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H4 new weights


honda318dx

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For the purpose of class parity, some of the minimum weights are being adjusted in the H4 class. Per rule 5.1.1, these changes will take place 10 days from this announcement.

 

88-91 Honda Civic & CRX (D16A6) are being changed to 2150 from 2175.

 

92-95 Honda Civic (D16Z6 SOHC VTEC) are being changed to 2255 from 2305.

 

94-01 Acura Integra (1.8L B18B, non vtec) is being changed to 2480 from 2525.

 

 

Parity with what Ryan?? Do you know that 3rd gen Integras and CRXs DOMINATE on the east coast, and you just lowered the weight even more? Why wasn't the weight droped in the Accords/Preludes??? Are you just trying to slow down the 2nd gen tegs?

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Corey, did anybody make a request to have the weights lowered?

if so what weight was requested?

how much weight could be shed?

what weight do you think they should be at?

these are the single cam F-motors right? if so my guess would be 2500ish to start, what do you think

 

bernardo

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Are you just trying to slow down the 2nd gen tegs?

 

 

Yep Thats whats goin on.

 

Well then RAISE the freaking weight of ONE car! I don't get it.

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Corey, did anybody make a request to have the weights lowered?
I have no clue, they just "poped" up.

 

what weight do you think they should be at?
Seemed fine to me. Apparently there is one fast guy on the West coast (black and yellow car) that keeps winning.

 

these are the single cam F-motors right? if so my guess would be 2500ish to start, what do you think
Either 2.0 or 2.1 Ltr DOHC engines for the prelude, 1988-1991, or SOHC F22 engines in 1992-1996 prelude and 1990-1997 accords. They already had weights that were competitive.

 

So, in an attempt to slow down one car we altered everyones weight but the one car? I have a 1994 accord HC4 car, so I'm slightly upset about this.

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what weight do you think they should be at?

 

Seemed fine to me. Apparently there is one fast guy on the West coast (black and yellow car) that keeps winning.

 

 

Dont forget I have only won 5 races this year the others are won by a 92 Civic and its getting a 50lbs weight reduction. It doesent make any sense.

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what weight do you think they should be at?

 

Seemed fine to me. Apparently there is one fast guy on the West coast (black and yellow car) that keeps winning.

 

 

Dont forget I have only won 5 races this year the others are won by a 92 Civic and its getting a 50lbs weight reduction. It doesent make any sense.

 

Your probably winning because your just a really fast driver.. Isn't it only ONE 2nd gen teg thats winning? They based the change off 1 car?

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Obviously the change is not the result of one car winning. As mentioned, I have won just as many races as the car in question - 5 each. The other races were one by another Civic hatch and the other by a CRX - 1 each.

 

But if you break things down, the DA seems to have a pretty good power to weigth ratio advantage over the other cars. What NASA seems to be doing is closing this gap.

 

Of course there are other factors that play into performance such as the car model itself - CRX has great weight distribution, DA seems to have better gearing, the Civic I am not sure what it is good at but the V-Tec seems to be what people think is good about it.

 

I don't know about the other models.

 

The EG is the least developed of the cars. The CRX has been in ITA for along time, the DA is now the "car to have" as many think. I haven't seem many EGs racing ITS, and they are just now classes in ITA. Maybe they will be developed to a point that they will need a weight adjustment in the future.

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This weight change is really gonna cause problems, The weight of the 2nd gen should be raised ! Its going to be very difficult for me to get my car down to 2480 with driver.

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But if you break things down, the DA seems to have a pretty good power to weigth ratio advantage over the other cars. What NASA seems to be doing is closing this gap.

 

Totally understand, but why did me and my accord pay because of the integra's advantage??? There are quite a few here on the east that are wondering what the hell is going on.

 

Why was the 2g Integra weight NOT raised?

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I am not sure why all cars were not addressed. Or maybe it was and nothing was done. No Accords on the West Coast so maybe it was overlooked. If so I am sure NASA would look at it and make a decision.

 

Weight could have been added. Not sure why it wasn't.

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what weight do you think they should be at?

 

Seemed fine to me. Apparently there is one fast guy on the West coast (black and yellow car) that keeps winning.

 

 

Dont forget I have only won 5 races this year the others are won by a 92 Civic and its getting a 50lbs weight reduction. It doesent make any sense.

 

Well I think it was to try to keep H4 cars in front of the 944-spec cars.

 

We have been getting alot faster and been some fights with H4 cars. Maybe the thought is that all the oither H4 car will be fast enough not battle with 944-spec cars.

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Corey, my questions were directed at the Prelude and Accord.

To me those weights seem high.

Make a request for a lower weight.

 

Andrew, i'm assuming your talking about a DC that car shouldn't have a problem making the new weight.

 

Edik, there's so much i could say but it takes me way to long to type out a post.

 

944-Spec#94, thanks for the comic relief in this thread.

 

b.

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Everyone who has posted to this thread contesting the new minimum weights, I suggest you cut and paste your suggestions onto a rules request form along with some technical data supporting your argument. The system works, just use it already. If you think your car is too heavy, then request a weight reduction. All the regional group leaders voted on this weight adjustment so the majority of the HC officals felt this was a needed change.

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Why was the 2g Integra weight NOT raised?

 

I would argue that the DA weight was not raised in order to keep its min weight alligned with SCCA ITA weights.

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Why was the 2g Integra weight NOT raised?

