National Staff Greg G. Posted January 9, 2015 National Staff Share Posted January 9, 2015 Please place your comments here regarding the proposal to change the non-DOT Tire Modification Factor (less of a penalty), or create a new Modification Factor for the Autocross compound DOT tires (negative Mod Factor less than the current one for non-DOT tires) for 2016 and beyond. Please stay on point, and only use this thread for discussion of this one issue. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 They're called autocross tires for a reason, IMO it makes perfect sense to penalize those using them for TT/racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 It does add an interesting bit of extra strategy over a full race distance - when do you want to go fast - early, or late? Certainly in TT, A-compound tires are a clear advantage. No strong preference overall here, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Who gets to determine when a tire is identified as an "autocross tire"? The manufacturer? NASA? My competition? Not all equal same tread wear tires are created equal and never will be. Penalizing a type of tire because it is fast for a few laps is not a good idea. Even the opposite is not a good idea in my opinion either -- penalizing slicks because they are better later. I think this is going down a very slippery slope. IF autocross tires are assessed a penalty, then the hunt will be on for the next softest R-comp. We run sprint races. We run endurance races. We also run time trial. In all kinds of different weather at all kinds of different tracks. Allow us, in Super Touring, to choose the tool that we think is most adequate for the task at hand. Troy, You have stated your opinion on this in the past, hence the reason I will state my opinion in your direction. Ok, so you get "autocross" tires eliminated from race or time trial via effective penalties or outright outlaw. Your price of entry to the podium WILL get more expensive. Know what we will all do when that happens? We pull out a set of one-heat-cycle R6s when the laps count ---- every time they count. So bringing one set of A6s stickers to the track for one flier lap and a couple of fast sessions will no longer be the budget killer. Bringing multiple sets of one-heat-cycle R6s will most definitely get expensive. Don't think it will happen? Think again. I'll do it because I know my competition will do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Who gets to determine when a tire is identified as an "autocross tire"? The manufacturer? NASA? My competition? Not all equal same tread wear tires are created equal and never will be. Penalizing a type of tire because it is fast for a few laps is not a good idea. Even the opposite is not a good idea in my opinion either -- penalizing slicks because they are better later. I think this is going down a very slippery slope. IF autocross tires are assessed a penalty, then the hunt will be on for the next softest R-comp. We run sprint races. We run endurance races. We also run time trial. In all kinds of different weather at all kinds of different tracks. Allow us, in Super Touring, to choose the tool that we think is most adequate for the task at hand. Troy, You have stated your opinion on this in the past, hence the reason I will state my opinion in your direction. Ok, so you get "autocross" tires eliminated from race or time trial via effective penalties or outright outlaw. Your price of entry to the podium WILL get more expensive. Know what we will all do when that happens? We pull out a set of one-heat-cycle R6s when the laps count ---- every time they count. So bringing one set of A6s stickers to the track for one flier lap and a couple of fast sessions will no longer be the budget killer. Bringing multiple sets of one-heat-cycle R6s will most definitely get expensive. Don't think it will happen? Think again. I'll do it because I know my competition will do it. This is an easy problem to fix and one that many other series have fixed. Hell when I was 8 years old racing karts they had already fixed this... Mark tires at tech. You get one set of tires for each race weekend. Done. Tire budget is now max of 1 set of tires per race weekend, problem solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 This is an easy problem to fix and one that many other series have fixed. Hell when I was 8 years old racing karts they had already fixed this... Mark tires at tech. You get one set of tires for each race weekend. Done. Tire budget is now max of 1 set of tires per race weekend, problem solved. Troy, In the world of $40-100k amateur race cars, you want to limit the tire budget per weekend to $1500? Isn't there a paradoxical joke in there somewhere? -Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 This is an easy problem to fix and one that many other series have fixed. Hell when I was 8 years old racing karts they had already fixed this... Mark tires at tech. You get one set of tires for each race weekend. Done. Tire budget is now max of 1 set of tires per race weekend, problem solved. Troy, In the world of $40-100k amateur race cars, you want to limit the tire budget per weekend to $1500? Isn't there a paradoxical joke in there somewhere? -Kevin I don't get it. You flat out stated that you will bring $6000 (4 sets, one for each qualifying session and one for each race) in tires for ST and $12000 (one set for each session) in tires for each weekend in TT if the autocross tires are outlawed... I proposed a fix that would cut your budget down by 75-88%, not counting the cost of wheels, mounting, or storage/transport. Perhaps you're the one who was joking? Or you just want to spend as much money as possible? Why don't you just buy yourself a trophy and save the trip to the track? