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UKRBMW

Is it just me or GTS numbers are dropping?

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UKRBMW

Just curious what the current view/numbers look like. I practically didn't run this year so don't have much to say. But moving to FL highlighted the fact that GTS here is practically nonexistent. But even looking at SE and MA events the numbers seem to be down. Haven't seen a GTS5 car in a year. GTS4 is lucky to get 2-3 at most races. Even 3 numbers seem to be declining.

 

Is everybody moving to a Spec class?

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sperkins

There shouldn't even be any GT classes. They should all be merged into ST/PT. Do we really have enough German cars to justify 6 GT classes? NASA has exploded into way too many classes in the last few years. Car counts per group suffer because of this.

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Arca_ex
There shouldn't even be any GT classes. They should all be merged into ST.

NASA has exploded into way too many classes in the last few years. Car counts per group suffer because of this.

 

Hey I finally found someone that has the same opinion hahaha.

 

Spec classes kill car counts and discourage people from moving to race group because most of the time to be in a popular class you have to buy a whole new car. I would have moved to race group almost a year ago, but in this region unless you have a 944 or a Honda for small bore then you'll be finishing first and last in your class every time.

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Sterling Doc

Reinventing your random car into a race car is one of the most expensive, frustrating, time consuming, and (sometimes) rewarding experiences you can have. Many people think they are up for that, but few are, financially or emotionally.

 

The $10-15 grand for a decent spec car, is the least of the problems. If Spec classes went away, fewer people would be racing, not more. Yes, there can be too many options, and sometimes you have to cull the herd - Spec Neon, Spec Focus, SE-R Cup, GTI Cup, etc. among them. If you want to build a class, you have to be a champion for it and lead. Otherwise, follow where the car counts are, and be happy.

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Sterling Doc

Ugh, computer seizure multipost.

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Sterling Doc

...

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Sterling Doc

....

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UKRBMW

Scott - I understand your argument, but ST is even worse. Even after all the changes there are barely people running. Making an argument to shut down GTS to help grow ST isn't really effective.

 

I'm really interested in responses from folks who were racing or planned to race in GTS but aren't doing it. Rule changing period will open soon which gives us a chance to make changes and maybe get some folks back. And since all of us aren't moving to NE we have to figure out a way to get more people in to GTS elsewhere.

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Michael G.

Some folks expected ST/PT to become universal one place for all, but that didn't happen for many objective reasons. Some classes have a better base in certain Regions, but commitment, leadership and support from the Reginal Dir makes a big difference. Here in the NE we didn't start with many cars in GTS back in '07, and we don't expect good things to stay the same unless will make a great effort to keep it going. I think the main issues are - stable rules, compliance, fairness, dialog with drivers. I understand it might be discouraging to be in the Region were very few cars running in the class, but there is no guarantee that once you join the popular class today by building the car of not your first choice, the class may suffer and drop in numbers for whatever reason soon after. I would encourage to go to GTS and help it grow locally. Regarding Rules, you can never satisfy All, but I hope we will continue improving and will bring some folks back.

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

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sperkins

Someone explain to me why car manufacturers from a specific country need to have their own series made up of 6 classes?

 

Car Eligibility

 

Any vehicle of German manufacture meeting NASA CCR standards for competition is eligible for

competition. The vehicle must have originally been badged and assigned a VIN by one of the

following manufacturers:

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Arca_ex
Reinventing your random car into a race car is one of the most expensive, frustrating, time consuming, and (sometimes) rewarding experiences you can have. Many people think they are up for that, but few are, financially or emotionally.

 

The $10-15 grand for a decent spec car, is the least of the problems. If Spec classes went away, fewer people would be racing, not more. Yes, there can be too many options, and sometimes you have to cull the herd - Spec Neon, Spec Focus, SE-R Cup, GTI Cup, etc. among them. If you want to build a class, you have to be a champion for it and lead. Otherwise, follow where the car counts are, and be happy.

 

 

I would say buying a whole new car for race group is infinitely more frustrating. Look at the progression, most people going into race group are coming from TT, where the cars need minimal modifications to compete in race group. My car for example just needs a few safety items, it is already maxed out and dialed in for the PT class I would be competing in and it's less than 15 grand already. Moving from being somewhat competitive in TT to a spec series or a manufacturer/country of origin series is much more difficult IMO, even if you have the right car.

