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LJ32

WE ARE ALL WONDERING... everyone that doesn't drive a GTScar

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LJ32

one question, WHY is it that you guys would rather race 1 or 2 other people specific to a german car? the question often comes up that you guys were brought up with the mentality that everyone is a winner. like when you played basketball when you were little and they didnt keep score... hey, at least you got a trophy right?

GTS races With the same rule set, maybe an ST 1, 2, 3, and a 4th class thrown in there is equivalent. we all over in the ST forum are wondering?

 

Why on earth would one not want to show up to a nasa weekend and run in a 10-15 car field st, gts, american iron, just like a race you would watch on tv like imsa or conti tire. hell maybe nasa would get some air time if races were actually worth watching.

 

I dare someone to try and explain. I mean most ST guys are even willing to convert over to your p/w ratios... and dont say because of sponsorships, we all know contingencies would be alive and thrive with high car counts.

 

the ST field is scratching their heads, see for yourself, link below.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=130190

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Cobra4B

FWIW I've noticed chatter among the Mid-A GTS guys about running ST this year. I think we're shaping up to have a nice ST2 field this year.

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Michael G.

I can only assume you made the same post on AI/AIX and HC Forums? If not - then why not?

I think that topic was discussed many times at depth at ST Forum and here as well - it is not difficult to find. In many Regions, especially in the NE, MA and GL/MW - the participation in GTS is much higher then ST, and I never heard that ST is willing to adopt GTS Rules and ratios...

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

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heavychevy
one question, WHY is it that you guys would rather race 1 or 2 other people specific to a german car? the question often comes up that you guys were brought up with the mentality that everyone is a winner. like when you played basketball when you were little and they didnt keep score... hey, at least you got a trophy right?

GTS races With the same rule set, maybe an ST 1, 2, 3, and a 4th class thrown in there is equivalent. we all over in the ST forum are wondering?

 

Why on earth would one not want to show up to a nasa weekend and run in a 10-15 car field st, gts, american iron, just like a race you would watch on tv like imsa or conti tire. hell maybe nasa would get some air time if races were actually worth watching.

 

I dare someone to try and explain. I mean most ST guys are even willing to convert over to your p/w ratios... and dont say because of sponsorships, we all know contingencies would be alive and thrive with high car counts.

 

the ST field is scratching their heads, see for yourself, link below.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=130190

 

Maybe because they are smart enough not to get run over by all the Corvette's like everyone else does?

 

 

ST rules are build for American Muscle, period. Have you heard about the one where ONE Porsche is competitive at ONE national event in 2011 and NASA penalizes ALL rear engines (in 2014). ALL REAR ENGINES AS A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE!! . Nevermind the fact that a Porsche at that point i dont think had ever won an ST event at Nationals (one managed to in 2014 against an ST2 Corvette that passed the rest of the ST1 field) . Took some push back to get it reduced to all rear engines under 2900 lbs, but the point had been made. You can't make a reasonable argument for that with a straight face. The car in question didn't even win that event btw. How about you ask NASA that question? It's not exactly inviting when NASA makes it clear who they intend to win in ST. Especially after you see the list from below.

 

Aside from that, with the inner fender liner rules, BMW's and Porsche's alike would need widebodies to run similar tire sizes (I thought this was grassroots?). And anyone in their right mind knows that torque is a huge advantage. 6 cylinder motors are going to have a hard time keeping up.

 

Maybe you should instead be asking them to create an S2000 class so you have a chance. And while you are at it, check the lap records as well. Let me know when you see BMW's (or anything else for that matter) that are ST3 level running 1:29's at Road Atlanta and OLD ST2 running 1:27....... The closest you will find is someone like Randy Mueller with a ton of money in that car and pro level skills. While you can build the Corvette for 60k. Look at PCA racing and you might find a handful of 200+k Cup cars running the ST3 time and only a few drivers under the ST2 time. NONE of which on DOT A6's.