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balroks Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I personally run a AX compound in order to keep up with the pack, and I'm starting to get sick of changing tires just to fit what's on the raged edge or what follows contingency. I'd agree the PT rules for tires would have a place in ST because the spending war is already out of hand. IF you want to spend 100k on your car prep go right ahead with whatever parts you want, but we ALL know that a fresh set of sticker A's are ALWAYS pulled out at the regional and especially the national level regardless of prep level. The A's have been and continue to be proven on par with SLICK times yet don't get any penalty. It seems in the past we have been penalized for WIDTH on specific DOT's which has little on a tires ability to stick with today's compound technology. AX Compound is already well defined in the PT rules, so carry over one or more categories or combine them into a point modification. Simple. Evolve as the technology has. On the comment of 1 set per weekend, it'd be a simple matter of purposely cording your tires to deem them "unsafe" in order to be allowed a new set. That's been done already. The decision should be up to the driver, and then deal with the rewards or penalties in impound after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z06tracker Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I think it is very difficult to accurately assess modification factors for tire types, compounds, or widths. Perhaps it can be done somewhat accurately comparing stickers to stickers, but even then it matters whether you are running and comparing 1 lap, 2 laps, 3 laps or over a whole sprint race. I very much disagree with this statement, when made as an absolute. "It seems in the past we have been penalized for WIDTH on specific DOT's which has little on a tires ability to stick with today's compound technology." At least on the C5 platform in ST trim, wider has proven faster for many of us in sprint racing. Width does (in this instance) make the tire faster, the question becomes can we get the modification factor "accurate". Given the many permutations given the variety of tire types, compounds, and width, I don't think you can. My input is to do 1 of 2 things: (1) leave the modification factors as they are as we have experience with them and we have a good understanding of tire performance versus the modification factor; or (2) pick a spec tire. I vote for number 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bass Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I think there are slicks that still have advantages over dot tires. However, I think the best solution moving forward is to eliminate tire penalties altogether. Racers will then have the freedom to choose the tire best suited to their car and driving style. And it will open up tire sponsorships and contingencies among tire manufacturers. If everyone can choose the tire they want with no penalty then nobody can bitch about someone else having an advantage. Having a spec tire would be nice, but it's not practical with the nature of the ST classes and variety of cars. In the end with open tire rules, each type of car will likely run the same tire. Ie. vettes on A6's, Porsche on yoko or Michelin slicks, rx7's on hankooks, etc. whatever works best for the platform. Contingencies will still play a big part also for most people. Nasa should not limit the number of tires people use per weekend. Our western group has a gentleman's agreement to only use one set of stickers per weekend but I wouldn't be comfortable with the organization enforcing something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 As previously mentioned, I like the idea of doing away with the slick penalty or greatly reducing it. There is a pretty good supply of reasonably priced PWC Pirelli take offs that are cheap and (usually, depending on prior treatment) competitive with the other options. If that idea isn't too popular I'm fine with keeping the status quo. Limiting usage to 1 set per weekend sounds like a terrible idea. Being able to use >1 set per weekend is pretty critical for preserving lower h/c sets and keeping costs down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Please place your comments here regarding the proposal to change the non-DOT Tire Modification Factor (less of a penalty), or create a new Modification Factor for the Autocross compound DOT tires (negative Mod Factor less than the current one for non-DOT tires) for 2016 and beyond. Is the point to control costs or to even the lap times vs different cars and setups? