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2016 Rule Proposal--non-DOT Tire Mod Factor


Greg G.

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Right, and I thought considering parity between slicks and DOT-Rs was worthwhile as (1) they have some relatively comparable capabilities (i.e., not just b/c there are cheap takeoffs available) and (2) I think the current .7 modifier is incorrect.

Parity between tires *might* lessen the gap *in some situations* in that while you might get beat by virtue of having older tires (and/or less prep, etc), you aren't going to get relatively pounded by also having the (what I think is too large) .7 modifier further slowing you down (assuming you are on PWC takeoffs and the winner is on DOT Rs).

So, yes, the change would result in more of the status quo, but I was thinking that it may help lessen the difference.

In any case, as Kevin points out, there needs to be some quality testing to back up any changes.

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Early or late season in the NE, I will not use slicks (barring a personal tire inventory shortage).

Mid-season in the NE, depends, most likely slicks. Of course, you can almost bank on one yellow (at least in the NE), if not two, which complicates the calculus.

TT, probably never.

 

All that is subject to further screwing around with the car on the track (hardly pro enough to call it "testing"),

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Early or late season in the NE, I will not use slicks.

Mid-season in the NE, depends, most likely slicks.

Oddly coincidental with timing of East Coast Nats.

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For the DOT tires with the current rules it is easy to cross over from TT to ST with no changes to the car(basically everyone runs autocross tires for racing and TT so it just works). If you introduce mod factors on tire compounds like a 0.X penalty for A7's and no penalty for R7's then you might make it more difficult to crossover. I think the ability to crossover TT to ST is very appealing for this series and I would like that to remain.

 

For the NON-DOT tires if the mod factors are changed to make them more competitive and that becomes the default tire to run, it will raise the cost to be competitive simply because NON-DOT tires cost more. I am perfectly happy racing on DOT tires and have no desire to spend more money to keep up with my competition on NON-DOT's.

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For the DOT tires with the current rules it is easy to cross over from TT to ST with no changes to the car(basically everyone runs autocross tires for racing and TT so it just works). If you introduce mod factors on tire compounds like a 0.X penalty for A7's and no penalty for R7's then you might make it more difficult to crossover. I think the ability to crossover TT to ST is very appealing for this series and I would like that to remain.

 

For the NON-DOT tires if the mod factors are changed to make them more competitive and that becomes the default tire to run, it will raise the cost to be competitive simply because NON-DOT tires cost more. I am perfectly happy racing on DOT tires and have no desire to spend more money to keep up with my competition on NON-DOT's.

 

EXACTLY!

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I'd think the rules would be the same for TT as well for that reason obviously. Because if we're doing points for tire "speed" in B-F already then that formula would just be more generalized in 1-3. Since you'd already setup a car to run on Either slicks or DOT's today, it'd be the same formula for A's or R's or Slicks. It's up to you to decide what path to take.

 

I'd also like to see the aero rule go away, but we understand it's there simply to help a **B build transition to a **3 build somewhat easier. Adding this tire rule would only further to help that.

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In TT I would take a small pw/wt penalty to run an autocross tire so I could get my flyer in on the first two laps, where in a 30 minute race I might not want to take the penalty and run the harder tire. At that point your are talking about ballast and or tune changes to run TT and ST in the same weekend.

 

We will end up with purely built TT cars(Think of the one lap wonder TTA vettes on 245's) and purely built ST cars. This difference in focused builds exist already today to some extent but the difference is small enough that crossing over with the same car is still competitive.

 

 

 

The above is theoretical what would happen but actually what will happen is an autocross tire penalty will be introduced and the chosen number will not be perfect, the fast guys will test what setup is optimal and everyone else will follow suit. In the end we will all end up on the same tire and will have accomplished nothing other then the fast guys spending time and money to test.

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The above is theoretical what would happen but actually what will happen is an autocross tire penalty will be introduced and the chosen number will not be perfect, the fast guys will test what setup is optimal and everyone else will follow suit. In the end we will all end up on the same tire and will have accomplished nothing other then the fast guys spending time and money to test.