 

Corvette's (and Vipers actually) are formidable enough. NASA has created the separation.

 

2014 - East Championships

 

STU - Corvette

ST1 - Corvette

ST2 - Corvette

ST3 - Corvette, Corvette

 

2014 - West Championships

 

ST1 - Bill Brinkop in a C5Z that's basically an ST2 car passed the whole ST1 field from the back to finish second. Just ran out of time. Took a 250k Cup Car to beat him.

 

2013 Championships

 

STR1 - Corvette

ST1 - No Corvette's entered

ST2 - Corvette Corvette

ST3 - Corvette

 

 

Can you see a trend? Maybe some people (including myself) are ok butting their head against the wall to try and beat the Corvette's. But everyone isn't willing to be field fillers.

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flink

I don't care what sort of car I race against and I don't care about the 13/13 rule. Problems I have with ST are:

 

a) I can't do better than 11 lb/hp - there's no ST class for me.

 

b) there's too many fsckin rules. Make it power/weight and throw out all that other crap.

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Bnjmn

I have never understood the selling point of GTS, and it doesn't seem like GTS's so-called "straight lb/hp" is the golden goose that you guys understand it to be.

Having read both rule sets, there are actually few additional restrictions/adjusted power modifiers compared to the GTS rules, the primary ones (not to cut your floor, use OEM crossmembers, limitations on altering suspension mounting points, no tubbing of fenderwells) are basically cost control measures. Otherwise, the main difference is that the GTS rules are simply shorter in length (and don't expressly address certain issues).

The more open (i.e., expensive) nature of the GTS rules is slowly coming to a head, as people start to actually take advantage of the (lack of) rules, and other people start feeling priced out of the game.

Would you seriously consider ST4 @ 11:1?

Edited by Guest

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flink
Would you seriously consider ST4 @ 11:1?

 

Sure, if that's where the numbers are. But I don't see how we can get from here to there in Norcal unless people build new cars. The only cars which would cross over to ST4 are GTS3, basically. So it's the same bunch of people doing the same thing with different stickers on

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John Graber

LJ32,

Where have you been racing in ST3? I don't see any record of you racing in the NASA Central or NASA Midwest Regions?

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cstreit911

I suspect because most of us are very passionate about German cars... ...something that unless you're deep into it, you probably wouldn't understand the friendly (mostly) competition/cooperation we have.

 

It's also a brand identity rather than a "run what ya brung" class. GTS has a number of regions with great fields - Not all, but some.

 

Did you ask this of the spec Miata guys? Same question? Why would you just want to race against other Miata's all the time with the same prep rules? Boring right? Seems a lot disagree.

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Alan_Wolfe

I have no allegiance at all.

 

If there was an ST class in the 13 lb/hp range and there were more cars there than GTS2, I'd make the adjustments to run the ST class.

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TowDawg

Chris,

 

I think the OP is talking about class size rather than racing people in the "same" car, so it's really going to be region specific.

The TR and E30 (and sometime Miata and 944) spec classes in the SE have great fields, so there's great competition.

However, there are quite a few classes with only 1-2 cars in them. Personally, I'd be bored as hell racing myself (or 1-2 others).

Whoo-hoo! I won first place! Nevermind I was the only one racing in my class.

 

I have no idea what regions have strong classes of certain cars, so this isn't aimed at any particular class. Just clarifying what I think the OP was getting at.

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911.racer
one question, WHY is it that you guys would rather race 1 or 2 other people specific to a german car? the question often comes up that you guys were brought up with the mentality that everyone is a winner. like when you played basketball when you were little and they didnt keep score... hey, at least you got a trophy right?

GTS races With the same rule set, maybe an ST 1, 2, 3, and a 4th class thrown in there is equivalent. we all over in the ST forum are wondering?

