2016 Rule Proposal--Decrease ST2 to 7.5:1 Adjusted Wt/HP

[heavychevy]

...I previously thought that 7.5 would be o.k., but that is probably because I have an LS3 engine. I could also support increasing the ST1 ratio to 6.0 or 6.5 thereby making the ST classes 6.0-6.5/8.0/9.5 (non aero). I raced ST1 this year because of the number of cars in class but was underpowered for class and really do not want to spend big bucks to increase HP. Possibly this (6.0-6.5 for ST1) would also get more Porsches to enter class?

 

J.R.

 

I'm TOTALLY in agreement with J.R.'s position. I've got the same LS3 motor dilemma.

 

The HP spread in ST1 can be 150 hp or greater at the 5.5 - 8.0:1 spread that currently exists (doing the math off the top of my head). Its either build for 5.5:1 ($$$), major detune/add weight to get into ST2, or go home.

 

The spread J.R. suggested for ST1/2/3 makes a lot more sense and might allow a large car count in all classes plus the cross over potential from other categories when/if needed.

 

That's my vote for next year.

 

Agreed. 5.5 is tough to achieve, I still havent been below 6.0, and 6.0 would garner more participation in a class that could use a boost. It would also significantly reduce running costs as running a ~500 whp car is a lot more reliable than near 600 whp which is basically what is required, that or a ton of money in weight savings. I would even accept 6.5.

 

6.0 -7.5 -9.0 is my vote.

 

Plus .75-1.0 benefit for R comps (R888,Sport Cup, NT01) to get more people to try TT. It is the feeder for car developing and racing. Give people a reason to run their street cars again.

[Emmanuel B.]

I love the C5 Mafia and their dominance in TTA -> ST3, but here's another vote to "Increase ST3 to 10:1".

While no one would want to go slower, this move also addresses the issue of ST2 and ST3 being too close. It also allows for more PT crossover, and lightweight ST builds to achieve the power numbers to be more competitive in ST3 trim at high HP tracks.

[Balroks]

I love the C5 Mafia and their dominance in TTA -> ST3, but here's another vote to "Increase ST3 to 10:1".

While no one would want to go slower, this move also addresses the issue of ST2 and ST3 being too close. It also allows for more PT crossover, and lightweight ST builds to achieve the power numbers to be more competitive in ST3 trim at high HP tracks.

 

Either way. 6.0/8.0/10.0 or 5.5/7.5/9.5, the first being cheaper and likely more attractive.

[Brian L.]

I love the C5 Mafia and their dominance in TTA -> ST3, but here's another vote to "Increase ST3 to 10:1".

While no one would want to go slower, this move also addresses the issue of ST2 and ST3 being too close. It also allows for more PT crossover, and lightweight ST builds to achieve the power numbers to be more competitive in ST3 trim at high HP tracks.

 

Either way. 6.0/8.0/10.0 or 5.5/7.5/9.5, the first being cheaper and likely more attractive.

 

Would love 6/8/10!!

 

It would allow me to spend less on both my entries. My ST1 370Z wouldn't need extensive throttle body work to make enough HP, and my ST3 350Z could keep its stock engine with some bolts on's and be good to go. That is just my situation though, hopefully that would be accepted across the board.

[kbrew8991]

Because:

-budget

-running a high PTW dyno reclass

-trying to stick to simple drivetrain/suspension/tire points

-budget

-budget

-aaand budget

 

Couldn't disagree more, but don't want to pollute the thread too much

I can understand a certian amount of "Why is GTS separate when it's relatively close".

 

I cannot understand a certain amount of "We should just go to ST1-8 and dump everybody together". Nobody wants to build a full aero open tire full suspension 15-18-20lb/hp range car. Nobody. Y'all play up there and let us mess with our more limited ruleset over here.

[drivinhardz06]

I love the C5 Mafia and their dominance in TTA -> ST3, but here's another vote to "Increase ST3 to 10:1".

 

You realize you could continue to detune a C5/C6 from 9:1 to 10:1, right? 400 ft/lb, 320 hp, same chassis, same aero, same huge rubber, etc

[Emmanuel B.]

