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WE ARE ALL WONDERING... everyone that doesn't drive a GTScar

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heavychevy

OK, not sure about all of that.

 

If, and I do not know, so I say if, GTS4 lines up with ST3.

 

Graber has the track record at Mid Ohio on the pro course at 1:31.2 in GTS4 and the ST3 track record is 1:33.0.

On the club course, I have the track record with a 1:33.5 and, well, there is no ST3 track record. I guess no one ever ran in ST3 on the club course.

At Pitt Race, I have the track record at 1:01.2. The ST3 track record is 1:09.1

At Road America Chris Striet has it at 2:23.4 and in ST3 it is 2:31.1

Gingerman long course Pedri in GTS4 1:38.4 and ST3 1:39.0

 

I could look at more, but these are kind of the ones we go to a lot. And, it looks like GTS4 is considerable faster than ST3

 

Oh, but you did talk about VIR. I looked that one up too. GTS4 2:01.5 ST3 2:03.5

 

No group (like the Tudor Cup) that runs multi car classes has unlimited rules. There are all kinds of rules rewarding or penalizing one marque or the other. To combine the groups and do that would be an administration nightmare.

 

If you want to run in a group with a bunch of cars and be competitive, sell your car and buy a GTS car. I happen to have a few for sale.

 

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=130217

 

The great thing about a Porsche cup car is that you do not have to run around, modifying you car and doing all of that. You can just get in and drive and set some records like Steit, Graber, Wisen, and myself. And, yes, I did go to Atlanta. Finished 3rd behind Mueller and Graber in GTS4.

 

I have always said, don't pick the car you race because you love the car, pick it because of who you race with. A good driver can race the poop out of anything.

 

Thanks

 

Ed

 

Here are some facts.....

 

 

ST3 is only 2 (3?) years old. And a quick glance at the GTS rule book and there are hardly any restrictions!! Plus, you aren't going to have the same data sampling of top guys at every track. Most guys haven't even finished really developing the cars yet unless they are a crossover from GTS4. Give them some time.... Many of the Vette guys were/are still developing former PTA/TTA cars which was a sizeable investment to go to ST3. If the ST3 lap record is 3,4,5-10 seconds off the pace, then clearly, just no decent sample data. This is still NASA, it's not like every class at every track in every region is maxed out especially in a 2 year old class.

 

In GTS there are not all of the rules:

 

- 8.5 vs 9:1

- no tubbing rule,

- no 911 rule,

- mounting points can be moved,

- side windows allowed,

- no cage pickup rule,

- no active aero rule,

- no cockpit controllable suspension rule,

- no non-production vehicle rule,

- non oem subframes/cross members

- rocker panels

- transmission tunnels

etc. etc. etc.

 

That's my point. Undo the rulebook and let people have at it. Surely you don't think with time and development and the GTS rulebook, the ST3 Vettes wouldn't be capable of smashing those records...... even at 9:1. would probably be faster than the current ST2 Vettes under the current rules.

 

I still haven't heard of a privateer BMW running a 1:29 at Road Atlanta. EDIT: I found some, but I'm fairly certain Rand Mueller's Bmod car will not fit into ST3 and I'm positive Eric Zimmerman's Cmod car won't fit either as I know him and what's on that car. Beyond that, the costs to replicate those cars is VERY high. AND they were both on SLICKS at the time..... Actually a closer comparison would the the old rules TTS lap record at Road Atlanta 1:27.2 and the ST2 record at 1:28.0 with a 8.7:1 ratio..... and those ST2 cars (8:1) are running 1:28's at Mid-Ohio, with the bigger rule book. Two ST2 Vette's under the old rules (8.7:1) in the 1:58-1:59 at VIR on the OLD PAVEMENT which would be in the 1:56-1:57 now. Compare that to the GTS4 record set in 2014 on the new pavement. Not on same planet. Point is that both ST/TT3 Corvette's on the east coast are running faster than pro drivers in the most highly developed BMW's.

 

I stand by what I said.......... Enjoy beating those with a much larger rulebook, and a limited budget, like most people have. I don't think for one second that's going to shake out to be an even battle even with the same rule book. The BMW's will even need some concessions IMO. NASA runs the risk of running a bunch of people away when it's perfectly safer to have an additional (everyone wins a trophy award).

Edited by Guest

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gjkasten
.....Would it be accommodating for people if classes aligned? Say ST was restructured (their already talking about doing so to st2 or 3 in 2016) to where you could transfer between classes. Thus leaving the ability to run GTS when the car counts are high.