 

Exactly!

Leave it alone or just further alienate ST from the rest of the crowd! The GTS and AI guys are already scared to crossover and run ST, if we all start running slicks it's just going to scare them away even more.

Plus haven't we already proven that the .7 number works (for ST2 at least?) Smith-Burke won with slicks in 13 and Martin won at Mid-O in 11 with slicks am I missing something?

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As a future ST'er, I vote to lower the Non-DOT penalty, to .5 or so. If nothing else but to make the established vette guys upset, just a little bit. No hard feelings fellas.

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As a future ST'er, I vote to lower the Non-DOT penalty, to .5 or so. If nothing else but to make the established vette guys upset, just a little bit. No hard feelings fellas.

 

 

I see a northern trip in the Mafia's future.

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I see a northern trip in the Mafia's future.

 

I cant speak for all ST guys up here, but id personally be glad to have more competition anytime!

 

But to stay on topic, and expand on my opinion. In my limited experience observing the ST crowd, it seemed the vast majority were on DOT's of some type. That generally means those are the faster tire of the two. Why not give just a little bit back to the Non-DOT's to give some parity and allow those who do want to use them a better chance. Nothing drastic, but a .1-.2 reduction in penalty just to see how it works.

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In my limited experience observing the ST crowd, it seemed the vast majority were on DOT's of some type.

Mainly due to cost and/or contingencies.

 

That generally means those are the faster tire of the two.

Not necessarily (see my response above). DOT's and slicks behave differently on longer runs.

 

Why not give just a little bit back to the Non-DOT's to give some parity and allow those who do want to use them a better chance. Nothing drastic, but a .1-.2 reduction in penalty just to see how it works.

Please read previous posts from CSIPerformance, zigspeed10 and myself.

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Sperkins:

 

I did read all the responses, and all points made are valid and understandable. Im not totally for, or against changing anything necessarily. I just see the DOT's being the status quo and wonder if something could/should be done to even the field. Again, nothing drastic as to change what tire EVERYONE in st will run, but just enough to see more people running the non dot's and being competitive with them.

 

I think you are only stating half the case when you say most people are running DOT's because of cost and contingency. If they weren't the fastest tire, less than the vast majority would be using them, lets be honest. The cost and contingency is part of it though, of course.

 

I agree that slicks behave differently on longer runs, it means its another type of "tool" to be used in the right situations and conditions. Just like the A7/R7 compounds debate, I'm all for leaving those tires alone and allowing people to choose what works better for them in different situations and conditions.

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We will end up with purely built TT cars(Think of the one lap wonder TTA vettes on 245's)...

Hey now... I ran multiple races on those 245 As with good results! Make the car light enough and the 245 works pretty well.

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With respect to running scrubs, Yokohama requires proof of purchase from one of their recognized distributors to qualify for their contingency program. I don't know how Hoosier handles that but Yoko scrubs from a pro team won't qualify.....

 

As for tire comparisons, the ST2 Corvettes out West run really wide R6's (soon R7's) which definitely work to keep the tires cooler and in the zone longer. I believe they're comparable to slicks when fresh and for 30 minute sprint races...

 

I agree with Bill B. that there shouldn't be any tire modification factor....

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With respect to running scrubs, Yokohama requires proof of purchase from one of their recognized distributors to qualify for their contingency program. I don't know how Hoosier handles that but Yoko scrubs from a pro team won't qualify.....

....

 

RE: Hoosier. My understanding is they retain the right to challenge you for your purchase invoice at any time.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well Yokohama has just announced their 2015 contingency program. They're now requiring 7 cars in class to qualify(formally 5), and are awarding only 1 tire to first position(formally 2).

 

I've written their administrator a note letting them now the Hoosier contingency is now a more attractive program. If you care send Bob Root a note at: [email protected]

 

https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/document/document/604/2015_Yokohama_Tire_Regional_Contingency.pdf

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Well Yokohama has just announced their 2015 contingency program. They're now requiring 7 cars in class to qualify(formally 5), and are awarding only 1 tire to first position(formally 2).