 

Why on earth would one not want to show up to a nasa weekend and run in a 10-15 car field st, gts, american iron, just like a race you would watch on tv like imsa or conti tire. hell maybe nasa would get some air time if races were actually worth watching.

 

I dare someone to try and explain. I mean most ST guys are even willing to convert over to your p/w ratios... and dont say because of sponsorships, we all know contingencies would be alive and thrive with high car counts.

 

the ST field is scratching their heads, see for yourself, link below.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=130190

 

 

Why not just get rid of all classes except for one big class.

 

Your statement confuses me. GTS is strong here in Great Lakes. Let me give you an example

 

July Mid Ohio:

 

ST1 - 3

ST2 - 0

ST3 - 1

 

GTS4 - 8

GTS3 - 7

GTS2 - 3

 

And, we are having a good time.

 

Thanks

 

Ed

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Cobra4B
one question, WHY is it that you guys would rather race 1 or 2 other people specific to a german car? the question often comes up that you guys were brought up with the mentality that everyone is a winner. like when you played basketball when you were little and they didnt keep score... hey, at least you got a trophy right?

GTS races With the same rule set, maybe an ST 1, 2, 3, and a 4th class thrown in there is equivalent. we all over in the ST forum are wondering?

 

Why on earth would one not want to show up to a nasa weekend and run in a 10-15 car field st, gts, american iron, just like a race you would watch on tv like imsa or conti tire. hell maybe nasa would get some air time if races were actually worth watching.

 

I dare someone to try and explain. I mean most ST guys are even willing to convert over to your p/w ratios... and dont say because of sponsorships, we all know contingencies would be alive and thrive with high car counts.

 

the ST field is scratching their heads, see for yourself, link below.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=130190

 

Maybe because they are smart enough not to get run over by all the Corvette's like everyone else does?

 

 

ST rules are build for American Muscle, period. Have you heard about the one where ONE Porsche is competitive at ONE national event in 2011 and NASA penalizes ALL rear engines (in 2014). ALL REAR ENGINES AS A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE!! . Nevermind the fact that a Porsche at that point i dont think had ever won an ST event at Nationals (one managed to in 2014 against an ST2 Corvette that passed the rest of the ST1 field) . Took some push back to get it reduced to all rear engines under 2900 lbs, but the point had been made. You can't make a reasonable argument for that with a straight face. The car in question didn't even win that event btw. How about you ask NASA that question? It's not exactly inviting when NASA makes it clear who they intend to win in ST. Especially after you see the list from below.

 

Aside from that, with the inner fender liner rules, BMW's and Porsche's alike would need widebodies to run similar tire sizes (I thought this was grassroots?). And anyone in their right mind knows that torque is a huge advantage. 6 cylinder motors are going to have a hard time keeping up.

 

Maybe you should instead be asking them to create an S2000 class so you have a chance. And while you are at it, check the lap records as well. Let me know when you see BMW's (or anything else for that matter) that are ST3 level running 1:29's at Road Atlanta and OLD ST2 running 1:27....... The closest you will find is someone like Randy Mueller with a ton of money in that car and pro level skills. While you can build the Corvette for 60k. Look at PCA racing and you might find a handful of 200+k Cup cars running the ST3 time and only a few drivers under the ST2 time. NONE of which on DOT A6's.

 

Corvette's (and Vipers actually) are formidable enough. NASA has created the separation.

 

2014 - East Championships

 

STU - Corvette

ST1 - Corvette

ST2 - Corvette

ST3 - Corvette, Corvette

 

2014 - West Championships

 

ST1 - Bill Brinkop in a C5Z that's basically an ST2 car passed the whole ST1 field from the back to finish second. Just ran out of time. Took a 250k Cup Car to beat him.

 

2013 Championships

 

STR1 - Corvette

ST1 - No Corvette's entered

ST2 - Corvette Corvette

ST3 - Corvette

 

 

Can you see a trend? Maybe some people (including myself) are ok butting their head against the wall to try and beat the Corvette's. But everyone isn't willing to be field fillers.