 

Anyways, I'm done. I guess I'm just sore about the subject since there is nobody to race with in my region, and in order to race I would have to buy a car that I don't even like.

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fox4life
There shouldn't even be any GT classes. They should all be merged into ST/PT. Do we really have enough German cars to justify 6 GT classes? NASA has exploded into way too many classes in the last few years. Car counts per group suffer because of this.

 

 

Couldn't agree with you more! Im not trying to encourage a GTS vs. ST/PT argument here. But how does having two different series, with 6+ classes each, and generally the same rule sets make sense? Especially when a GTS car can crossover into pt/st quite easily, but im not allowed to compete in GTS because i dont have a "German" car.

 

If the goal is more participation then allow more cars to compete, which pt/st does.

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UKRBMW

Guys - I understand all the frustration of folks in ST/PT and believe this has been discussed here more than enough times. I also believe there have been lots of input from folks who run in GTS to the leadership in ST but none of it seems to have made any difference in the rule set (maybe even the opposite with new penalty for 911 cars this year).

 

Point of this thread was to entice feedback from existing and past GTS competitors on the lack of recent participation. Based on the lack of response so far maybe I'm overblowing the issue.

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Eric W.

Alex, Im pretty sure racing in general is down.

 

However, we also lost a bunch of the BMWCCA/PCA crossover cars once people started building GTS cars to the limit.

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Michael G.

Alex,

 

I think we lost some drivers for a few reasons including the one Eric mentioned. Others could be related to issues with compliance enforcement and few being unhappy with certain parts of the Rule set. It is work on progress, and as long as we aware of the issues we can fix stuff. Truth to be told, we lost some, we gained more. Some Regions might be affected negatively and some positively.

Someone asked why 6 classes for German cars? The same reason is why 4 classes for a single Japanese maker. Germans make good sports cars and many drivers like compete in those - there is a market for it.

 

Jeremiah,

 

You are not exactly right stating that GTS car can crossover to ST/PT. To be correct - the rule set is different, and not to the GTS cars favor, so, yes, they can but hardly ever do. GTS has an open rules format principle with no penalties for many aspects and different ratios. I doubt ST will switch to GTS format, and sure GTS will not follow ST. Unfortunately, if you would like to race GTS today, you would need to acquire German car.

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

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UKRBMW

I disagree a bit with the "racing overall is down". I just went to my first SCCA event and they had 307 racing entries alone - no HPDE or TT. So it looks like racers are out there but they are making a choice not to run with us.

 

That's more or less the reason why I posted the question.

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Michael G.

SCCA never had strong DE program. It seems like they attempted to develop it recently to a little success. In some Regions SCCA racing programs are very weak as we'll, so it's not like they have a magic trick. They are traditionally strong with certain cars and classes and non-existent with others. I don't think there were too many German cars among 307 racing, since those were traditionally not classed very well. This year in the NE we had 30+ GTS entries at every race, so we must be doing something right somewhere. Again, racers are looking for seat time, value, fair and stable rules and compliance enforcement. If we can concentrate on those - they will come.

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

I disagree a bit with the "racing overall is down". I just went to my first SCCA event and they had 307 racing entries alone - no HPDE or TT. So it looks like racers are out there but they are making a choice not to run with us.

 

That's more or less the reason why I posted the question.

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UKRBMW

Michael - I hear ya. And I do see GTS numbers prospering in NE. However, you can't judge healthiness of a program based on one region. I'm trying to ask what we need as a group to continue to grow.

 

For example - entire GTS2 situation at Nationals created a lot of "this is why I don't want to go GTS" any more. After several HUNDRED posts and arguing there wasn't a single response from GTS leadership (at least not that I saw). All the Porsche guys are staying away due to tuning - just read RL to see their opinion and that's 50% of the cars we are trying to appeal. I'm simply asking if there is something we could be doing to help it.

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Michael G.

Alex,

Your concern is legitimate, but my point is that the GTS leadership is not in denial and not ignorant. We see problems and trying to address those, which sometimes is not easy to fix everything at once.

