Tire rules in TT123 - Any interest in expansion?

[troyguitar]

Currently in TT123 you either run slicks or you run Hoosier A6's - soon to be A7's.

 

In TTB-F there are bonuses for running anything slower than an A7, is there any interest or chance of seeing something similar in TT123?

 

The only argument for the current rules to continue to exist unchanged that I have seen is "You should run Hoosiers anyway because of contingencies."

 

My counter argument is: Maxxis contingency is better and the tire is cheaper and lasts longer. If we're going to use contingencies to make the rules, we should make the RC-1 the optimal tire to run.

 

Am I the only person in the country who would choose to use something besides an A7 if an option were available in the rules?

 

My proposal would be to split "DOT" tires into 2 groups, "DOT <100 UTQG" and "DOT 100+ UTQG" - putting the 2 best contingency tires as the likely 2 fastest tires to run: Hoosier A7's in the first and Maxxis RC-1's in the second. This way everyone could still compete for tires, but we'd have an option to run something that's not as high priced and quick wearing as the A7. Thoughts?

 

Is there a possible downside to this that I'm missing?

[modernbeat]

Troy, the issue with TT123 is that there is no real limits on tire size or car modifications. The only real rules are how much total power, and how much total weight. So that the only carrot you can offer someone that wants to run a less competitive tire is less weight (or more power). By the time you reduce enough weight, or add enough power to make other tires like the BFG Rival competitive (not as sticky as the R1 or RC-1) you now have two VERY different types of cars running which creates some course dependency.

 

FWIW, I'd love to see a modifier to make 200 treadwear tires competitive, but I know that it would add to the controversy about course dependency every time a street tire won, or didn't win.

[Bnjmn]

How much longer does the RC-1 last? How much does it slow down over its life? How many cars can actually fit an RC-1, given that there are all of 9 (or 11, depending on the Maxxis website) sizes available?

 

Who says the rules are based around contingencies or that people wouldn't be all over the BFG R1S or the Hankook C91 if they had TT contingencies?

[sperkins]

Haven't we already had this discussion?

[braknl8]

 

A6. ~300 laps at road Atlanta. Set tt3 record with around 100, I believe. C6 Z06 with z07 option. A7's are supposed to last longer aren't they? Don't believe all the hype about running A's for two sessions and trashing them.. ..unless you know my shipping address.

[troyguitar]

Haven't we already had this discussion?

 

No. There was a discussion about cost.

 

I have seen no discussion about actually changing the rules to allow anything but the absolute fastest "DOT" tires (or the best slicks in the world) to have a chance at winning.

 

What exactly is the argument against there being a mod factor for something other than the stickiest tire with a DOT stamp?

 

The number of laps you or anyone else might be able to put on an A6 is not relevant. Why can't we choose to run a faster car with slower tires?

 

What negative consequence would result from allowing this choice?

[braknl8]

Haven't we already had this discussion?

 

No. There was a discussion about cost.

 

the reason other than cost to run a street tire would be (because as racers we like to go slow)?

 

I have seen no discussion about actually changing the rules to allow anything but the absolute fastest "DOT" tires (or the best slicks in the world) to have a chance at winning.

 

What exactly is the argument against there being a mod factor for something other than the stickiest tire with a DOT stamp?

 

There were 4 pages of arguments in the last thread...

 

The number of laps you or anyone else might be able to put on an A6 is not relevant. Why can't we choose to run a faster car with slower tires?

 

You're correct now that I understand that cost has no place in this thread. that was a nod to cost over a top-shelf shaved street tire and that's not what we are talking about...nevermind on that one.

 

Question: from a "driver" perspective, what skill does it take to add heads, cam, turbo, blower...whatever your flavor, and mash the gas on a straight? Will you really feel like you've accomplished something (honest question)?

 

A street tire mod could have possibly worked in tta I just think there's too much development in the tt3-1 cars these days. just my opinion, of course.

[troyguitar]

I would argue that it requires more driver control to extract the best lap time from a fast car with low traction than from a slow car with high traction.

 

Look at it this way: Which scenario separates lap times more by driver talent, wet or dry?

 

The most fun/challenging time I have ever had is racing in the rain, second most fun/challenging was racing classes that spec'd a relatively hard tire.

 

Beyond being subjectively more fun/challenging to drive, it is objectively less hard on the chassis/suspension/brakes. We're mostly running street cars in TT that were NOT engineered to have the level of grip that even a 245 A7 is going to offer and it can create a world of problems on many cars.

 

Again: What is the downside to allowing this choice?

[Davidss]

FWIW, I'd love to see a modifier to make 200 treadwear tires competitive

Great idea!

[fsmtnbiker]

I'd like to see the excluded tire sizes eliminated (245 and 275 BFGs, 255 Hoosiers.) They're equally available to everyone. And if you've seen the 245 A7... it makes the 245 BFG look cute.

 

I have zero interest in running on or making street tires competitive... But I can see why some would like it. I've driven my TT3 car on street tires and it's not quite painful but pretty close. It would be downright terrifying to drive a fast car (TT2/1) on street tires.

[heavychevy]

I like the idea.

[heavychevy]

I like the idea.

[heavychevy]

I like the idea.

[Cobra4B]

Dez.... can't tell... do you like the idea or not?

[troyguitar]

I'd like to see the excluded tire sizes eliminated (245 and 275 BFGs, 255 Hoosiers.) They're equally available to everyone. And if you've seen the 245 A7... it makes the 245 BFG look cute.

