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Greg G.

2015 Proposed Tire Rules PT and TT (B-F)

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Greg G.

Below are the current proposed rules for 2015 TT and PT regarding tires. These ARE NOT FINAL RULES, and this can be considered a comment period. However, for those of you that have time-sensitive decisions to make with contingency tires, I would say that there is a high probability that the +22 and +10 point listings for those tires are solid.

 

A. TIRES:

1) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires: BFG R1S, Goodyear Eagle RS AC (autocross), Hankook Z214 (C90 & C91 compound only), Hoosier A7, Hoosier Wet DOT (if used in dry conditions—see section 5.6) +22

2) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires: Hoosier A6 +17

3) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires and those with a UTQG treadwear rating of

40 or less not listed otherwise in these rules: BFG R1, Goodyear Eagle RS,

Hankook Z214 (C71, C70, C51, C50), Hoosier R6 & R7 & SM7, Kumho V710 (note: Continental Tire Sportscar Challenge EC-Dry tires OK (225, 245, 275) +10

4) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires: Toyo Proxes RR, Hankook TD +7

5) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires and those with a UTQG treadwear rating of

50 to 130: Maxxis RC-1 (ex. Kumho V700, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, Nitto NT01, Pirelli

PZero Corsa, Toyo R888, Toyo RA-1, Yokahama A048, etc.) +6

6) DOT-approved (non-R-compound) tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 120-200

(examples: BFG g-Force Rival, Bridgestone Potenza RE070, Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec, Hankook R-S3, Kumho Ecsta XS, Toyo R1R, Yokohama Advan A046 & Neova AD08,) +2

7) Non-DOT-approved racing slicks +30 (of any origin--re-caps and re-treads are not permitted)

 

 

DELETE:

Note: Exception to 5.1.2:

1) The size 245 BFG R1 and R1S tires will be assessed a Modification Factor of +0.4 for tire

size (and not the listed +0.8) when calculating the “Adjusted Weight/Power Ratio”.

2) The size 275 BFG R1 and R1S tires will not be assessed a Modification Factor for tire size

(I.e. not the listed +0.4) when calculating the “Adjusted Weight/Power Ratio”.

 

 

This rule may also be deleted, but the determination will not be made until there are more available tire sizes for comparison with new the newer tire models:

 

Exception(s) to A.8): The Hoosier 255/35-18 (A6 & R6) will be assessed points based on its actual 275mm size (and not the 255mm listed on the sidewall)

 

 

 

8) The following tire sizes will be used as the base tire size for each Base Class for all

vehicles regardless of their OEM tire size(s) or their Final Competition Class. All

vehicles in a given base class may use this tire size (or smaller) without a points assessment:

 

PTB: 265mm, PTC: 255mm, PTD: 245mm, PTE: 235mm, PTF: 215mm,

PTG: 195mm, PTH: 175mm

 

Tire width points assessed or points credited are determined by the difference between the

width of the largest tire on the vehicle and the assigned base tire size as follows:

 

Equal to or greater than: 10mm +1, 20mm +4, 30mm +7, 40mm +10, 50mm +13,

60mm +16, 70mm +19, 80mm +22, 90mm +25, 100mm +28, 110mm +31

 

Equal to or less than: -10mm -1, -20mm -4, -30mm -7, DELETE -40mm -10

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kbrew8991

Consider leaving A6 and R6 at 2014 levels to allow people to burn through their existing inventory. Make those ineligible for Nationals if desired.

 

While we're in here; it never made sense to me that tires matter in the dry, but as soon as there's precipitation tires don't matter for classing and everyone can run whatever they want within the DOT category. Consider adding a table for points of differing wet-only tires and corresponding points values for each. That table only kicks in when a wet race is declared, similar to the existing procedures in 2014.

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Drew

Please consider ZERO points for 200+ tread wear street tires. I like the fact that there is still a place for me to take me street/track car on street tires straight to the track and have fun. SCCA has said NO. This is a great opportunity for NASA to step up and give regular people an outlet for their regular cars! Thanks.

 

Drew

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ILIKETODRIVE
Please consider ZERO points for 200+ tread wear street tires. I like the fact that there is still a place for me to take me street/track car on street tires straight to the track and have fun. SCCA has said NO. This is a great opportunity for NASA to step up and give regular people an outlet for their regular cars! Thanks.

