JVR127 Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 I don't really want to go into too many details of how everything went down but instead I will like to find a solution so this doesn't happen anymore. This is very frustrating to say the least but something has to happen. Enjoy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TowDawg Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 The first couple of laps didn't really convince me because you were coming through 7 on the bumper of other of cars and he might have had a clean run. The difference in speed down the back straight can be HUGE from just 1 mph difference through 7. HOWEVER, the later vids showing you both coming through 7 side-by-side (actually a slight advantage to your position) and watching him pull you like that definitely tells the story. I race in a spec class, so I'm not familiar with the whole point system, but is it possible that he used points for more power or less weight, while you used them for something else? If both cars are supposed to have identical hp/tq AND weight (not necessarily hp TO wt, as that can still make a difference in speed on the straights), gearing, etc, and you're at the absolute optimum balance, then he's definitely got something going on. Did he get pulled for the dyno or scales during impound at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 It seems visually impressive. Is your car at the HP/Wt. limit for GTS-2? Did you contact Scott during the weekend so he could put a GPS unit in it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) Double post... Edited September 5, 2014 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JVR127 Posted September 4, 2014 Author Share Posted September 4, 2014 It seems visually impressive. Is your car at the HP/Wt. limit for GTS-2? Did you contact Scott during the weekend so he could put a GPS unit in it? I ran the car 50lbs over weight for the event because the scales were not consistent. Car I was driving made 209hp and 205 TQ at the events Dyno... Minimum weight of 3040lbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 It seems visually impressive. Is your car at the HP/Wt. limit for GTS-2? Did you contact Scott during the weekend so he could put a GPS unit in it? I ran the car 50lbs over weight for the event because the scales were not consistent. Car I was driving made 209hp and 205 TQ at the events Dyno... Minimum weight of 3040lbs So, doing the math, if he weighed the same as you, he could have around 6 more HP and still be legal - not much. Maybe his aero is a bit more slippery as well, but it still seems more impressive than one would expect. The process for this would then be to raise your concerns to the series director, hopefully with some video to back your point, during the event. Armed with this knowledge, your series director has some options to look into things. That is the process in place to deal with these concerns. Before you ask for a way to make sure this doesn't happen in the future, it needs to be established that the current process/options were exhausted, and failed in some way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JVR127 Posted September 5, 2014 Author Share Posted September 5, 2014 It seems visually impressive. Is your car at the HP/Wt. limit for GTS-2? Did you contact Scott during the weekend so he could put a GPS unit in it? I ran the car 50lbs over weight for the event because the scales were not consistent. Car I was driving made 209hp and 205 TQ at the events Dyno... Minimum weight of 3040lbs So, doing the math, if he weighed the same as you, he could have around 6 more HP and still be legal - not much. Maybe his aero is a bit more slippery as well, but it still seems more impressive than one would expect. The process for this would then be to raise your concerns to the series director, hopefully with some video to back your point, during the event. Armed with this knowledge, your series director has some options to look into things. That is the process in place to deal with these concerns. Before you ask for a way to make sure this doesn't happen in the future, it needs to be established that the current process/options were exhausted, and failed in some way. Concerns were raised, this is just the aftermath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Scott Good is a good man (no pun intended) - it is probably best you pursue this with him offline. It is problematic to solve these things in an open forum without flames, innuendo, and forum wars, which is probably why you are trying to avoid specifics. If you want to pursue it here, I'd at least advise making some constructive thoughts on how to fix this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Dyno compliance is not the only method to ensure compliance, correct? What about the GPS compliance check that was added to the rules? Even without NASA's box installed during the event, it is possible to run the math on the acceleration numbers from an in-car logger. How about an inspection/mild tear down? I'm not sure about the OBD II datalogging capabilities of an E36, but other OBD II vehicles allow logging (via a tuning dongle) of various engine parameters (MAP, TPS, coolant, RPM, spark timing, injector duty cycle) and it is relatively easy to log those on the track and compare to the values produced on the dyno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 GPS based units were available for use for compliance at this event, but I don't know if they were used here. Tear down is less useful, as the GTS rules only regulate HP/Wt, not how you get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 A tear down/inspection could be useful for determining how you are getting "there" on the track vs the dyno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 If a clear discrepancy is found, maybe, though"getting there" is often accomplished through software. It's awefully easy for this stuff to become a witch hunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Any reason not to inspect the tune as well? The spec class winners seem to be able to put up with their invasive post-race inspection and I don't think there is anything in the GTS rules that prevents taking a more in-depth look beyond a simple dyno test. It lends legitimacy to the results, which goes a long way in keeping participants and attracting new ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Any