So you're saying it's the car

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heavychevy
one question, WHY is it that you guys would rather race 1 or 2 other people specific to a german car? the question often comes up that you guys were brought up with the mentality that everyone is a winner. like when you played basketball when you were little and they didnt keep score... hey, at least you got a trophy right?

GTS races With the same rule set, maybe an ST 1, 2, 3, and a 4th class thrown in there is equivalent. we all over in the ST forum are wondering?

 

Why on earth would one not want to show up to a nasa weekend and run in a 10-15 car field st, gts, american iron, just like a race you would watch on tv like imsa or conti tire. hell maybe nasa would get some air time if races were actually worth watching.

 

I dare someone to try and explain. I mean most ST guys are even willing to convert over to your p/w ratios... and dont say because of sponsorships, we all know contingencies would be alive and thrive with high car counts.

 

the ST field is scratching their heads, see for yourself, link below.

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=130190

 

Maybe because they are smart enough not to get run over by all the Corvette's like everyone else does?

 

 

ST rules are build for American Muscle, period. Have you heard about the one where ONE Porsche is competitive at ONE national event in 2011 and NASA penalizes ALL rear engines (in 2014). ALL REAR ENGINES AS A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE!! . Nevermind the fact that a Porsche at that point i dont think had ever won an ST event at Nationals (one managed to in 2014 against an ST2 Corvette that passed the rest of the ST1 field) . Took some push back to get it reduced to all rear engines under 2900 lbs, but the point had been made. You can't make a reasonable argument for that with a straight face. The car in question didn't even win that event btw. How about you ask NASA that question? It's not exactly inviting when NASA makes it clear who they intend to win in ST. Especially after you see the list from below.

 

Aside from that, with the inner fender liner rules, BMW's and Porsche's alike would need widebodies to run similar tire sizes (I thought this was grassroots?). And anyone in their right mind knows that torque is a huge advantage. 6 cylinder motors are going to have a hard time keeping up.

 

Maybe you should instead be asking them to create an S2000 class so you have a chance. And while you are at it, check the lap records as well. Let me know when you see BMW's (or anything else for that matter) that are ST3 level running 1:29's at Road Atlanta and OLD ST2 running 1:27....... The closest you will find is someone like Randy Mueller with a ton of money in that car and pro level skills. While you can build the Corvette for 60k. Look at PCA racing and you might find a handful of 200+k Cup cars running the ST3 time and only a few drivers under the ST2 time. NONE of which on DOT A6's.

 

Corvette's (and Vipers actually) are formidable enough. NASA has created the separation.

 

2014 - East Championships

 

STU - Corvette

ST1 - Corvette

ST2 - Corvette

ST3 - Corvette, Corvette

 

2014 - West Championships

 

ST1 - Bill Brinkop in a C5Z that's basically an ST2 car passed the whole ST1 field from the back to finish second. Just ran out of time. Took a 250k Cup Car to beat him.

 

2013 Championships

 

STR1 - Corvette

ST1 - No Corvette's entered

ST2 - Corvette Corvette

ST3 - Corvette

 

 

Can you see a trend? Maybe some people (including myself) are ok butting their head against the wall to try and beat the Corvette's. But everyone isn't willing to be field fillers.

So you're saying it's the car

 

 

 

It's never just the car (unless you are Scott Tucker)......

 

The point is that the rules aren't really inviting or are prohibitive (be it cost or other) to put any other cars on the same level. It really applies to american muscle, but we all know the Corvette is the best overall platform in that regard (cost, modability, availability of parts, tuners etc.).

 

And like I said, Corvette's (and Vipers for that matter) have been winning Lemans and other pro racing since the 90's. They don't need any help. If NASA wanted more makes in ST, they would make it more level as the vast majority of cars are playing catch up to begin with.

