TT and safety gear.

[n80]

I've been dabbling with the idea of giving TT a try in the near future. 350Z, TTC, only room for a few mods. I just want to get my feet wet. Probably don't have the skill or money to be real competitive for a while.

 

Anyway, my current concern is safety equipment. I currently have a race seat but use OEM belts. No cage. No harness bar. The car, for the next year or two, has to double as a DD. I've pretty much explored every angle of the process of getting a roll bar in my car. My height is an issue there. It can be done, sort of, but requires a custom build and it is very expensive to do right. More than I can afford right now. A harness bar is an option but with all the well known and often discussed drawbacks.

 

I've ridden with a few NASA instructors in TT1-3 Corvettes with harness bars. I've seen some time trialers with stock interiors. What I'm wondering here is what most people who drive in the lower TT classes have in regard to safety gear in their daily driven TT cars.

 

My other question is this: If a roll bar is impractical/impossible and I decide against a harness bar, is their value in investing in an R3 device used with the racing seat and OEM belts?

 

Thanks for any insight into this.

[JMURACN]

IMHO...

 

Maybe i'm wrong, but the R3s that i have seen REQUIRE harnesses to work properly.

 

Race Seat + OEM Belts (no roll bar) = bad idea... in a roll over the seat will keep you upright and most OEM seats are made to collapse so your head and the roof dont meet.

 

stock seats + roll bar = bad idea... see above and the CCRs requirements for a seat back brace is there for a reason. stock seats will collapse into the harness bar and put your head/neck/back at risk.

 

Harness bar = bad joojoo IMHO... sure it takes the "right" hit to make them fail, but i've seen too many wrecks that would make them fail. i would never get into a car with just a harness bar.

 

Safety, is basically an all or nothing proposition. either go for seat + harness + roll bar + head and neck... or stay OEM. stay with that is designed to work TOGETHER and not patch it together.

[n80]

Unless something has changed, R3 devices are designed to be used with no more than a 3 point harness. They are self contained and do not rely on harnesses or seat belts to function properly. (I cannot speak to how safe they actually are; I'm interested in opinions.)

 

Race seat and OEM belts should not be a major issue since OEM belts allow the driver to slide downward if the roof is compressed.

 

OEM belts+roll bar=bad idea. Agreed. No plans for that.

 

Harness bars being bad joojoo? I also agree because of the roof collapse issue. As far as impact failures that is just due to poor quality equipment. There is a tubular unit for the 350Z made of the same material as roll bars. Quite beefy and no more likely to fail than the harness bar of a roll cage. But still, no rollover protection.

 

And I agree about safety systems. My main question is more of a poll question. Everyone has their theory and comfort level with safety systems. I'd like to know what people are actually using. I can probably get a better idea by just looking in TT cars at the next event. I know for a fact that not every TT car is caged. I guess maybe I should just be asking how TTA-F drivers have cages or roll bars. And maybe that isn't even a good question. Maybe no one runs TT in daily drivers these days.

[shuko]

There is no specific requirement (other than OEM is installed and functional) for safety gear in TT. Bone stock interior and safety systems are OK, provided you aren't in a convertible that requires a roll bar. Plenty of people run their daily driver in TT; heck, SOME have been known to drive a rental car from the airport... You see full cages and whatnot because lots of people drive race-legal cars in TT, or are in the process of building a race car, or just want the safety of a cage.

 

As you look to make the car "more safe" you must consider the system as a whole, which it sounds like you're doing. Plenty of things that seem like a good idea can actually be quite dangerous. There is occasional talk of having any HPDE or TT car with modified safety gear go through race tech, which is a great idea IMO, since there are always a few examples of what NOT to do with safety gear at a given event.

[Emmanuel B.]

Not to throw a wrench in your poll options, but OEM seat + OEM belts + R3 would theoretically be the safest combination without details on what seat you have.

There's no substitute for having full safety gear (roll cage, race seat, hans, 5/6 pt harness, suit etc.) especially if you're going to attempt timed competition. All those components are designed to work together. My advice would be to call Ron at Discovery Parts Professional Racing Safety Experts - (706) 344-1235. He'll provide the expert guidance you seek

Edited September 10, 2014 by Guest

[ILIKETODRIVE]

IMO: Safety jumps should be like a light switch; all or nothing. After reading up on the R3, I would use that in conjunction with the factory 3-point and seat and nothing else OR continue using a race seat and add a 4-point roll bar and 5/6-point harness and HANS/R3/etc.

[n80]

Thanks guys. Given my budget constraints and the need to keep the car a daily driver it looks like my options are this:

 

1. Full OEM and nothing else.

2. OEM system + race seat (it is the lowest end FIA rated Sparco, tube frame).

3. Full OEM + R3.

4. OEM system + race seat + R3.

 

Number 3 is probably the logical choice based on known factors.

 

However, the race seat significantly improves my car control because with the OEM seat I have to brace with both knees and the steering wheel to stay in place in the corners. The race seat might provide marginally better support in a side impact too. It also sits a little lower than the OEM seat providing better roof/head clearance. These factors make me lean toward #4 a bit.

 

Other opinions welcome but it looks like I should be looking for an R3, maybe a used one. The price on those things is nuts.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

I paid nearly that much for my carbon HANS. Just sayin' lol.

[kbrew8991]

...the HANS that depends on an interference fit between the belts and your body to work....