 

I am new to this so don't kill me if I am way off, but that sounds logical to me. I am building an E36M3 for GTS2 and currently run TTC until I get the cage built. The idea of being able to cross back and forth from PTC or B to GTS2 would be great. Unfortunately the WT/HP ratios are pretty far off and it becomes hard to make a car work in both classes.

 

FWIW, in the Rocky Mountain region there are almost no PT class cars but the GTS2 group is growing.

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Cobra4B

ST3 is 2:03 at VIR because nobody races ST3. TT3 is 1:59.8 by Ziegler. TT2 is in the 1:58s by Phil's BRZ Subaru. I've run a best of 1:59.4 in TT2 trim with my car still in development. Phil is pushing for 1:57s in TT2 this year.

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hakeem

From an ST perspective, it would be fantastic to merge the classes together. To me it is not really about "GTS vs ST" and more about whether a consolidated group of classes could arrive at a mutually agreeable ruleset that generates more participation.

 

I'm not aware of any West Coast ST cars that are built "on the limit" with sequential boxes, active aero, etc - I don't think any of us care about even having these options in the rules, and frankly any attempt to limit crazy costs would be welcomed. As mentioned above, Bill B came close to winning ST1 in an ST2 car running an OEM transmission, off the shelf aero parts, and good shocks.

 

It is a little sad to see ST, GTS, AI all running separate classes with comparable lap times as witnessed at Willow Springs this weekend (ie. http://timingscoring.drivenasa.com/NASA_California-Southern_Region/Saturday%20-%20Provisional%20Results/Group%20B%20Race.pdf and http://timingscoring.drivenasa.com/NASA_California-Southern_Region/Sunday%20-%20Provisional%20Results/Group%20B%20Race.pdf) - could easily have been just 2-3 big classes on track that would have worked well.

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ILIKETODRIVE
From an ST perspective, it would be fantastic to merge the classes together. To me it is not really about "GTS vs ST" and more about whether a consolidated group of classes could arrive at a mutually agreeable ruleset that generates more participation.

This. It's not about "Join our ship because we surely won't join yours!" but more about "letz all race 2gther!"

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fox4life
From an ST perspective, it would be fantastic to merge the classes together. To me it is not really about "GTS vs ST" and more about whether a consolidated group of classes could arrive at a mutually agreeable ruleset that generates more participation.

This. It's not about "Join our ship because we surely won't join yours!" but more about "letz all race 2gther!"

 

Here here! Couldn't agree more!

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gkmccready

And extend ST down to PT power:weight levels and roll HC in, too?

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ILIKETODRIVE
And extend ST down to PT power:weight levels and roll HC in, too?

Sure but not all the way down. HC4, for instance, is uber limited on modifications. PT/TT C/D/E would still need to stay in place IMO. That gives Spec E30 and GTS1 guys a place, too!

 

This is so easy. I should run NASA!

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gkmccready
And extend ST down to PT power:weight levels and roll HC in, too?

Sure but not all the way down. HC4, for instance, is uber limited on modifications. PT/TT C/D/E would still need to stay in place IMO. That gives Spec E30 and GTS1 guys a place, too!

 

Why should we keep the complicated modification points system? That is where most PT/TT competitors struggle. If adjusted power to weight works for "everybody" why not those cars, too?

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hakeem
Why should we keep the complicated modification points system? That is where most PT/TT competitors struggle. If adjusted power to weight works for "everybody" why not those cars, too?

 

This! We can even call these new series of classes GTx to make everyone happy (other than the SCCA, probably).

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ILIKETODRIVE
Why should we keep the complicated modification points system? That is where most PT/TT competitors struggle. If adjusted power to weight works for "everybody" why not those cars, too?

Slow cars don't need $6,000 shocks and $10,000 in aero.

 

It's really not that tough with a power-to-weight reclass. People just don't have patience and/or didn't plan out their build and hate that they're not competitive.

Here's your minimum weight, here's your max whp. Add up chassis/suspension/drivetrain/aero mods and then do your tires. Done.

To be competitive is just as easy. Pick a car that goes well and handles well. Figure out what class you want to tackle. Assume total points that you're going to be able to allocate to modifications and start picking what you can/can't do.

My Integra, for example: Shocks, springs, sways, rear chassis brace (for huge rear sway), rear camber arms (for tire wear/aggressive alignment), gear swap, add LSD, tires. Started in E. Points out at the top of E. Stock brakes work great. Doesn't need aero. Doesn't need a crazy cage.

