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TT question regarding tire cost


Houstonnw

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Cheap compared to blowing through a set of A6's every weekend? .

 

Have you ever ran a set of A6s on your Z06?

 

Nope, haven't put together a hitch/trailer yet and am not willing to drive to the track on them. Am I wrong about them only being competitive for a few heat cycles at most? It seems that most people winning races sell them off after 1-3 cycles and run stickers almost constantly. For my own cost estimates I was assuming running them for 8-12: stickers for 2 saturday and 2 sunday sessions, then the old ones for Friday testing and the 2 other sessions on Saturday and Sunday. Buy a new set for every event and use the old set for practice - 2 sets for the first event, perhaps one scrub and one sticker to save a grand.

 

 

The thing is though, if you're competitive, you're winning them, if not, no point in running them and just a massive waste of money. So if you're not within striking range of being first or second on your current tires then I wouldn't even consider them.

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The thing is though, if you're competitive, you're winning them, if not, no point in running them and just a massive waste of money. So if you're not within striking range of being first or second on your current tires then I wouldn't even consider them.

 

It goes well beyond that though, you have to be more than competitive - you have to dominate. You have to bring a whole new approach to things including at a minimum bringing a trailer with 2 sets of wheels and tires. Beyond that you also need to know that there will always be at least 5 people in your class. Here are the number of entries in TT3 for each event so far this year in the NE region:

 

2

3

3

2

1

2

1

0

5

7

 

Winning every single day would win you a total of 4 tires. You still have to buy at least 5 sets for the year, $7500 minimum, even if you win every day - unless you just turn around and go home if there are not 5 entries to save your $$$$ tires.

 

Bottom line: IMO there should be a modifier in TT123 for 100+ UTQG tires just like there is in TTB-F, possibly even a second modifier for 200+ UTQG. What is the downside? Are there people who would refuse to run against people on street tires or something?

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That's why you have two sets of wheels, ones with tires for when it matters and another set with scrubs.

Or some other contingency tire and some blue painters tape to cover up the Hoosier stickers.

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Troy - no offense, but your lack of experience and willingness to build a front running car (as admitted by your current setup) makes your argument hard to debate.

I'm not against your idea about a street tire modifier, but honestly it's not likely to be a competitive combination at most regional levels these days - especially in an unlimited class like TT3.

 

Why not go with the current rule set and see what happens. Adapt and change your strategies as needed?

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Consider this: On the "active topics" page there are two sets of tires at amazing prices. Douglas has c91 stickers for 800 and Brian has A6 stickers for 1k. Both are considerably less than a quality street tire. Buy one of those sets and at least give them a try. Hypothetically, if this pans out and a modifier is added for streets it would be beneficial for you to know what the competition has, right?

 

If nothing else.... if you enjoy driving its an experience worth having.

 

After driving a couple of sessions on them....throw the streets back on and go out.

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Troy - no offense, but your lack of experience and willingness to build a front running car (as admitted by your current setup) makes your argument hard to debate.

I'm not against your idea about a street tire modifier, but honestly it's not likely to be a competitive combination at most regional levels these days - especially in an unlimited class like TT3.

 

Why not go with the current rule set and see what happens. Adapt and change your strategies as needed?

 

I tried writing a bunch of different things but it all reads like a bunch of whining so I'll just leave it at this:

 

OP asked if we liked the current tire rules. I don't. I run street tires on a street car. Why that is accommodated by the rules in TTB-F and not TT123 is beyond me, hence my further participation in the discussion.

 

Are you claiming that no amount of HP can bring an R888 up to the same lap time as an A6?

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Are you claiming that no amount of HP can bring an R888 up to the same lap time as an A6?

 

That is entirely dependent upon the track. Horsepower is only useful when you're not turning.

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Are you claiming that no amount of HP can bring an R888 up to the same lap time as an A6?

 

At that point, doesn't that mean you're building a "drag car that turns"? Plus if making that much more power than a stock ls6 you're getting into a complete new realm of spending...as reliability starts to dwindle, adding tons of heat, you start trying to get abs to understand what the heck you're trying to do on streets with huge rotors loaded with eye-egressing pads, etc.

 

I don't completely understand why it's not an option but I also think the challenge would be huge and in the end you'd probably spend more and end up with a less reliable car, for its street duties which, understandably, are at priority for the car. Maybe the powers that be have seen enough in the past to save us noobs a little with the ruleset? 900rwhp on r888's isn't really going to do anyone any good. I think they do that in lesser series, however. May want to check it out (they may ask you to transplant a 4 banger with 7 turbos in place of the ls6, however...lol)?