I love the C5 Mafia and their dominance in TTA -> ST3, but here's another vote to "Increase ST3 to 10:1".

 

You realize you could continue to detune a C5/C6 from 9:1 to 10:1, right? 400 ft/lb, 320 hp, same chassis, same aero, same huge rubber, etc

Yes, I'm very well aware it's much easier for them to detune to 10:1 than to decrease ST2. Plus, I already know of one ST3 C5 that will kick some butt this year in TT/ST2 after spending a few $$$ to jump to 8.0. I have no qualms with my guys... Simply voting the way that makes it easier for me and 2 other cars I know off to jump in ST3, whilst resolving an issue that came up at Nats and consequently in my region between some ST2 and ST3 cars.

[Grintch]

The numbers don't lie.

Class Wt/hp Delta Delta %

ST1 5.5

ST2 8.00 2.5 45%

ST3 9.00 1.0 13%

PTB 10.25 1.25 14%

PTC 12.0 1.75 17%

PTD 14.25 2.25 19%

PTE 16.5 2.25 16%

PTF 19.5 3.0 18%

 

Even at PTB power to weight, the delta from ST3 to ST2 would still be smaller than from ST2 to ST1. And it would also be bigger than that for PTC to PTB.

 

Sorry for the eye chart, but the forum strips out any spaces or tabs I add to format the data to improve readability.

[kbrew8991]

try the "code" tags around your table

 

That also neglects the delta between "open mods" and "limited mods" between ST and PT.

[haase1375]

guys, in simple term what is the objective of all of this discussion????

 

1- there is no issue with su class

2- there is no issue with st1 class

3- the problem with st2 and st3 class is the rule power/weight ratio margin is too close. yes this is problem where a well build ($$$$) st2 car can so called detune and walk all over the st3 cars.. then the st3 car guy will pick up his toys and goes home and does not come back. my case in point if there were not thunder roadsters in Atlanta the st3 class would had 4 entries only. pls do not talk my word just look at the videos and the lap times from the 2014 eastern nationals.

4- there needs to be a way to keep the st2 cars from so called detuning and destroying the st3 field.

5- the st3 field needs to be for the group that are wanting to enter the ST group and not for a cars that are there to cherry pick the entire field.

6- the gap between the st2 and st3 needs to be increased where st2 can not move to st3 without giving up a lot..

7- the st3 class should be for group with stock engines where they can achieve their power/ratio by simple mods to their cars.

 

I would like to say that st3 class needs to stay as a low cost entry level for racers to bring their cars and run and have FUN with out braking the bank.

 

I feel that if we want to have lots of racers to show up to the 2015 nationals in the st3 class the cherry pickers need to stay in st2. class and compete with the big boys where a win really counts and not a hollow victory..

 

these are my thoughts only and no insult in intended to no one.

best wishes to all

firouz

2008 thunder roadster

[heavychevy]

I disagree, ST1 numbers are pretty dismal on the east coast. I think they could lower the running costs by reducing the ratio a bit, and give the nascars a break on the weight/power chassis and/or aero rules. Make it more appealing and people will show. You already have American Iron and GTS alternatives for some potential ST1 cars. 600 whp is tough to make reliable and expensive to run. The most that should be needed is about 500 whp for an average weight car. That's plenty fast enough.

 

Closing the gap will also make it much easier for ST2 cars to switch up with slicks/weight reduction/tune.

 

I didn't realize PTB was 10.25:1, that's close enough to 10:1.

 

How about

 

ST3 - 9:1

ST2 - 7.75:1

ST1 - 6.25:1

[brkntrxn]

guys, in simple term what is the objective of all of this discussion????

 

1- there is no issue with su class

2- there is no issue with st1 class

3- the problem with st2 and st3 class is the rule power/weight ratio margin is too close. yes this is problem where a well build ($$$$) st2 car can so called detune and walk all over the st3 cars.. then the st3 car guy will pick up his toys and goes home and does not come back. my case in point if there were not thunder roadsters in Atlanta the st3 class would had 4 entries only. pls do not talk my word just look at the videos and the lap times from the 2014 eastern nationals.