The issue with detuning and adjustable ECUs only came into picture relatively recently. I was raising the concern from very beginning, even before the problem became obvious. I think one of the reasons the GTS field is growing in our Region is the emphasis on compliance, from being strict with the paperwork to using black boxes and hiring our own GTS dedicated Dyno at certain events.

I think the key is to work on improvements in Rules, trying to keep the open format which attracted so many drivers to begin with, and keep implementing compliance check.

Regarding the Eastern Nationals and GTS 2 situation - I was not there, so can't reply properly, but knowing Scott Good, certain we don't hear the full picture here at Forum and hope he will reply at some point. My understanding that the car in question was DQd after all. Mistakes do happen, but as long as we learn from it, we should be OK.

The discussion on Rule changes is coming up and it is the time to work on improvements.

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

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zigspeed10

Here is the summary if you don't want to read.

 

-NASA has a class participation problem.

-Merging GTS and ST will help.

-Why not?

 

 

Again, racers are looking for seat time, value, fair and stable rules and compliance enforcement. If we can concentrate on those - they will come.

 

You are missing one very key element, Competition!!! Without competition compliance enforcement doesn't even matter. I believe you perception of the state of class participation may be off becasue you are in a region with a strong GTS field. Your region is an outlier, it's an exception to the norm across the rest of NASA. Your region's biggest concern may be compliance but other regions don't have any cars to enforce compliance on!!!

 

NASA has a true problem with class participation numbers in GTS and ST causing individuals to not show up because racing by yourself just isn't fun. I'm one of them, my region has a race next weekend and I will likely not go because there will not be anyone to race against and I know I'm not the only one in this situation. There are a few obvious factors that contribute to this problem. Lets list all of the German Spec classes that take away competitors from the GTS classes.

 

944 Spec, 986 Boxter, Spec 3, Spec E30, Spec E46

 

You have 6 GTS classes on top of 5 German spec classes. There are just not enough German racecars to fill all of the classes, but there is hope. ST has a very similar problem and they can help each other by merging together. The knee jerk reaction from a region with a successful GTS class is going to be Hell No!! Lets be honest with ourselves, what are the pros and cons of merging GTS and ST.

 

Pros: Increased competition, larger class sizes, better contingency for the competitors, class rules are very similar with similarly prepped cars, increased overall participation because people will show up knowing they won't be racing by themselves.

 

Cons: Small car modification required to comply with a merged rule set.

 

Please add to this list of pros and cons or any other factors of why it would be a good or bad idea.

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Michael G.

Zigspeed,

 

The biggest difference between GTS and ST is the core principle in the Rules Set. GTS was formed with the core concept of open rule format with minimum penalties for mods, and we are committed to continue that route. On the contrary ST/PT was formed with the idea of penalizing very nut and bolt, which GTS is objecting to. So, again, it is more than changing cars a little to be competitive. And yes, compliance matters when competition present, but that you have to help to grow. Following your principle, we can cancel all different classes - German, Japanese, American and bring all under one roof of ST/PT - why not after all?

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

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Arca_ex
Zigspeed,

 

The biggest difference between GTS and ST is the core principle in the Rules Set. GTS was formed with the core concept of open rule format with minimum penalties for mods, and we are committed to continue that route. On the contrary ST/PT was formed with the idea of penalizing very nut and bolt, which GTS is objecting to. So, again, it is more than changing cars a little to be competitive. And yes, compliance matters when competition present, but that you have to help to grow. Following your principle, we can cancel all different classes - German, Japanese, American and bring all under one roof of ST/PT - why not after all?

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

 

He didn't say anything about PT. That is a different animal.

 

ST is a pretty open rule format... there are a couple of mod factors and that's it. Where are you seeing this "every nut and bolt" criticism from? I don't see how ST is holding back any type of creativity at all when compared to GTS.

 

Zig has an excellent point.

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Bnjmn

It seems like you could have a separate rule set for German cars (ie GTS) and the rest of the world (ie ST) and everyone could play together relatively closely, based on laptimes I've seen.

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fox4life

Ive already stated my opinion. I agree with zigspeed, it could work. The GTS and ST rule sets arent THAT far apart from one another where it couldnt.

 

It should be considered, period. Again, Why not?

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