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Chris is right. Once you crack open an LS for track duty power mods, all bets are off.

I recently sold a well built heads/cam (etc.) C5 that made nearly 470hp to the wheels. It was fun on the street, but I never took it to the track. The new owner tracked it in HPDE and it popped in very short order.

I've seen it happen many many times.

 

So:

Cost of 150hp mods = $3k at best

Cost of rebuild or crate engine = $5k

 

See where this is going?

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I am thinking about building a 2006 Mustang GT for TT. Coming from CMC, the ability to pick and choose parts with respect to points is very interesting. However the tire costs scare me away. It seems that a competitive car requires Hoosiers with all of the wear, temperature cycle, and cost issues that come with them. Does the average TTer like this? Does the average TTer want to be required to buy expensive tires to be fast?

Wayne - Welcome! I hope you can get a TT car running in NASA Texas for 2015.

 

DSC_1675-M.jpg

 

I think I can reply to your particular question with a unique perspective, as I have raced an S197 in NASA TT for the past 4 years, in the same NASA region as you race in, we started out on street compound tires and have moved to ever wider and stickier Hoosiers. We went from mid-pack in TTB to winning in TT3, and the biggest changes made over the past 4 seasons were to tires and aero. The engine in our 2011 GT is bone stock, with the addition of exhaust headers. We also have raced this car in SCCA Club Trials, Solo (in both street tire and R-compound classes), Optima/USCA, Goodguys, and GTA.

 

DSC_3898-M.jpg

 

Hoosiers are only a requirement if you want to win. Virtually ALL of the TT classes in the NASA Texas region are being won on Hoosier A6 tires. Ask any of the TT competitors, and it seems like everything from TTC to TTU is on Hoosiers this year, at least in our region. Only the smallest/lightest of cars are still seeing street compound tires winning around here, and I'd wager that those classes would be faster on As. We're building a car for one of these letter TT classes next year to prove this point.

 

Do we "like" spending money for tires that last a handful of laps? Of course not. But with the TT rules as they are written, the A6 is still worth it over a non-DOT slick or a slower R-compound DOT. And its worth TON over a street tire. I would wager that fresh A6s are worth every bit of 2 seconds over an R6. I've run both in the same weekend, and that's what I see. Call it a 4+ advantage over a good street tire (more like 6 seconds).

 

Tires make the most difference of any mod allowed in TT. With the short stints we (can) run in TT we can get away with running the stickiest tires made on earth - the BFG R1S and Hoosier A6. My typical TT session is 3-4 laps - with a warm up, one or maybe two hot laps, and a cool down. And try to only run I run 1-2 TT sessions per day, to conserve tires. The only reason you don't see more wins on the BFG is their total lack of contingency in TT. The R1S is a faster tire than the A6 (good data to prove this at the highest levels of TT), but it is hampered by a lack of sizes compared to Hoosier, and of course you can't win anything on BFGs, so we mostly stick to the Purple Crack. Even when we run SCCA Solo we run Hoosiers and the car is way more competitive.

 

DSC_4613-3-M.jpg

 

I've won 4 tires in TT3 at every NASA Texas weekend in 2014, and at every weekend in 2013 where we had enough cars in class - thankfully. At $1710 per set, the 335/345 A6s I run on ain't cheap, and it usually takes a fresh set of As to win around here. Our car has set all of the TT3 track records on the Texas schedule in 2013 and 2014, and we did it on A6s every time. I snuck in a few wins on 1 weekend old A6s, but that's a risk I don't like to take if I want to guarantee a win.

 

DSC_1014-M.jpg

 

In 2013 we won on 315 A6s at all 4 corners, but in 2014 we moved to 335 front and 345 rear A6s and have reset all of our TT3 old track records by 2-3 seconds. We run at the heavy end of the 9.5:1 pounds per hp TT3 class, running at 3802 pounds minimum with driver and ballast to be able to keep the 432 whp power that the stock motor makes in this car. And even though we're at virtually the same power to weight as American Iron our times are typically 2-7 seconds faster than the fastest AI cars. Why? Mostly its the tires. The Hoosier A6 is that much faster than the 275mm Toyos they have to run.

 

Is there some reason that street tires cannot be made more competitive? The SCCA is requiring a minimum treadwear of 200 for the stock class in 2015. This probably means that there will be a good selection of tires with this rating.