 

I would argue that the DA weight was not raised in order to keep its min weight alligned with SCCA ITA weights.

 

I cant buy this argument, it ALWAYS easier to add weight than take it off. the weight should have been raised.

 

All of the regional heads voted on this?? I am glad someone asked us about it...

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Everyone who has posted to this thread contesting the new minimum weights, I suggest you cut and paste your suggestions onto a rules request form along with some technical data supporting your argument. The system works, just use it already. If you think your car is too heavy, then request a weight reduction. All the regional group leaders voted on this weight adjustment so the majority of the HC officals felt this was a needed change.

 

Everyone that posted wants to know why the hell this decission was made.?. What should we request ? Everything was fine the way it was! This obvously shows the SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK. On the east coast there are only 2 2g integras, one that races every once in awile, and one thats just starting out.

 

I have been with honda-challenge since the talks started and have been racing since the 1st ever race at CMP in 2002. I've been around long enough to know a good decission from a bad one.

 

What about a 3rd Gen's teg ITA weight? Thats not on with SCCA.. What about a SOHC VTEC Civic weight? Thats not on with SCCA..

 

I'm confused...

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944-Spec#94, thanks for the comic relief in this thread.

 

b.

 

You call it comic relief, but make many of the H4 cars 1 second faster and there will be fewer battles with the 944-spec cars.

 

Honestly I would love to make the 944-spec cars faster to the point were it is easier to pass the pesky H4 cars. As stood before the change both class were very close in speed making it very hard not to strong in class battles get caught up with each other.

 

...I'd however think we were NOT the reason or had any impact in the change. I did think it was rather interesting as to how it would impact the 944's

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Folks,

 

Please understand that we do our best to keep competition as close as possible. We have a rule committee that looks at rule requests and makes the best decisions based on the information at hand. We have been considering this weight change for a very long time to collect data and watch the competition. We have Dyno sheets for all cars that were changed and also extensive real world performance data on all cars. We have evaluated cars that are prepped to a level allowed by the rules, and have been driven by proven drivers like Martinez, Ellsworth, Royce, Hohwart, Stepanyan, and Lepper. Needless to say, we have very good data to evaluate. In addition, NASA has the experience with other classes to know what makes significance difference on the race track. One of the huge differences is torque. If you do the HP and TQ ratios strictly by the numbers the 2nd Gen is STILL in favor. Numbers are not the only factor but just as an example the HP/TQ Dyno numbers (same dyno) for "built" engines are:

 

CRX- 121/108 = 17.76:1 (HP)/ 19.90:1(TQ)

Civic- 131/107= 17.21:1 (HP)/ 21:1 (TQ)

2ndTeg-148/133= 16.75:1 (HP)/ 18.64:1 (TQ)

 

There are many other factors that we consider such as weight, brakes, wheelbase, transmission, power under the curve, etc, etc. The bottom line is we do a LOT of research and are very informed. It is insulting to hear our racers talk like this and call us stupid. I know for a fact, that we have more data about all the cars than any single competitor. NASA officials put a huge effort into getting info to make the right decisions. Not everything will be right, but we do our best. If you have a car that you feel is not classified properly, then send us some data to plead your case. The reality of this whole situation is that the weight changes are less impact than the weight of a tank of fuel. Someone show me they consistently run a second slower with a full tank of gas. I highly doubt we will see much difference. If a car becomes dominant then we will look at the reasons why and make more changes if necessary. You should be happy that we care enough to make changes. Lets do ourselves a favor and not get all worked up about a very small item such as this. We have a great series, and great competitors. Focus on the fun of racing!

 

Regards,

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This has nothing to do with 944's. With big groups of both classes there is a big time spread from fastest to slowest and cars will mix. We dont make rules based on the performance of another class. The H4 cars and 944's will always be very close.

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Folks,

 

CRX- 121/108 = 17.76:1 (HP)/ 19.90:1(TQ)

CRX is more like 130 And there is proof.

 

Civic- 131/107= 17.21:1 (HP)/ 21:1 (TQ)

I have seen D16Z6 make 139HP, Also why do the civic have integra sized brakes?

 

2ndTeg-148/133= 16.75:1 (HP)/ 18.64:1 (TQ)

That 148 was a fluke I have never gotten more than 143 ever.

 

 

 

What I wrote is in Bold.

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All of the regional heads voted on this?? I am glad someone asked us about it...

 

there are 4 people on the rules committy from all regions they are the people who vote.

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Ryan, I am a HUGE supporter of the HC, thats why I care when decissions are made by only 4 people.

 

1.) We all know that Dynos vary very much! On track performance is the true way to document performance. (well, not really but equal driver/equipment it is)

 

2.) Power to weight does not exactly mean faster laps. I'll take a 100hp, 1000lb car over a 200hp 2000lb car anyday, anyracer would.

 

3.) Were the other cars in the class (accords/preludes) even considered when this rule was decided? Did anyone ask what even the dyno numbers for my car 5th gen accord, the 3rd gen prelude, or the 4th gen accord put down that run on the East Coast? Last I checked, they arn't dominant at all, but they just lost 50lbs to the front runners.

 

4.) Still, why wasn't weight just simply added to the 2nd gen integra. I'll be the first to commend a good decission, but to simply say "bam, new rules" without any rationale and not have people react is pretty crazy..

 

Ok, I'm done venting.

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