reason not to inspect the tune as well?The spec class winners seem to be able to put up with their invasive post-race inspection and I don't think there is anything in the GTS rules that prevents taking a more in-depth look beyond a simple dyno test. It lends legitimacy to the results, which goes a long way in keeping participants and attracting new ones. LOL, I've had to tear down my own motor to comply with inspection parameters I set (my gig is 944 Spec Director). Inspecting this stuff seems like a good idea, but in practice, enforceability is tough, especially with out a "Spec" ruleset to spell this stuff out. In 944 Spec, I can compare an ECU toa reference stock one visually, and on the dyno. If I want to get ambitious, I could even compare checksums. In GTS, what reference do you inspect a tune by, what would make it illegal? I should make it clear I am only speaking in general terms here. I know nothing about the OP's concerns, other than what is on the video & and what he's expressed. I have had years of rule making, however, and know how critical it is that rules remain practical, and enforceable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 (edited) Damn, double post. I need to be more patient Edited September 5, 2014 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Michael G. Posted September 5, 2014 Members Share Posted September 5, 2014 GTS requires Dyno Declaration Form to be submitted alongside with the Dyno, which should clearly state in details if the ECU has multiple maps, describe methods of adjustments, switch locations, etc. The first question is what was was declared, vs. what was in the car. For that reason alone visible inspection at the impound would be helpful. Michael G. NE GTS Dir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 I would look for anomalies in the tune, at certain TPS, MAP or coolant temp levels, in case a voltage clamp or something similar was activated while dyno'ing. Nothing may show up in the tune in a situation where the ECU is force fed an artificially low coolant temp (eg 75F), but you could log the ECU on the dyno to confirm there is nothing odd. I'm not suggesting that for everyone, but in the case of a protest or for top finishers, it would be helpful in dealing with protests or confirming results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Certainly making sure the car in question is consistant with the declaration form is clear and simple to do, no question. I'm no computer expert but, I'd imagine it's very difficult to write an actionable rule around software code, especially within the limits of available tech personnel. Finding "odd" things is not someting one can enforce a DQ over. You have to be able to write a rule ahead of time that is specific, has a measureable threshold, and doesn't accidentally DQ unintended parties. Then repeat for all available software "cheats". In a situation like this, I'd be most interested in GPS information here. While the resolution of GPS genereated HP is not great (hard to account for aero, wind, drafts, elevation change, etc), it should be able to show significant outliers on a given day. As I'm stretching outside of my home turf here, I'll stand down now. My main point is that it is easy to arouse suspicions, but *much* harder to gather and adjudicate reliable proof of cheating. Also, I often seen situations where good drivers are publically crucifed for doing what others deem impossible within the rules, and it is important to "first do no harm." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 I think you guys need to be ready to embrace more flexibility and creativity in your rule enforcement, not less, to deal with the increasingly complex ECUs that enable all kinds of questionable things. E36 ECUs are child's play compared to the modern ones, or of course, a powerful standalone ECU. I would think the best way to avoid a public crucifixion is to prevent everyone from getting riled up in the first place through strong enforcement of the rules and the flexibility to snoop around if there is a questionable situation. The GTS2 competitor in question can provide the raw acceleration data as he posted a pdf of the (impressive) speed trace from his datalogger. I'm not sure if has provided the raw long G/speed data or if so, how that analysis is coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 The GTS2 competitor in question can provide the raw acceleration data as he posted a pdf of the (impressive) speed trace from his datalogger. Link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 impressive is relative (and is a reference to the olive trace's increase in slope near top speed), but in any case here it is https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0gXucaqzPflb2Zyd2hDcWhwczA/edit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 In isolation, hard to make much of this. The title is "before and after aero". There is a separation of the curves around 90, when aero starts to make a difference. Below that, acceleration curves seems similar. Now we need a reference, and then a decision on what is a significant difference (beside the I know it when I see it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) ... Edited September 15, 2014 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I'd say this graph is worth less than that, it is merely an indication that the competitor has the relevant data for the sessions in question...which could be analyzed and compared as one indicator of compliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benzito86 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 While I think that detuning should come with other restrictions (such as tire size etc...) and I think it is creating a lot of problems in the class, the problem is that electronic detuning does not prove that a competitor is compliant to the rules. As we all know, a dyno sheet doesnt really mean much.. In my opinion, the only way a DETUNED car should be legal for a class (and this includes e36 in gts2 and e46 in gts 3) is by implementing a mechanical restrictor. Then they could do what ever you wanted with the software, and you can only push so much air, and the biggest thing is there are NO after dyno, in car or other adjustments. It is what is. just my .02 cents Benzito Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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