 

I have zero interest in running on or making street tires competitive... But I can see why some would like it. I've driven my TT3 car on street tires and it's not quite painful but pretty close. It would be downright terrifying to drive a fast car (TT2/1) on street tires.

 

Calling 100UTQG stuff "street tires" is a little bit of a stretch. They're good for driving to the track and back, that's about it.

[philstireservice]

Yep, racing on "true" street tire would be dangerous and just plain not fun!

[brkntrxn]

Like the others said, to run a true 200+ treadwear tire in TT3-TTU is just nuts. Not only will you be "in the way" on the corners, you are going to be overdriving the crap out of the car to get the best time possible. On top of that, the significant four wheel drifts and spinning off the corners are going to eat through those street tires faster than you think. Add on top of that shaving the tires to prevent tread squirm and you are looking at the same expenses as just running A6s or R6s. And if you don't shave them, you are going to be chunking the treads so quickly that the tires will be crap in short order. Another variable is the change in brake pad compounds and the testing to figure out the best match to the street tires to prevent flatspots in the brake zones.

 

To give you an idea, I have to restrain myself from driving my daughters Miata on street tires. Why? Because I can overdrive them so quickly that I start abusing the tires a half a lap in. Imagine adding 200hp to the equation and it gets worse.

 

I also have a LOT of experience driving 400+rwhp race cars on 200+ treadwear tires. While it is fun and cost effective to drive at 7/10s, to drive at the limit is hair raising and a LOT of work. Doable yes, but more crazy than you think. And you'll look like a wildman doing it.

 

I for one would not consider it. But best of luck to those that think it would be cheaper.

[troyguitar]

Like the others said, to run a true 200+ treadwear tire in TT3-TTU is just nuts. Not only will you be "in the way" on the corners, you are going to be overdriving the crap out of the car to get the best time possible. On top of that, the significant four wheel drifts and spinning off the corners are going to eat through those street tires faster than you think. Add on top of that shaving the tires to prevent tread squirm and you are looking at the same expenses as just running A6s or R6s. And if you don't shave them, you are going to be chunking the treads so quickly that the tires will be crap in short order. Another variable is the change in brake pad compounds and the testing to figure out the best match to the street tires to prevent flatspots in the brake zones.

 

To give you an idea, I have to restrain myself from driving my daughters Miata on street tires. Why? Because I can overdrive them so quickly that I start abusing the tires a half a lap in. Imagine adding 200hp to the equation and it gets worse.

 

I also have a LOT of experience driving 400+rwhp race cars on 200+ treadwear tires. While it is fun and cost effective to drive at 7/10s, to drive at the limit is hair raising and a LOT of work. Doable yes, but more crazy than you think. And you'll look like a wildman doing it.

 

I for one would not consider it. But best of luck to those that think it would be cheaper.

 

...the suggestion in the OP was 100+, not 200+. Toyo RA1/R888, Maxxis RC-1 type of tires - like the ones already being used for years in some race classes. If they can last a whole race on AI cars, they can last 2 laps on a TT3 car.

[brkntrxn]

Ahh, gotcha.

 

I am a proponent of 100 tread wear tires... Loved running NT01s on lots of cars.

[philstireservice]

Well all of those are R Comps. Those would work just fine.

 

 

Street tires don't like heat, hence why they don't work well

R Comps like heat (need) to work, hence why they need a lap or two to get grip

[troyguitar]

Well all of those are R Comps. Those would work just fine.

 

Right they would work just fine - if they did not get classed as identical to a Hoosier A7.

[Tcal]

I say leave it alone for now. First of all, TTU12 in the great lakes region has almost no participation after the last rule changes. And like someone said earlier..."most" people who build TTU12 (maybe 3) spend a lot of money on their car to make it fast...they're going to want the fastest tire. And to have to take points for the fastest tire in the fastest classes is just silly.

 

Also, I run TT2 and only buy one set of new slicks per season. I have found at least 4 sources of used tires that are a DEAL! I buy plenty of sets of those for only $200 shipped on average and use them 90% of the time. I only use the new slicks for my unicorn session.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

And like someone said earlier..."most" people who build TTU12 (maybe 3) spend a lot of money on their car to make it fast...they're going to want the fastest tire. And to have to take points for the fastest tire in the fastest classes is just silly.

 

Exactly. *Most* is not *all*. And there are no points in TTU123.

 

I think the point of changing the tire adjustments is two-fold. First, faster tires are worth more points in B-F and therefore should have a higher adjustment in U-3 (continuity). Second, there would be no need to change what the adjustment is for the "faster" tires; just make the "slower" tires a lower adjustment. Therefore, everyone would not have to change a single thing UNLESS they are already running NT-01/RR/RC-1/etc and then they would actually have a little more PTW room to work with. This would allow some cars that are ballasting up or tuning down to meet PTW limits on "slower" tires to get a little bit more out of their car...just like a PTE car that ballasts up (with a corresponding reclass at a higher weight) to run an A6 or takes out the ballast (with a corresponding reclass that includes a *) and runs the RC-1.

[427R]

Being a novice in TT (moving into TT3 next season), this may be an out of context question, but I don't see any talk about the Toyo RR's. Are they not an option in TT?

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Being a novice in TT (moving into TT3 next season), this may be an out of context question, but I don't see any talk about the Toyo RR's. Are they not an option in TT?

They are. However, they are only available in limited sizes and Toyo doesn't offer the same kind of contingency that Maxxis and Hoosier and others offer for TT.