 

In that sense, NASA should have less rules, not more. tire compound,transmission, select production race cars and active aero due to compliancy testing (and all rules made for safety). Throw out the tubbing rule, AWD rule, throw out the 911 rule and let people be creative.

 

Growth is experienced by enabling MORE people to be competitive, not less.

 

But my original point was that the OP clearly has no idea what it will take to make a E30, E36, E46, E92 competive with the Corvettes. A LOT! Then there is that 911 rule again. So why then would GTS participants want to run in ST unless there is just a weak field in their area?

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LJ32

@John Graber

Ive been in ST3 since the class started in the central region. Heartland park, hastings, mid America etc...

My videos of ST3 have the most views in the gopro section...

 

anyways,

 

@alan wolfe I agree, but what in the world cars have an 18 ratio? Wouldn’t st4-1 at 14, 11, 8, 5 be fine? or a 5th may be necessary to bring them closer together to help cost but I think the car count would be an epic addition. Ive had 2 epic races with GTS cars for us not to be classed together is a mistake.

 

@towdawg, nail on the head my friend.

 

 

I just brought this back up to get a rise out of ppl to take notice of the lagging class numbers. only in mass populated areas (1 or 2 regions) do you see any kind of car counts. I completely agree, it would be dumb to kill a class that has a few good numbers. but so far all ive heard as far as reasons not to merge the 2 is because you cant keep up with vettes and because of the "friendmanship"/owner relations. st and gts are one and the same. To argue that point Im pretty sure the e46 st3 car that raced at the west cost championship would have smashed the vettes on the east coast. He was clocking times similar to the st2 lotus which ran at both national events and put a spanking on the st3 vettes. Greg and his lotus had an unfortunate crash but he was walking the st2 and st3 vettes. As for managing detuned V8's, measure the tq ratio as well. instead of just hp/weight.

 

I dont know where your seeing vettes across the boards... 2013 TT3 champ was chris mayfield in an e36 against st3/tt3 vettes... kid dominates everywhere he goes because hes a damn good driver...

 

My point is cars with the same rules shouldn’t be classed by manufacture when car counts in a lot of regions are suffering.

 

FYI for who asked I only posted in gts and not honda and american iron because i dont have the time to have this conversation 3 different times... Mods should communicate if this gets any attention.

Edited by Guest

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heavychevy

Look outside the bubble dude. You found ONE guy. And for every record he has you will see 10 more Corvette's in ST/TT U,1,2,3. you can look at the lap records, because even though the racing classes are split, the TT classes are not. And GTS 4 lines up admirably to ST3 when it comes to rules. Now, count BMW's. Then, count Corvette's.

 

I showed you where I saw Vette's across the boards. Read up a couple of posts. The explanation is clear. Miller in the middle of nowhere is not a great gauge. Look at the times at Sonoma, VIR, Mid-Ohio, Road Atlanta where big regions have lots of participation. Even nationals at Miller weren't well attended. But when your TT3 guy has the lap record for all classes at several tracks, it's not exactly convincing. No knock on Mayfield because he won against a legit top tier Corvette driver in Ken Smith.

 

Randy Mueller is a shop owner and amongst the cream of the crop BMW drivers, and tunes a lot of those BMW's you speak of, and over here, the TT3 lap record at Road Atlanta is 2 seconds faster than Randy qualified in his GTS 4 BMW at Nationals. And the ST3 Corvette's were running similar pace to Randy in his GTS 4 car. And the lap record holder didn't even run. VIR isn't going to be any friendlier to the BMW's either. When looking at maximum potential, you have to keep these things in mind. Scott Perkins had barely even had time to tune the aero he added when the class rules changed from PTA.

 

Your beef, though, should be with NASA. You think a troll post on NASA forums is going to cause all the GTS guys to leave the still existing GTS class to run ST? Because why? The fastest BMW barely squeak into ST3 which for all intents and purposes is probably the most popular ST class nationwide in NASA. Not sure what you think this will accomplish. If there is a GTS class, GTS guys will run in it. End of story.