 

Drew

Above 200 treadwear tires are 0 points. "120-200" treadwear tires are +2. If you're asking for 120-190 treadwear streets to be +2 and 200 and above to be 0 points then that is something...I doubt will happen lol.

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DarkGift

+22? What data was used to come up with that number? I have a hard time seeing how the compound change of an A7 (or R1S) is 12 points faster, or are we just trying to say we really don't want people running those tires?

 

Also about having the R7 and SM7 on the same line/same points. Jim Drago (two time national champion in SM, and Hoosier sponsored driver) wrote the following when testing the R7 vs SM7:

 

Hoosier asked me to test a set of new tires yesterday. The are the new R7, basically the sm7 compound with a new construction. They were really nice. I went out and hammered them for three sessions starting out as stickers. They never even thought of graining, zero wear and lap times were the same and conditions were hotter in each session where I would have expected to go slower. The tires were about a second faster than sm7 I was told. I would tend to agree.

 

Given the proposed points differential between the A7 and R7 and given that the SM7 is a second slower than the R7 (2.25 mile course), logic would dictate that the SM7 should only give +2. But we know they are roughly .5 faster than an RR so joking aside, they should probably be a +8 or +9.

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Smike
+22? What data was used to come up with that number? I have a hard time seeing how the compound change of an A7 (or R1S) is 12 points faster, or are we just trying to say we really don't want people running those tires?

 

I share this sediment. This drives away tire companies from NASA and allows for a company to command prices and demand. Our choice is a +7 Toyo, +10 Hoosier, or +22 tire? That is a class change - if you do not have the P/W, adding tires will not make up for that. And effectively no wet tires? If we cannot race in our class on a set of wet tires then we will just not race.

 

Post the testing data showing laps times on the same car, driver, and track. Otherwise, prepare for people to exit the series and possibly NASA.

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Ev
+22? What data was used to come up with that number? I have a hard time seeing how the compound change of an A7 (or R1S) is 12 points faster, or are we just trying to say we really don't want people running those tires?

 

I share this sediment. This drives away tire companies from NASA and allows for a company to command prices and demand. Our choice is a +7 Toyo, +10 Hoosier, or +22 tire? That is a class change - if you do not have the P/W, adding tires will not make up for that. And effectively no wet tires? If we cannot race in our class on a set of wet tires then we will just not race.

 

Post the testing data showing laps times on the same car, driver, and track. Otherwise, prepare for people to exit the series and possibly NASA.

Rule 5.6 says

5.6 Rain Competition/Racing:

In the event of rain and/or significant standing/running water on the track surface immediately before a competition session, the Race and/or Series Director may declare that competition session as a “Rain Session.” As well, during a race with less than half the laps completed, a Race Director may black flag the race, declare a “Rain Session/Race”, and then resume the race after the competitors have been given time to change to rain tires.

If the competition session is declared a "Rain Session" as above, any DOT-approved rain tire of the same size or smaller than listed on the Car Classification Form, as used in the prior dry competition session or race, can be used by the competitor in place of the dry tire. Tire points assessed will remain the same as listed on the “dry setup” Car Classification Form, regardless of whether or not the rain tire compound and size would otherwise yield fewer points or tire size points credit. Similarly, anti-roll (sway) bars may be loosened or removed, without a change in suspension points from the prior “dry setup” Car Classification Form. The purpose of this rule is to allow for these rain setup changes to the vehicles without: 1) the need for changes to the Car Classification Forms prior to the session, and 2) so that a competitor does not gain a points advantage by changing tire size, compound, or sway-bar setup.

 

This means you can use wet tires in the rain, but will be assessed the specified points if we tires are used in the dry.

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Houstonnw
Please consider ZERO points for 200+ tread wear street tires. I like the fact that there is still a place for me to take me street/track car on street tires straight to the track and have fun. SCCA has said NO. This is a great opportunity for NASA to step up and give regular people an outlet for their regular cars! Thanks.

 

Drew

Above 200 treadwear tires are 0 points. "120-200" treadwear tires are +2. If you're asking for 120-190 treadwear streets to be +2 and 200 and above to be 0 points then that is something...I doubt will happen lol.

 

I would ask that 120-199 treadwear streets to be +2 and exactly 200 and higher to be zero points. There are a lot of 200 treadwear tires available because of the SCCA classing.