4- there needs to be a way to keep the st2 cars from so called detuning and destroying the st3 field.

5- the st3 field needs to be for the group that are wanting to enter the ST group and not for a cars that are there to cherry pick the entire field.

6- the gap between the st2 and st3 needs to be increased where st2 can not move to st3 without giving up a lot..

7- the st3 class should be for group with stock engines where they can achieve their power/ratio by simple mods to their cars.

 

I would like to say that st3 class needs to stay as a low cost entry level for racers to bring their cars and run and have FUN with out braking the bank.

 

I feel that if we want to have lots of racers to show up to the 2015 nationals in the st3 class the cherry pickers need to stay in st2. class and compete with the big boys where a win really counts and not a hollow victory..

 

these are my thoughts only and no insult in intended to no one.

best wishes to all

firouz

2008 thunder roadster

 

 

Firouz,

 

What keeps an SU or ST1 car from running a restrictor to compete in ST2? Or ST3 for that matter? Nothing. Nothing at all. They are perfectly legal to do so. So to prevent an ST2 car from running in ST3 just goes against the nature of ST.

 

As for "hollow victories", BS on that. A Hoosier is a Hoosier and a coffee cup is a coffee cup. Mike Rae kept the pressure on me all season long and Gary Tink BEAT me at Barber. The only reason Mike didn't beat me at CMP is because I didn't race there last year.

 

The class you need to be begging for is PTA if you want something between PTB and ST, not changes to the ST structure.

 

I am not going to go by a '78 Pinto Wagon and expect NASA to change the ST rules for me to be competitive when there is a perfectly good rule set in place for me to build my car to be competitive.

[drivinhardz06]

I would like to say that st3 class needs to stay as a low cost entry level for racers to bring their cars and run and have FUN with out braking the bank.

 

It's ST, it's open other than power/weight, it's not a low cost class. Never has been. "low cost" was points based, PTx classes

[braknl8]

I already know of one ST3 C5 that will kick some butt this year in TT/ST2 after spending a few $$$ to jump to 8.0.

 

Pray-tell...

 

I have no qualms with my guys...

 

^^^ are you referring to the Mafia, here?

 

...just curious.

[Grintch]

I would like to say that st3 class needs to stay as a low cost entry level for racers to bring their cars and run and have FUN with out braking the bank.

 

It's ST, it's open other than power/weight, it's not a low cost class. Never has been. "low cost" was points based, PTx classes

 

And then they killed PTA, and the lost cost option for Corvettes, and more powerful/later Camaros and Mustangs.

[haase1375]

Kevin, I knew I would get a reaction from you for sure . am I sore from Atlanta ???, yes I am even more when I watch the ziggy's silver corvette that won the first place in str3. that engine well I better not say because I would get in trouble. you know I have been racing for 40 long years. and I have won my share of national championships. I know and see what I see. you could not even keep up with him and for sure we could not keep up with either one of you.

 

you keep bringing up barber and cmp, these are short track. sure, I understand that short tracks does not favor corvettes like your or ziggys but in long tracks it is like see you I would not want to be you....and road racing is long track and not sprint track. please do understand I am very happy for you and ziggy for great cars you both have however the str3 should be for less advanced and less hp and none purpose build engines cars. that is all I am saying. you guys should move up to str2 class and beat up on those guys. problem solved

 

we as a group need to for ways to put more cars on the rack and not isolate them.

 

regards

[braknl8]

Kevin, I knew I would get a reaction from you for sure . am I sore from Atlanta ???, yes I am even more when I watch the ziggy's silver corvette that won the first place in str3. that engine well I better not say because I would get in trouble. you know I have been racing for 40 long years. and I have won my share of national championships. I know and see what I see. you could not even keep up with him and for sure we could not keep up with either one of you.

 

you keep bringing up barber and cmp, these are short track. sure, I understand that short tracks does not favor corvettes like your or ziggys but in long tracks it is like see you I would not want to be you....and road racing is long track and not sprint track. please do understand I am very happy for you and ziggy for great cars you both have however the str3 should be for less advanced and less hp and none purpose build engines cars. that is all I am saying. you guys should move up to str2 class and beat up on those guys. problem solved

 

we as a group need to for ways to put more cars on the rack and not isolate them.