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LJ32
Look outside the bubble dude. You found ONE guy. And for every record he has you will see 10 more Corvette's in ST/TT U,1,2,3. you can look at the lap records, because even though the racing classes are split, the TT classes are not. And GTS 4 lines up admirably to ST3 when it comes to rules. Now, count BMW's. Then, count Corvette's.

 

I showed you where I saw Vette's across the boards. Read up a couple of posts. The explanation is clear. Miller in the middle of nowhere is not a great gauge. Look at the times at Sonoma, VIR, Mid-Ohio, Road Atlanta where big regions have lots of participation. Even nationals at Miller weren't well attended. But when your TT3 guy has the lap record for all classes at several tracks, it's not exactly convincing. No knock on Mayfield because he won against a legit top tier Corvette driver in Ken Smith.

 

Randy Mueller is a shop owner and amongst the cream of the crop BMW drivers, and tunes a lot of those BMW's you speak of, and over here, the TT3 lap record at Road Atlanta is 2 seconds faster than Randy qualified in his GTS 4 BMW at Nationals. And the ST3 Corvette's were running similar pace to Randy in his GTS 4 car. And the lap record holder didn't even run. VIR isn't going to be any friendlier to the BMW's either. When looking at maximum potential, you have to keep these things in mind. Scott Perkins had barely even had time to tune the aero he added when the class rules changed from PTA.

 

Your beef, though, should be with NASA. You think a troll post on NASA forums is going to cause all the GTS guys to leave the still existing GTS class to run ST? Because why? The fastest BMW barely squeak into ST3 which for all intents and purposes is probably the most popular ST class nationwide in NASA. Not sure what you think this will accomplish. If there is a GTS class, GTS guys will run in it. End of story.

 

dam*it heavychevy you are not helping! lol how about you come with a suggestion instead of telling ppl how they cant and wont catch the vette mafia! I like the open rules idea you mentioned but it still has no benefit or fix to the problem with ST that is causing ppl to leave it.

 

Im trolling!?!?

because I'm calling guys out on there BS excuses not to run against a certain car? you can detune any big displacement engine....

with the right rule set tq/hp/weight ratio and levels 1-5 of classing I think fair racing would come about.

 

you say "ONE" but at the end of the day it was german cars that came out on top at west coast championships in ST1-3. I count 4 porsches and 2 bmw's. there were 3 vettes,, none of which came out on top... your point lacks conviction. look, Im trying to think outside "the bubble" lol. Thats why I didnt buy a C5. that and the joke about the elephant, the mouse, and the corvette (google it). A built s2000, with as much custom adjustable work as I could muster up. not going to a honda challenge class and grabbing a trophy at every event racing one other civic. am I the only one gonna show up to VIR and try and take it to Zig and Kevin in st3? maybe, but it will be fun racing the best of the best (what nationals should be) and it shouldn't be hard to get there being that all I have to do is drive around by myself regionally. But hey its almost guaranteed ill get to have some epic "outta class" racing with a few bmw's or mustangs along the way, who are running close to the same times I am but for some reason in a class of there own. cuz thats what its all about right!? like I said before, Im just stating what everyone else is thinking. Weather I get burned at the stake, makes no difference.

 

Any MODs have an opinion or want to tell me why Im wrong? you guys are at the head of the board for a reason. Im assuming it is the way it is its because you know it wont work and have tried merging them? how many would show up if there was ST1-5 and race all kinds of builds instead of just e36's?

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911.racer
Look outside the bubble dude. You found ONE guy. And for every record he has you will see 10 more Corvette's in ST/TT U,1,2,3. you can look at the lap records, because even though the racing classes are split, the TT classes are not. And GTS 4 lines up admirably to ST3 when it comes to rules. Now, count BMW's. Then, count Corvette's.