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdbmathews Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I vote for No Change. The current tire deal in ST works well, go fast early with As or later with slicks, it makes for some very interesting racing strategies. Chaning this rule will result in us all spending money and another winning combo will eventually emerge. It costs time and momey to find the new combo and may even lead us to changing suspension, springs, sway bars shocks etc to make the combo work. Let's spend our money racing not chasing new tire rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.R. Smith Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Greg, My thoughts are that some of the AX tires are compatible with slicks or really close for 3-4 laps for sure. This greatly influences TT results. Especially considering a .7 penalty for slicks. In reference to 30 min races the difference presently (not sure about future or recent AX -D.OT. tires) would still favor the DOT tire. In 45 min events there is a closer equalization of the two tires at present. Based on some current testing by others, especially with the A7, I think in TT's there should be no slick penalty or if one, it should be very slight. In 30-45 min events the penalty for slicks probably needs to be less then present ( .7 ) for sure. Possibly with 2015 being a test year to get a feel of what that number should be. I know this tends to complicate things in giving slicks two factors for events. One of reasons NASA has been successful is that, in my opinion, the rules are fairly simple. So, trying to keep the rules simple but fair becomes a little more complicated. With this forum, for input, and 2015 being a year for evaluation, hopefully an equitable solution will be found. Thanks. J.R. Smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Graber Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'd like to see the slick penalty reduced or eliminated for a couple reasons. 1) There is a plentiful supply of slick take-offs available to help those with smaller budgets or those tired of spending huge money. 2) The DOT tire has continued to evolve and the "gap" between DOT and Non-DOT is very small today. .7 is huge in ST1/2 3) A Non-DOT Slick "may" be faster in the long-run, but out of the gate they are slower. So if you are running a slick you are in "come from behind" mode which in a 35min race is tough. Tire selection can be more of a strategic decision than a pure speed decision. A7 to get out front and hope to be manage, R7 to run consistent, R100 to last longer under extreme conditions and under longer race conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I've tried a bunch of slicks and none (even the "best," other than ALMS Michelins which are essentially unobtainable) come close to justifying the .7 penalty at the TT2 level, let alone TT1. It is pretty tough to guess at an appropriate mod factor, but I would guess in the 0 to .3 range. I haven't been able to do a good comparison over race distance, but my limited experience is that the .7 penalty isn't justified over a race distance either. As JR mentioned, a staggered TT/ST penalty gets complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hokie Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 1) There is a plentiful supply of slick take-offs available to help those with smaller budgets or those tired of spending huge money. Not that ST is ever a budget series, but this would help some of us budget-minded folks be more competitive. Right now I take the 0.7 hit for scrub slicks anyways and suck it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balroks Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Hmm good point, so many have proven the A6's faster then the softest available radial slick, and now we have the a7's. I agree also that it's a win on the first lap or a win on the last lap between the two tire categories. If Toyo had the RS1 in more available sizes then it may make a good spec tire but that's moot currently. The reason the C5 got so much development (other then being cheap) is because it was in a tire/aero restricted class (PTA) which meant that the spending and creativity had to find a gap elsewhere. So "controlling" costs is eventually never obtainable in an "open" class. I'd vote the A's/C90/etc get a .3 and bring the slicks down to a .3. Then you get to determine what you use for qualifying, what for race, what track, what temp outside etc without having to have multiple forms or redoing the math. Controlling costs would then be easier by running the "consistent" tire like R7's in everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'd vote the A's/C90/etc get a .3 and bring the slicks down to a .3. Maybe for TT, but I strongly disagree for ST. An A6/C90 etc., will fall off greatly during a 30 minute heat race whereas a slick will not (as much). I personally am not thrilled about the idea of having to buy a bunch of slicks to compete in ST because that is exactly what everyone will do. And by doing so, we're guaranteed to lose the Hoosier contingency program which has been a great sponsor and supporter of NASA. We've all been doing this long enough (except for troyguitar) to know the performance benefits and disadvantages of pretty much each tire/compound and are able to figure a tire budget accordingly. Changing the rules at this point simply complicates things and will cost most everyone money. I'd still like to know the intended purpose for this proposed change. Once again, is it for costs savings or competition purposes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balroks Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'd vote the A's/C90/etc get a .3 and bring the slicks down to a .3. Maybe for TT, but I strongly