 

regards

 

Think about the last half of your last sentence as you spend a few minutes studying the class availability for a corvette over the last few years and post back. YOU HAVE OPTIONS for a "lower cost class". Secondly, that's a pretty bold "well I guess I shouldn't say" accusation about David w/out your supporting it with any data other than the "I can't keep up in the class I WANT, in the car I WANT, so I guess they are cheating". "Oh yeah, and since I can't keep up you all that beat me just need to move out of MY class", mentality. Brilliant, I don't care how long you've been racing or what you've won...that's brilliant. I should say I have respect for your racing history and accomplishments so don't cloud them with ignorance.

[Emmanuel B.]

Back on the subject at hand (which always ends up a C5 mafia vs the rest), I believe the votes just need to be counted. Opinions will vary and are welcome, but ultimately, votes and supporting arguments are what we'll need to resolve the issue. i.e. ST2 and ST3 are too close on track. Vote for ST2 to get bumped to 7.5 or slow down ST3 by some factor.

PTB and ST3 do not compete in the same run group. While there will be some crossover TRs, Exocet, and other well developed production cars simply don't fit in PT. I'm not saying ST3 NEEDS to be slowed down, but that's just my vote to increase the gap to ST2 as well as increase ST3 car counts.

[Vettedoctor]

It doesn't matter what you do with the rules the Corvettes will find a way to compete - instead of complaining about it go back to the garage and work on your car and bring something to the track that can compete. NASA took away TTA/PTA and guys like Kevin and Dave went into there garage and built the heck out of there cars so they could compete in the new class they were FORCED into!

 

Ziggy's car is not some crazy $100k machine built by a some pro race team. He's slowly been building the car in his garage at home, he doesn't have a purpose built motor. It's a stock LS6 that has been de-tuned - maybe a cam but definitely a stock bottom end. Lots of other cars can do the same thing either by timing or air resistors.

 

So instead of just building up your own car (like they did) you'd rather kick them out of the class they were forced into to begin with? Nice! What it comes down to is that you are not willing to do what is necessary to win.

 

Corvettes are like prisons, we need them just not in my backyard!

 

That said if you're going to do anything maybe "slow" ST3 down to allow more cars to fit better into the ST family. Not that they are going to come with those mean old Vette's running around.

[Grintch]

I disagree, ST1 numbers are pretty dismal on the east coast. I think they could lower the running costs by reducing the ratio a bit, and give the nascars a break on the weight/power chassis and/or aero rules. Make it more appealing and people will show. You already have American Iron and GTS alternatives for some potential ST1 cars. 600 whp is tough to make reliable and expensive to run. The most that should be needed is about 500 whp for an average weight car. That's plenty fast enough.

 

Closing the gap will also make it much easier for ST2 cars to switch up with slicks/weight reduction/tune.

 

I didn't realize PTB was 10.25:1, that's close enough to 10:1.

 

How about

 

ST3 - 9:1

ST2 - 7.75:1

ST1 - 6.25:1

 

That not far from what I get using an equalized % delta scale based on the PT values.

Class Wt/hp Delta %

ST1 - 6.3

ST2 - 7.4 - 17%

ST3 - 8.7 - 18%

PTB - 10.25 -18%

PTC - 12.0 - 17%

PTD - 14.0 - 17%

PTE - 16.5 - 18%

PTF - 19.5 - 18%

Edited February 18, 2015 by Guest

[fox4life]

Not that it matters all that much, but just a small correction. PTB is 10.50, not 10.25.

[Grintch]

Not that it matters all that much, but just a small correction. PTB is 10.50, not 10.25.

 

It used to be 10.25, and that provides an equal step. PTD is also 14.25 vs 14. Again modified to equalize the power to weight steps between classes. I suspect a Mafia is involved in both changes from consistent steps.

[Grintch]

double

[Brian L.]