 

I showed you where I saw Vette's across the boards. Read up a couple of posts. The explanation is clear. Miller in the middle of nowhere is not a great gauge. Look at the times at Sonoma, VIR, Mid-Ohio, Road Atlanta where big regions have lots of participation. Even nationals at Miller weren't well attended. But when your TT3 guy has the lap record for all classes at several tracks, it's not exactly convincing. No knock on Mayfield because he won against a legit top tier Corvette driver in Ken Smith.

 

Randy Mueller is a shop owner and amongst the cream of the crop BMW drivers, and tunes a lot of those BMW's you speak of, and over here, the TT3 lap record at Road Atlanta is 2 seconds faster than Randy qualified in his GTS 4 BMW at Nationals. And the ST3 Corvette's were running similar pace to Randy in his GTS 4 car. And the lap record holder didn't even run. VIR isn't going to be any friendlier to the BMW's either. When looking at maximum potential, you have to keep these things in mind. Scott Perkins had barely even had time to tune the aero he added when the class rules changed from PTA.

 

Your beef, though, should be with NASA. You think a troll post on NASA forums is going to cause all the GTS guys to leave the still existing GTS class to run ST? Because why? The fastest BMW barely squeak into ST3 which for all intents and purposes is probably the most popular ST class nationwide in NASA. Not sure what you think this will accomplish. If there is a GTS class, GTS guys will run in it. End of story.

 

 

OK, not sure about all of that.

 

If, and I do not know, so I say if, GTS4 lines up with ST3.

 

Graber has the track record at Mid Ohio on the pro course at 1:31.2 in GTS4 and the ST3 track record is 1:33.0.

On the club course, I have the track record with a 1:33.5 and, well, there is no ST3 track record. I guess no one ever ran in ST3 on the club course.

At Pitt Race, I have the track record at 1:01.2. The ST3 track record is 1:09.1

At Road America Chris Striet has it at 2:23.4 and in ST3 it is 2:31.1

Gingerman long course Pedri in GTS4 1:38.4 and ST3 1:39.0

 

I could look at more, but these are kind of the ones we go to a lot. And, it looks like GTS4 is considerable faster than ST3

 

Oh, but you did talk about VIR. I looked that one up too. GTS4 2:01.5 ST3 2:03.5

 

No group (like the Tudor Cup) that runs multi car classes has unlimited rules. There are all kinds of rules rewarding or penalizing one marque or the other. To combine the groups and do that would be an administration nightmare.

 

If you want to run in a group with a bunch of cars and be competitive, sell your car and buy a GTS car. I happen to have a few for sale.

 

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=130217

 

The great thing about a Porsche cup car is that you do not have to run around, modifying you car and doing all of that. You can just get in and drive and set some records like Steit, Graber, Wisen, and myself. And, yes, I did go to Atlanta. Finished 3rd behind Mueller and Graber in GTS4.

 

I have always said, don't pick the car you race because you love the car, pick it because of who you race with. A good driver can race the poop out of anything.

 

Thanks

 

Ed

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Bnjmn

One more data point, a c5 corvette in TTA (the highly restrictive predecessor to TT/ST3) did a 1:31.5 at the 2012 Nats. And then drove home 500 miles. That might suggest ST3 could line up with GTS4.

The benefit of combining classes is that more cars per class is generally more enjoyable for everyone. The winner's victory is more meaningful and 5th place goes home happy with memories of the helluva 3 way fight he was in, and comes back for more good times, and maybe in the off season buys one of the cars you have for sale in hopes of finishing higher.

If the classes were unified, I think you would find plenty of competitive foreign (i.e., non-German) cars deciding to participate.

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jon819

I'm pretty sure Mayfield was the 2014 TT3 Champion at the western nationals this year as well and was only a little over a second behind the TT2 champion Bill Brinkop who is a fantastic Corvette driver from what I have seen. It was also his first time to the track I believe as well so probably some time left on the table. Also I bet once someone developes a good 3-link rear suspension and runs some hoosier A's for the Thunder roadsters they will be even more competitive with the vettes in ST3. Just some food for thought.