 

I've written their administrator a note letting them now the Hoosier contingency is now a more attractive program. If you care send Bob Root a note at: [email protected]

 

https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/document/document/604/2015_Yokohama_Tire_Regional_Contingency.pdf

 

Are there really that many using (let alone winning) them that they'd have to back it down?

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Are there really that many using (let alone winning) them that they'd have to back it down?

 

No there's not. My competitors in ST2 out West (mostly Corvettes) are all on A6/A7's and can't/won't take the .7 weight hit for slicks....

 

I talked with Bob Root this weekend and they're going to re-think their 2015 formula. The decision stems more from their experiences with the POC where the majority of weight/whp cars are running Yokes. We'll see what he comes up with, they've been very generous over the 4 years they've run this program...

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A6's are not as fast as slicks. They are certainly not as fast as Pirelli's, and I'd bet money not even as fast as Hoosiers slicks. How much hp, or how much less weight would be required to make up a second or two. I think about 75 hp for a ST/TT1 car is about right.

 

I don't see why fix what isn't broken. Slicks wouldn't lose a race to A6/7 because they aren't ultimately faster, they would lose because they don't heat up as quick, which would still be the case regardless of penalty changes, you are only handicapping the A6/7 to make them even slower once the disparity does begin to kick in as the A's begin to fall off. The race would look exactly the same except the A's would be more of a sitting duck then they are now.

 

And let's not even get into the temp sensitivity of A's since we are talking about higher hp levels in ST classes. When it's hot out, A6's are really not very good, especially with more hp. I haven't heard reports of any differences on A7's.

 

I'd bet money a controlled group of talented drivers would produce significantly faster times on slicks than A's. I think Troy Messer was 3 seconds faster at TWS on Michelins than A6's.......

 

As for TT, slicks are still not going to get hot quick enough for most events when TTU-3 will catch lap traffic by lap 3 in regions where the two are combined. So you aren't really going to fix anything there either.

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  • 3 months later...

Leave the tire rules how they are IMO. There are pros and cons to each setup, and each individual can decide what is best for them. No need to keep changing things that are not causing an issue for 90%+ of the participants.

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  • 2 months later...

Hoosier A7 tires

 

The genie has been let out of the bottle. The .7 penalty for slicks was written at a time when the D.O.T./autocross tires were nowhere near as good as they are now. So the penalty needs to be dealt with. Not all slicks are equal; they vary in construction, compounds and size. Some work well at the beginning of a session, some work well at the end, and some don’t work well anytime. Adding to the equation that cars weighing from 2,700 to 3,500 lbs. and ranging in horsepower from 300 to 650 gives us too much disparity to make blanket rules such as one set of tires for the weekend, or to place limits on sizing of tires, etc. In addition, the A7 is not made in enough sizes to fit all cars that run ST classes.

 

The proof is in the pudding. When the A7 tire is heat cycled correctly and taken care of, it has an advantage over slicks. Look at the results for the ST and GT classes over the past several years and see which tires performed well. Much of the time these cars finish the race many seconds in front of their competition.

 

Since we are talking about racing, not just going fast, the importance of qualifying well cannot be understated. The advantage in getting to the first corner with little to no traffic in front of you is huge, instead of being caught up in traffic and watching the cars with A7 tires sail off down the track gaining multiple seconds of advantage over cars with other tires.

 

In NASA racing, if you qualify well on A7 tires and are then gridded in front of cars using slicks [having to carry extra weight] you have a good chance of getting to the first corner still in front of the cars carrying the extra weight. Since all tires get slicker and slower as a race progresses, the advantage of carrying less weight down each and every straightaway for the duration is huge. An ST1 car with slicks and 500 rwhp has to carry 350 extra lbs. The .7 penalty ends up being a double penalty affecting both cornering and straightaway speed. Many of the ST2 & 3 cars with A7s are running similar or better times than the ST1 and/or SU [door slammers] cars.

 

In conclusion, since the A7 tire is not available to all competitors and RACES SO WELL, the tire penalty needs to be eliminated.

 

Bob Blizzard

ST1/SU

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