 

It seems that would lower costs and attract more Time Trialers especially.

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kbrew8991

agree with the 120-199 cutoff, 200+ seems to be actual street tires and not super low mileage trackday only stuff in general.

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Smike
+22? What data was used to come up with that number? I have a hard time seeing how the compound change of an A7 (or R1S) is 12 points faster, or are we just trying to say we really don't want people running those tires?

 

I share this sediment. This drives away tire companies from NASA and allows for a company to command prices and demand. Our choice is a +7 Toyo, +10 Hoosier, or +22 tire? That is a class change - if you do not have the P/W, adding tires will not make up for that. And effectively no wet tires? If we cannot race in our class on a set of wet tires then we will just not race.

 

Post the testing data showing laps times on the same car, driver, and track. Otherwise, prepare for people to exit the series and possibly NASA.

Rule 5.6 says

5.6 Rain Competition/Racing:

In the event of rain and/or significant standing/running water on the track surface immediately before a competition session, the Race and/or Series Director may declare that competition session as a “Rain Session.” As well, during a race with less than half the laps completed, a Race Director may black flag the race, declare a “Rain Session/Race”, and then resume the race after the competitors have been given time to change to rain tires.

If the competition session is declared a "Rain Session" as above, any DOT-approved rain tire of the same size or smaller than listed on the Car Classification Form, as used in the prior dry competition session or race, can be used by the competitor in place of the dry tire. Tire points assessed will remain the same as listed on the “dry setup” Car Classification Form, regardless of whether or not the rain tire compound and size would otherwise yield fewer points or tire size points credit. Similarly, anti-roll (sway) bars may be loosened or removed, without a change in suspension points from the prior “dry setup” Car Classification Form. The purpose of this rule is to allow for these rain setup changes to the vehicles without: 1) the need for changes to the Car Classification Forms prior to the session, and 2) so that a competitor does not gain a points advantage by changing tire size, compound, or sway-bar setup.

 

This means you can use wet tires in the rain, but will be assessed the specified points if we tires are used in the dry.

 

I am not sure I have ever heard of a race being declared a "rain session". And we have not black flagged and swapped.

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Ev
I am not sure I have ever heard of a race being declared a "rain session". And we have not black flagged and swapped.
I have, every time it rains...

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circuitmstr

having the autocross compounds being made a ridiculous point value is a very good thing! It drastically lowers the coast to be competitive.

I don't understand why people are freaking out about it. Your not going to be at a disadvantage. other people wont be on those autocross tires either.

And it does not alienate any tire manufacturers. Those same companys build the race compounds... lol

 

I am one of "those guy" that frequently ran on sticker a6's. I wont be able to use them anymore and I am happy about it. They are really only good for one or two sessions.

 

now we will be on the r7 which is only marginally slower yet will stay consistent throught many more heat cycles.

 

I haven't used the r7 yet but the sm7 is the same compound. I practiced on 15 heat cycle sm7's at east nationals then threw on some stickers and to my surprise, there was zero measurable difference in grip or laptime... WOW

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RickyboobooJohnson

Greg -

 

Being that it has been decided that R7s are a +10 for 2015 are you revising the pt and tt rules changes for the remainder of 2014 to move them from +13 this year to align with the 2015 assessment?

 

Seems that we shouldn't have them at +13 for this year knowing the are assessed at +10 for next year.

 

Thanks!

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Greg G.
Greg -

 

Being that it has been decided that R7s are a +10 for 2015 are you revising the pt and tt rules changes for the remainder of 2014 to move them from +13 this year to align with the 2015 assessment?

 

Seems that we shouldn't have them at +13 for this year knowing the are assessed at +10 for next year.

 

Thanks!

No. The rules for '14 are as written. The new assessments do not start until the '15 season, and have not even been finalized in writing yet.

 

See you next week!

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cucamelsmd15

Any idea when these proposed rules might be made more official for those of us making offseason plans? Some of us are sub 60 days on our next event already.

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Red_5

I would like to see the 200 tread wear tires become 0 points too. Partly because the width of a 205 Hoosier R6, haven't seen an R7, is every bit as wide as a 225 Rival at least in Miata sizes. As it stands in E for example, to run a 205 R6 is only 2 points more than running a 225 Rival. That really doesn't make sense.

 

As a budget minded racer, I like the idea of the super sticky and expensive one use type tires being given lots of points. This is club racing, encouraging lower tire costs can bring more racers out. We all want higher car counts right?