disagree for ST. An A6/C90 etc., will fall off greatly during a 30 minute heat race whereas a slick will not (as much). I personally am not thrilled about the idea of having to buy a bunch of slicks to compete in ST because that is exactly what everyone will do. And by doing so, we're guaranteed to lose the Hoosier contingency program which has been a great sponsor and supporter of NASA. We've all been doing this long enough (except for troyguitar) to know the performance benefits and disadvantages of pretty much each tire/compound and are able to figure a tire budget accordingly. Changing the rules at this point simply complicates things and will cost most everyone money. I'd still like to know the intended purpose for this proposed change. Once again, is it for costs savings or competition purposes? I'd disagree that we'd loose Hoosier, buying a DOT and getting one free Vs buying a Slick and getting one free, the cost offset is the same because you're paying up front until you're just winning everything on free tires. Which hasn't happened much due to car counts. I think in the end THAT is the problem we'd all like to resolve regardless of tire. Thinking on the comment that someone can get scrub slicks all day but can't afford 8 A7's every weekend. So whatever makes and KEEPS car counts I'm down. Which answers the last question - it's for both competition due to advancement in the compounds (which last longer then they did last year) and cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakeem Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I think there are slicks that still have advantages over dot tires. However, I think the best solution moving forward is to eliminate tire penalties altogether. Racers will then have the freedom to choose the tire best suited to their car and driving style. And it will open up tire sponsorships and contingencies among tire manufacturers. If everyone can choose the tire they want with no penalty then nobody can bitch about someone else having an advantage. Having a spec tire would be nice, but it's not practical with the nature of the ST classes and variety of cars. In the end with open tire rules, each type of car will likely run the same tire. Ie. vettes on A6's, Porsche on yoko or Michelin slicks, rx7's on hankooks, etc. whatever works best for the platform. Contingencies will still play a big part also for most people. Nasa should not limit the number of tires people use per weekend. Our western group has a gentleman's agreement to only use one set of stickers per weekend but I wouldn't be comfortable with the organization enforcing something like that. 100% this. Also the point about slick take-off's being available cheaply from pro teams is well taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Do you guys honestly believe that everyone is going to show up on second hand used scrub slicks? Of course they're not. What's going to happen is that everyone will run slicks of some sort due to their longevity and the serious guys will show up with sticker slicks every weekend. It will be no different than it is today. So in essence an open tire rule would accomplish nothing because it's not going to be a cost savings for anyone and the fields will still be spread based on the condition of the slicks they run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakeem Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Do you guys honestly believe that everyone is going to show up on second hand used scrub slicks? Of course they're not. What's going to happen is that everyone will run slicks of some sort due to their longevity and the serious guys will show up with sticker slicks every weekend. It will be no different than it is today. So in essence an open tire rule would accomplish nothing because it's not going to be a cost savings for anyone and the fields will still be spread based on the condition of the slicks they run. No one believes "everyone" is going to do anything. But at least the guys who choose to run on scrub slicks can do so without being penalized -0.7 even though they are probably several seconds slower than any fresh DOT tires. It's easy to blow holes in any suggestion if you use extremes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 And the guys running sticker slicks can do so without a .7 hit which is exactly what folks will do thus forcing anyone who is serious about winning to run fresh slicks. It's not an extreme scenario. It's almost guaranteed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Tire modifiers should not be altered based on the idea that scrub slicks are available from professional teams. Scrub DOT R-comps are readily available as well. I have bought them for years from multiple sources in multiple sizes. That rabbit hole makes no sense at all. The parity in tire modifiers should be based upon fact-based lap times. Years ago, slicks were much better than DOT R-comps. Now the differences are much closer. The main ingredient to any discussion on the differences now should stem on WHEN they are faster. With the same rules applying to Sprint Racing, Endurance Racing, and Time Trial, we should eliminate any tire modifiers and let the racer decide when to use them. Thoughts of having different rules for TT and Racing will just get extremely messy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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