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John Graber

Maybe the BMW's from GTS4 can get into ST3, but the Porsche's will have to run GTS4. The Porsche's need to run a non-DOT due to the rear weight and power, or risk catastrophic failure at some point. We also have the "rear engine" penalty. My GTS4 car slots into ST2 with only a 10lb weight adjustment.

 

Guys, if NASA wanted to merge or better align GTS & ST classes it's easy to do. If they do it then lobbying to enlarge one race group becomes a real issue, but today NASA does not want to merge these classes. GTS is a group of model specific cars racing. ST & PT is a run what you brung, spend, spend, spend group. I'm not convinced the corvette is better based on the rules, but it is much better out of the box and easier to compete with when less developed. For the record if car count is better in ST I will run in ST.

 

At the events I attend, GL, MW & MA Regions, GTS car count is much larger than ST. ST used to be much stronger but it seems to have softened over the last year or two. GTS has remained strong. At the Eastern Championship race there were 35 GTS cars and only 22 ST cars present. Now in other parts of the Country you have the opposite going on. West Coast GTS has never been as strong, due to PCA and POC groups, but has been growing. ST however has a good following there and at the last Miller Championships, where I was the ST Director, the ST and GTS counts were very similar.

 

Maybe they should just drop all classes except PT & ST and have huge race groups.....

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Zach H.

Other than what John Graber and Ed Baus have said, this thread has way too much speculation and next to zero facts.

 

OP, if all you wanted was a rise, you got one for a split second. After that your poor writing and thought formulation took the legs away from whatever point/argument you were attempting to make. if you are worried about car count in your region(which is one of the newest regions and smallest) don't expect the whole nasa organization to conform to what you think a few series should do. why not make a few crossover MW/GL events and see where your ST program stacks up?

 

Other than that, I applaud your enthusiasm towards building your class. Good luck!

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LJ32

Ahh zack, Just the kind of helpful reply I was waiting for! You should type 500 words on your phone, then we’ll be the judge of your grammar… Why don't you tell me all about how much fun it was to race 2 or 3 other people in your class all year! I cant wait to hear about your 1st place finish out of 3 cars and how you battled it out by yourself the entire race!!! SMH... I didn’t start this Thread to “just get a rise out of people.” It is speculation. Speculation to get some constructive ideas from ppl and hear suggestions. To see what guys are open to.

 

If GTS is a hit in a few regions, but guys would make the crossover to have a race. Would it be accommodating for people if classes aligned? Say ST was restructured (their already talking about doing so to st2 or 3 in 2016) to where you could transfer between classes. Thus leaving the ability to run GTS when the car counts are high.

 

Other than that, I’m out of ideas… I think if the classes were aligned, it wouldn’t be hard for a group of guys to get together at a regional race and say, hey, we all fall into tier 4 in ST. Let’s run together… This way your not consolidating classes that some people like. You're in a sense, giving more opportunity. 4 AI cars, 2 gts3 cars, and 2 st4 cars show up for the weekend and boom, you have 8 similar timed cars racing in a regional race if they choose to and have a fair chance. that may be something more for the ST forum to consider but you guys would definitely play a part in it.

 

wishful think? Maybe, but at least it will be in the back of a few minds moving forward.

Edited by Guest

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kbrew8991
GTS is a group of model specific cars racing playing the spend spend spend game. ST & PT is a run what you brung, spend, spend, spend group that allows anybody.

fixed...

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ILIKETODRIVE
GTS is a group of model specific cars racing playing the spend spend spend game.

ST is a run what you brung, spend, spend, spend group that allows anybody.

PT is a cost-controlled version of ST, essentially.

fixed...

moar fixedd

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