 

I am not suggesting a separate street tire class that would reduce car counts in each class. I am just wondering if there would be interest in making say a 200 treadwear tire more competitive?

Its simple physics... the best street compound tires just don't compare to an A6. Several reasons why. Most street compound tires are limited in sizes offered compared to the Hoosier A6/R6. We built our car originally around an SCCA Street Touring class, which was limited to street compound tires, and it was a PAINFUL lesson we learned in 2011-2012 in NASA TT (see below). The car was hopelessly outgunned in TTB on street tires, and it was much harder to drive with lower grip tires than on Hoosiers.

 

DSC_7126-M.jpg

 

In late 2012 I used a set of 315/35/18 Khumo V710 R-compound tires (that I won at another competition) and slapped them on some 18x11 front/18x12 rear wheels and ran it in TTS. And the car was instantly fast. By 2013 we were on 315mm A6s and I never looked back.

 

DSC_9935-M.jpg

 

We also run street compound tires on this car in another series - the Optima/USCA/Goodguys events. We've won at those events, too, and recommend the BFG Rival 200 treadwear tires for that kind of competition. The Global Time Attack series also has different classes almost completely based on treadwear: street, limited and unlimited. We have raced our car in GTA and did well on A6s in Unlimited (win) but their Street class has a size limit of 285, which is too small for this big, heavy car (we run 335 BFG Rivals for street tire competitions).

 

_DSF2888-M.jpg

 

SCCA has jumped on the 200 treadwear bandwagon with their new "Classic American Muscle" class, which you can run a late model Detroit built car in as well. They are pretty late to the party, but they are only using this format for Autocross (Solo), not their Club Trials or Club Racing classes. We've also run our TT3 car at SCCA Club Trials, and won there - on Hoosier A6s.

 

Long story short, if you want play in TT competitively, you gotta bring the best tires you can afford. Street tires are fun but they don't get it done. If you have any questions about TT, street tires, race tires, or anything at all feel free to give us a shout.

 

edit: Some Texas area TT racers have suggested having a separate street tire class, and there are more than a few competitors who would do this. These are the folks who concentrate on GTA, USCA, Optima, or Goodguys series on 200+ treadwear tires, but want to get seat time and competition in NASA. Hop on the Texas forum and put that out there.

 

Good luck,

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in your end of the grid Terry yes, the best tire availible is pretty much required. Well, technically the "best" tire would be some sort of non-DOT actually...

 

at my end of the grid it's a bit different, there's variety and trade offs that seem to work out even, letting the competitor make their own choices.

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in your end of the grid Terry yes, the best tire availible is pretty much required. Well, technically the "best" tire would be some sort of non-DOT actually...

 

at my end of the grid it's a bit different, there's variety and trade offs that seem to work out even, letting the competitor make their own choices.

 

that depends on track and traffic. Some tracks will not afford you the luxury of enough laps to get slicks up to temp. So you end up putting car and self at risk to try and get heat in them as very few slicks are faster than A's on lap 1 and sometimes 2. Higher class cars catch lap traffic by 3 many places.

 

that being said I would like to see a modifier for street tires to draw more entries. So for example a TT1 car could be TT2 on a R888 or similar and TT3 on a PSS. ETC. I think that would be somewhat competitive. Otherwise its useless because people wont sign up if they dont think they can win. Maybe have a limit on tire size as well and an additional penalty for AWD. I'm just throwing ideas out. Obviously it would need to be researched. However it would blur the lines on competitors policing each other.

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  • 2 weeks later...

In my opinion the TT directors and Hoosier have taken care of this for TTB-TTF. The A7 is currently a +22 tire and it is supposed to be more consistent over more heat cycles. Once the supply of A6's run out and assuming they leave the points alone for the following years, the points hit for autocross tires compared to street tires should be close to what they should be for the letter classes (over one full class). As far as TT1-3, I believe there should be mod factors for street tires and the autocross tires that are appropriate. I am glad I am not one of the group responsible for figuring this out.

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TTE-Miata or Honda/Acura

TTD-BMW or FRS/BRZ or Miata

TTC-BMW

TTB-BMW

TT3-Corvette

 

Fixed

 

The Nitto NT01 are fast and wear well and stick to the cords. So if you're careful about spending points and with car prep, not all cars need Hoosiers to win.

 

If you want low consumable cost (tires, brakes, gas), light weight cars are easy on the wallet.

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