 

I'm glad I ponied up and went with the full carbon R3. That thing has held up great through 6 seasons thus far....

[JMURACN]

Race seat and OEM belts should not be a major issue since OEM belts allow the driver to slide downward if the roof is compressed.

 

Harness bars being bad joojoo? I also agree because of the roof collapse issue. As far as impact failures that is just due to poor quality equipment. There is a tubular unit for the 350Z made of the same material as roll bars. Quite beefy and no more likely to fail than the harness bar of a roll cage. But still, no rollover protection.

 

 

the seat may or may not allow you to slide down... the belt isnt the limiter here. if its got a deep bucket or mounted at a steep angle you are hosed and you arent sliding out of that but your head and the roof WILL meet. take your stock seat and lock it in normal driving position... pick it up and turn it upside down. it usually unlocks the back so as the car starts to roll you are on your way back.

 

harness bars... any distortion to the B pillar compromises the bar. this can be a direct or indirect contact. will a roll bar the B pillar is a crumple zone before the roll bar is effected.

 

edit: just becasue you are allowed to go out on track with these combos doesnt mean its the safest option.

 

i've spent over 12 years in the tech shed, ive seen the stuff that works and ive seen the stuff that fails. harness bars and race seats without harness/rollbar are very bad ideas.

[troyguitar]

I have run daily driven cars (VW GTI in TTD, Audi S4 in TTC, and now Z06 in TT3) with stock interior and stock belts with just a karting neck brace. I'm not claiming it's smart, it's just what I do. I'm leaning toward a better-supported but still "street" style seat replacement in my car to help hold me in place around corners, but have not yet decided. I'd never heard of the R3 before, looks interesting.

[n80]

Someone mentioned Ron at Discovery Parts. He is an excellent resource and if I decide to get a new R3 I'll get it from Ron. One time I ordered a package deal on tow straps. He called my house, asked what type of car and trailer I had and made a different AND cheaper recommendation that worked out a lot better. That is service!

[Diller]

There are a few reclining "sport" seats that may fit the bill for helping you stay planted in the car with a stock 3 point belt. As others have said, safety is a system and should be done as such. I would just put money away until you can do the roll bar/cage, fixed seat, and harnesses all in one go.

[braknl8]

There are a few reclining "sport" seats that may fit the bill for helping you stay planted in the car with a stock 3 point belt. As others have said, safety is a system and should be done as such. I would just put money away until you can do the roll bar/cage, fixed seat, and harnesses all in one go.

 

George!! Glad to see you contemplating TT. I agree with the above, with the exception that you could go ahead and get the R3.

 

For staying planted, it won't do much for braking but a lot of folks say they like angel wing pads: http://angelwingstech.com/store/

[n80]

Chris, I think I'm going to do a couple more DE4 events and then see if I can get checked off for TT. I think a set of R1s is all I can do to the car and stay in TT-C. And even then at CMP I'd probably barely be competitive but I'd just like to give it a try.....and since sometimes in TT-C there are only one or two entries I might still get a 'podium' or two!

 

I think if and when I do TT I'll spring for an R3. I'm not sure I'm too worried about the seat issue. The top of the OEM seat, not including the headrest is about the same height as the top edge of the door so the collapsibility of the OEM seat probably does not come into play that much. If the car is crushed below the door sills I'm not sure any of the OEM system would help much. The race seat sits even lower. It is my understanding, possibly wrong, that it is the 3 pt OEM belts that allow you body to slump down or to the side in a roof collapse.

 

The cloth OEM seats are grippy and well bolstered and I doubt an aftermarket reclining seat would be much better. If I decide that the race seat presents too much risk I'll stick with the OEM seats. John Evans recommended knee pads for low-rent 350Z drivers and they do work. My left knee is rubbed raw after a track weekend without the pads. I also use a CG Lock which helps a little.

 

If I'm still doing this in two years I'll probably gut the car and put in a roll bar or cage.

[hhdinyuma]

Since this is a poll, here is what I use in my car for TTD:

 

2013 Scion FRS

Race Seat

6 Point Harness

Harness Bar

HANS, HANS, HANS

 

I have been through a crash that totaled my car and this same setup provided all the protection I needed. The air bags fired but didn't even come close to me. Granted, all crash scenarios are different, but I am very comfortable with my setup. I am ultra secure for driver position and comfort and feel safer than with the OEM solution.

 

My experience talking with seat manufacturers is that they do not recommend using an OEM seatbelt setup with their race seats. I would check with your Race Seat manufacturer and get their specific recommendation on whether or not it is safe to use the OEM belts. Might impact more than just safety in an accident, like insurance coverage. I would also recommend checking with the head scrutineer in your region and make sure they will be OK with the Race Seat/OEM Lapbelt setup. I know there have been some issues out here with tech for cars that have similar installations.

 

In your case I would recommend completely stock with the R3. That way you are taking advantage of a very well designed and tested safety system that should provide maximum protection in most foreseeable situations. Use the CG Lock and pads or whatever to keep you from sliding around until you are ready to take the next step.

 

Be safe and good luck with the car. 2015 NASA East Coast Nationals are at VIR next year and we need more TT drivers to show up!

[Diller]

A lot of people are recommending the R3 but I would strongly recommend trying one out before you lay down the cash for one. Some people find them very uncomfortable while others love them.