I disagree, ST1 numbers are pretty dismal on the east coast. I think they could lower the running costs by reducing the ratio a bit, and give the nascars a break on the weight/power chassis and/or aero rules. Make it more appealing and people will show. You already have American Iron and GTS alternatives for some potential ST1 cars. 600 whp is tough to make reliable and expensive to run. The most that should be needed is about 500 whp for an average weight car. That's plenty fast enough.

 

Closing the gap will also make it much easier for ST2 cars to switch up with slicks/weight reduction/tune.

 

I didn't realize PTB was 10.25:1, that's close enough to 10:1.

 

How about

 

ST3 - 9:1

ST2 - 7.75:1

ST1 - 6.25:1

 

That not far from what I get using an equalized % delta scale based on the current PT values.

Class Wt/hp Delta %

ST1 - 6.3

ST2 - 7.4 - 17%

ST3 - 8.7 - 18%

PTB - 10.25 -18%

PTC - 12.0 - 17%

PTD - 14.0 - 17%

PTE - 16.5 - 18%

PTF - 19.5 - 18%

 

This spread would be great if there was an ST4 class instead of PTB. But as it is, my 350Z for example cannot get close to the 10.50 limit in PTB and have any points left for, I don't know, race tires .

 

The reason I moved into the ST3 from PTB was the points system just doesn't work well for the 350Z. As it is, the points system is an interesting way to get things close, but never are you going to have really great competition by giving the same points for the same mod to two different cars that might effect those cars very differently. That being said, its a great way to a do a catch all class so I wouldn't propose getting rid of it.

 

What would be great is if the ST family would be more open to lower HP cars, like my 350Z. So in my opinion raising ST3 to 9.5 or 10:1 kills two birds with one stone. Increases car counts by allowing more cars to run in ST3, and gets rid of this dual class/detune argument by making it harder for people to prep a car to ST2, then "detune" and destroy ST3 with huge torque numbers and flat HP curves. People may still do it, but I would wager that it would be less than it is now.

 

6:1, 8:1, and 10:1 still gets my vote. However I don't think a lot of folks are going to like changing ST1, by my math a Porsche GT3 Cup on slicks in exactly on the edge of ST1 rules, and I can't think that is a coincidence. So leave ST1 alone if you want, our numbers out west indicated a need for more ST3 cars, our ST1 field was pretty good.

[brkntrxn]

Kevin, I knew I would get a reaction from you for sure . am I sore from Atlanta ???, yes I am even more when I watch the ziggy's silver corvette that won the first place in str3. that engine well I better not say because I would get in trouble. you know I have been racing for 40 long years. and I have won my share of national championships. I know and see what I see. you could not even keep up with him and for sure we could not keep up with either one of you.

 

Two points:

 

1) Ziggy beat me from the apex of T12 to corner exit and that carried down the front straight. I passed him on the backstraight and pulled up to him multiple times on the backstraight. Either Ziggy's aero gave him a grip advantage or his balls are bigger. Or maybe it is because I had not one but TWO major offs in T12 in the previous year and that corner gives me concern when I come through it. If you really watched our race, you would have seen that and not made assumptions. I would have expected better analysis from someone with 40 years racing experience.

 

2) I was standing next to Ziggy's car when it was dyno'ed. He put down LESS hp and tq than my car. My car at Nationals had a K&N air filter and Kooks headers... the valve covers had never been off the car at that point. Ziggy's car was 100% legal. I am ashamed for you that you would hint to otherwise.

 

you keep bringing up barber and cmp, these are short track. sure, I understand that short tracks does not favor corvettes like your or ziggys but in long tracks it is like see you I would not want to be you....and road racing is long track and not sprint track.

 

The last I checked, we road race on all lengths of track. Just to give myself a double take, last night I reviewed all of my footage and even at Roebling Road the ST3 TRs were dead even with me from the drop of the green all the way to T1. For me, that was a 2nd gear rolling start all the way to just under 140mph. I posted that video last April if you want to see it.

 

I keep bringing up the shorter tracks because two and three years ago we raced Nationals at what I consider a short track: Mid Ohio. Sure, it is several miles long with a long straight, but the VAST majority of that track is very tight and in 3rd gear only for a Corvette.