TT cars that are competing. You won't find very much that can be of use on the street. That said, I've got a light, caged c5 coupe if you'd rather not gut/cage yours.

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I'm interested in exploring the idea, because I'm faced with the same tire dilemma as well, though PT is a little different than TT in regards to the viability of the A6/A7. It would probably take some more testing and input on actual tire life (in a competitive state) vs. actual performance. There are other factors to take into account as well, such as brake and other component life when adding big HP to low cornering speeds.

 

My point is not that this thought should be dismissed, but that it is much more complex than it first appears from a rule making perspective. What may seem obvious, is not so much. Having been in a rule making role, it is really critical to explore all of the unintended consequences of what is proposed.

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A's will last more than a weekend, if TT'ing only and alignment, etc is somewhat under control. Also, and let me first say that I'm in the same boat as you..bought a c5 just before pt/tta demise and the day that those classes went away was a bad day....agreed, I think your perception of a "winning" TT car may be a bit skewed. The days of a street car winning on a regular basis in TTA/TT3 and up (faster classes) was gone a while back. Come to RA this weekend and look at the TT cars that are competing. You won't find very much that can be of use on the street. That said, I've got a light, caged c5 coupe if you'd rather not gut/cage yours.

 

You're right and in one of my earlier posts I started to write that in truth no street car is ever going to be competitive with anything resembling the current rules. Being free to gut the car and move all of the weight down low is a HUGE change. My Z06 has 54% front weight as it sits with a decent amount of that weight up relatively high. I'd probably still get smoked even in TTA, but it wouldn't feel quite as impossible as it does now. TTA mods chased tenths, TT3 mods chase seconds. The hot setup is probably a gutted car with 245 A6's with full aero to the absolute fullest extent of the rules combined with a lame "cheater" dyno tune putting you at peak power across the whole RPM band. I don't want to win that badly, though it would be an interesting experiment if I had a 6 figure TT budget.

 

I'm interested in exploring the idea, because I'm faced with the same tire dilemma as well, though PT is a little different than TT in regards to the viability of the A6/A7. It would probably take some more testing and input on actual tire life (in a competitive state) vs. actual performance. There are other factors to take into account as well, such as brake and other component life when adding big HP to low cornering speeds.

 

My point is not that this thought should be dismissed, but that it is much more complex than it first appears from a rule making perspective. What may seem obvious, is not so much. Having been in a rule making role, it is really critical to explore all of the unintended consequences of what is proposed.

 

My guess is it would be tough to equalize things for both TT and PT using the same rules, but since ST is already fully open in terms of brakes and other components it shouldn't be as hard to figure out. You just might have to run $6000 brakes if you don't want to spend $6000 per year on tires, but having that choice would certainly be interesting. TT3 in particular could be interesting in that you would have many possible fast combinations based on tires, aero, power, and weight. The race cars would probably still win on most tracks, but it would at least help to close the gap a little.

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Cheap compared to blowing through a set of A6's every weekend? .

 

Have you ever ran a set of A6s on your Z06?

 

Nope, haven't put together a hitch/trailer yet and am not willing to drive to the track on them. Am I wrong about them only being competitive for a few heat cycles at most? It seems that most people winning races sell them off after 1-3 cycles and run stickers almost constantly. For my own cost estimates I was assuming running them for 8-12: stickers for 2 saturday and 2 sunday sessions, then the old ones for Friday testing and the 2 other sessions on Saturday and Sunday. Buy a new set for every event and use the old set for practice - 2 sets for the first event, perhaps one scrub and one sticker to save a grand.

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