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gkmccready
Why should we keep the complicated modification points system? That is where most PT/TT competitors struggle. If adjusted power to weight works for "everybody" why not those cars, too?

Slow cars don't need $6,000 shocks and $10,000 in aero.

 

If they don't need them then there should be no advantage to them, and it shouldn't matter unless you want to spend that money. My PTE car was competitive at Nationals and West Coast Champs with a $900 junkyard motor while other folks were running $5000+ built motors...

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mhoward1
Why should we keep the complicated modification points system? That is where most PT/TT competitors struggle. If adjusted power to weight works for "everybody" why not those cars, too?

Slow cars don't need $6,000 shocks and $10,000 in aero.

 

If they don't need them then there should be no advantage to them, and it shouldn't matter unless you want to spend that money. My PTE car was competitive at Nationals and West Coast Champs with a $900 junkyard motor while other folks were running $5000+ built motors...

 

True, but what happens when someone brings a low power Lola or SRF?

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gkmccready
True, but what happens when someone brings a low power Lola or SRF?

 

That's what the adjusted power-to-weight ratio is supposed to account for, right?

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mhoward1
True, but what happens when someone brings a low power Lola or SRF?

 

That's what the adjusted power-to-weight ratio is supposed to account for, right?

 

I have no idea, I was just asking. I love the idea personally, but I also know what a car and driver like Peter Krause can do.

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kbrew8991
Why should we keep the complicated modification points system? That is where most PT/TT competitors struggle. If adjusted power to weight works for "everybody" why not those cars, too?

Slow cars don't need $6,000 shocks and $10,000 in aero.

 

If they don't need them then there should be no advantage to them, and it shouldn't matter unless you want to spend that money. My PTE car was competitive at Nationals and West Coast Champs with a $900 junkyard motor while other folks were running $5000+ built motors...

small sample sizes used as iornclad evidence makes me laugh almost as much as someone saying people really want to build 20lb/hp but otherwise unlimited cars.

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ILIKETODRIVE
small sample sizes used as iornclad evidence makes me laugh almost as much as someone saying people really want to build 20lb/hp but otherwise unlimited cars.

This.

 

I'm 17:1 PTW. The last thing I want to do is spend more on anything since the rules say I can...

(and probably would have to because of course some guy is going to build an extreme aero and 3-way adjustable shocks and spherical bearings and tight gear ratio and clutch LSD and moar aero and racing slicks [remember: PTW hit, not points!] Miata)

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Sterling Doc

FWIW, I'd love to race against/in class with GTS guys. I even considered an Audi V8 swap to make that possible, instead of the "heathen" LS motor. I understand the class/brand Nationalism thing from my 944 Spec vs. SE30 days, but in the end, I think a bigger sandbox would be fun, after all the hand wringing was done.

 

I knew the implications of my swap, and don't expect a rules changes for my sake, but I think sometimes class pride gets in the way of simple racing, and having fun with a bigger circle of friends.

 

Then again, I'm not sure I want to race Cup cars, the Corvettes are bad enough.

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Cobra4B

Then again, I'm not sure I want to race Cup cars, the Corvettes are bad enough.

Porsche cup cars or NASCAR cup cars? Everyone told us we couldn't keep up with tube frame NASCARs, but they really just make for good racing.

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Sterling Doc

Porsche Cup cars. I jest - about the Corvettes, too.

I'm going partway down the "if you can't beat them, join them" route by sticking in a Corvette motor .

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UKRBMW

Guys - problem is not GTS, problem is ST national leadership. If they actually went and equalizied all the cars, got rid of crazy Porsche modifiers and really opened the class you might see more crossover. Right now it's just easier to run GTS. Plus, it doesn't help your cause when ST classes have some of the smallest car counts in the field...hey GTS guys, I know you have 4 in class, can you come run with with 1-2 in ST to make for a better race - that doesn't make sense.

 

With all due respect to the P crowd from GL/MW - those times for VIR and RA are simply not even close to being competitive with a real ST car that is well driven.

 

I'm all for it - create a bigger field, but you are barking up the wrong tree...

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Michael G.

Alex,

That is what I said on the page 1 of this discussion...

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

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hakeem

As I mentioned earlier, I don't think any of us care whether it's GTS joining ST, the other way around, or some new class entirely. Who cares whether GTS has 4 and ST has 2, the optimal net result is one class that has 6. Agree that some of the rules in ST make no sense, perhaps open up GTS to non German cars instead?

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mhoward1

Grand Sport Touring??

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ILIKETODRIVE
Grand Sport Touring??

GTS + ST = Grand Touring Sport Tier

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