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ILIKETODRIVE

Agreed.

 

I can run a 205 RC-1 and have 3 points to spare.

I can run a 205 RR and have 2 points to spare.

I can run a 225 200 treadwear street tire and have 1 point to spare.

I can remove my rear camber adjustment arms and run a 205 R7 with no points to spare.

 

Hmm...

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speedengineer
Agreed.

 

I can run a 205 RC-1 and have 3 points to spare.

I can run a 205 RR and have 2 points to spare.

I can run a 225 200 treadwear street tire and have 1 point to spare.

I can remove my rear camber adjustment arms and run a 205 R7 with no points to spare.

 

Hmm...

Or:

I can run a 205 200 treadwear street tire and have 7 points to spare.

 

I've seen some pretty quick times put down on street tires, and the extra 7 points allow for other modifications that if done right could make the car even faster. Could do an power adders, aero setup, or could use the 7 points for a PTx* dyno reclass, for more straight line speed. I've considered doing a street tire setup with aero several times, and I think at some tracks it could be a killer setup. The problem is at other tracks the aero doesn't buy you much, where as the high mechanical grip of a sticky tire helps at every track.

 

It's a tough call. Certainly you don't see many cars on the podium or at nationals running street tires. I guess the question is, is that because:

a) They're unfavorably classed, thus not used?

b) Nobody has built a top car specifically around street tires yet?

c) Racers simply like having real race tires?

d) They don't run them due to lack of contingency?

 

If the answer is A, then yes, we should probably bump them down to zero points.

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ILIKETODRIVE

Agreed. For my car, mechanical grip is king. I kinda set it up that way lol. I doubt for 1 lap (TT) or a race (PT) that my Integra @ 2400lbs would be faster with 205 shaved Kumho XS and 7 more points (or an * for more power on a reclass) vs 205 R7 and taking off rear camber adjusters. (My other 16 points are springs/shocks/sways/chassis brace for 1-inch rear sway/gears/LSD)

 

The 2 best examples in my car that I have:

 

My first weekend at Chuckwalla CCW on fairly used shaved Kumho XS I got down to a 2:11.0. After a few weekends there both directions with 205 RA-1 (eventually got down to a 2:06.4) I went back with slightly used SM6. First day I was in the high-2:05 range. Second day morning session I figured out what the hub-bub was with Hoosiers and did a 2:04.444. (Bench racing time; I bet if I went back on XS I could be in the 2:06 range at best. Fresh Hoosiers (heck, even just the new compound) would get me into high 2:03 for sure)

 

I've driven hundreds upon hundreds of laps at FIR West. My best time there is a 1:07-flat on fresh 205 R888. My best time there on fairly new 225 RS-3 is a 1:08.8.

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Greg G.

2015 PT Rules are posted on the NASA website.

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ja1217
2015 PT Rules are posted on the NASA website.

 

22) Modification, porting, or replacement of the BMT exhaust manifold or header(s) (includes

any/all other exhaust and catalytic converter modifications) +5

23) Any modification to the BTM exhaust piping and/or catalytic converter (includes muffler

modification or replacement) +3

24) Non-BTM or modified resonator(s) or muffler(s) only (no exhaust piping modifications) +1

 

Am I understanding the new exhaust rule changes correctly in that a car with a full exhaust system will have to take at least 8 points instead of the previous 5? If so, that really hurt my plans for the year (assuming the TT rules will have the same changes) and I imagine many others.

 

----EDIT----

I'm an idiot and missed the important section in the parentheses on my first couple read throughs about it including any/all other exhaust and cat modifications.

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Greg G.

22) only for full exhaust including headers +5.

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Dave Schotz
22) only for full exhaust including headers +5.

 

Is another way to look at this, as Headers are now only 1 point? Assuming most have removed cats' and changed their catback?

 

Thanks,

Dave

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hhdinyuma

The way I read it, 22) "modification, porting, or replacement of the exhaust manifold or headers" is +5. Not so sure this was intended this way but it looks like headers alone cost 3 more points than in the past?

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kbrew8991

yes but you get the rest of the exhaust for free now

 

the way the clarifications / definitions changed it became increasingly difficult to do just "one" of the exhaust points mods without incuring some or all of the others. This further clarifies and actually simplifies it.

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