H4 new weights

[mikeski38]

That makes sense, thanks for the clarification.

[BrianZ]

I'm still wondering why the other cars in the class weren't considered with this change.

 

Did anyone fill out a rule requst form for these cars?

 

It is to my understanding that they have been looking at these changes for a while. It took them time to collect data and make a descion

[civicrr]

I'm still wondering why the other cars in the class weren't considered with this change.

 

 

Cory,

What makes you assume that the other class cars weren't considered? We tried to consider all the cars in the class.

 

As I said before, the Accord & Prelude were purposedly classed conservatively in regards to min. weight. This was done because we felt that an weight adjustment, to equalize the competition, would be fairly easy to do (yeah, right ) if needed. We have recieved no indication, that I know of, that there would be a need to change the weights of those two cars - formally (rules request) or informally - before or after the other weight changes take place.

 

That being said, only time will tell if we have gotten it right. More adjustments might be needed - or none at all. We may have even gone the wrong way & screwed it all up.

[honda318dx]

Hum, I guess what I understand is the weight loss to all the other cars was to "slow down" the 2nd gen teg. I understand that part, reason is why I'm upset is if the idea is to slow 1 car down, ALL in class should move.

 

The accords seem pretty competitive at 2600lbs, but they won't win here with that weight ( I did get lucky and win one race )

[George Knighton]

I am an outsider. I am not a racer.

 

However, I have been involved with Honda Challenge since the idea first occurred to Karl and Scott and was discussed at Honda Tech, and I am still intimately involved with keeping three Honda Challenge cars running.

 

This particular change does not make sense to me, and it will have the net result of affecting the lives of a number of drivers and teams instead of just one or two.

 

The argument was made that the people who made the rule know what they're doing and that they have access to information that other people do not have, but then a few posts later the counter challenge was made that a rules change proposal should have been made for Preludes and Accords. This tells me that it's a fallacy that the people who made the rule had all the information that was available.

 

It's not the biggest deal in the world, it certainly doesn't mean the end of the world...but the change was not thoroughly and carefully, properly taken with full knowledge of the facts and consequences.

[BrianZ]

but the change was not thoroughly and carefully, properly taken with full knowledge of the facts and consequences.

 

I'm sorry... but I believe it was done VERY carefully, and I think they looked at as many of the pro and cons of this change.

 

what do you think was so wrong with this change? you say its going to have a negative affect but you do not support your statement. I'm sure the rule makers would like to hear your side (even though your not a competitor). That way they can know "all the facts"

[slammed_93_hatch]

The argument was made that the people who made the rule know what they're doing and that they have access to information that other people do not have, but then a few posts later the counter challenge was made that a rules change proposal should have been made for Preludes and Accords. This tells me that it's a fallacy that the people who made the rule had all the information that was available.

.

 

i asked the question earlier and never got an answer, but have prelude and accords been built to the limit of the rules and driven by good drivers?

 

I have no clue of the skills that corey or others who drive these cars in question, and i also have no clue about there prep level. So knowing this info could help to shed some light on the situation.

 

And i will say this again, it is my understanding that for a change like this to take place they must get a rules request form, then they will address the issue. If prior to this the accord was not competitive and the drivers felt they did all they could to get it to go fast then why didn't they send in a rules request form?

 

The reason why i feel the other cars in the class were not addressed is because the issue was raised to them that there needed to be a change amongst the cars. Now im guessing who ever submited the rules request had alot of info to back up his case. When it came to the accords/preludes if no issue had been raised befor then the rules commite would have no reason to look at those cars.

 

Still i submit to who ever races these cars to SEND in a rules request and make a formal statement about it.

 

I suggested the same thing befor when questioning of a cars classification was brought up, it seemed to be ignored and people kept debating about were they thought it should be classed, all the while a formal classification request has never been sent in.

 

So do you really care were these cars are classed and what weights if you don't take the time to fill out the forms?

 

I would think not

[George Knighton]

I understand what you're saying.

 

I would never have posted except that there appeared to be a rather imperial assertion that all angles had been considered, and that all information was available to the people considering the rules change.

 

The squeaky wheel got the attention, I guess.

[slammed_93_hatch]

I understand what you're saying.

 

I would never have posted except that there appeared to be a rather imperial assertion that all angles had been considered, and that all information was available to the people considering the rules change.

 

 

and if the information at present, which is that no one has ever sent anything in about accord/prelude weight, then all angels have been covered. because if the drivers don't think a change should be made then why would the rules commite.

 

That's my take on the issue, might be wrong might be right. I guess its the fact that school started and we have had are first meatings for the debate team, so im in the mind set of checking all the angles.

[George Knighton]

and if the information at present, which is that no one has ever sent anything in about accord/prelude weight, then all angels have been covered.

 

If you're on the debate team then you know perfectly well that there is a logical fallacy in that.

[slammed_93_hatch]

and if the information at present, which is that no one has ever sent anything in about accord/prelude weight, then all angels have been covered.

 

If you're on the debate team then you know perfectly well that there is a logical fallacy in that.

 

well yes in a perfect world there is.

 

 

the Rules commeti has a job, and thats to listen to the racers and try and take what concerns they have and see if they are vailed. If nothing was pointed out to them then there is no issue.

[George Knighton]

the Rules commeti has a job, and thats to listen to the racers and try and take what concerns they have and see if they are vailed. If nothing was pointed out to them then there is no issue.

 

The grand jury system only works because the jurors have the right to seek more information than is being presented to them.

 

I understand what happend.

 

I do not understand how anyone can adopt the official stance that the group had access to all this information and that their decision is unimpeachable.

 

I do not feel that an enough of an investigative effort was made.

 

If all decisions are made this way, you'll surely have to admit that there's a chance we'll end up with some pretty weird decisions.

 

You can't just act on the information that's being handed to you.

 

A little insight and investigation is a good idea.

[ITAIntegraLS]

 

You can't just act on the information that's being handed to you.

 

A little insight and investigation is a good idea.

 

 

I like that, Some was done but not enough insight.

[ITAIntegraLS]

i asked the question earlier and never got an answer, but have prelude and accords been built to the limit of the rules and driven by good drivers?

 

 

have Civic and DC's been built to the limit of the rules and driven by good drivers?

 

no offense to anyone

[ITAIntegraLS]

Hey Edik,

 

In the photo you posted on honda-tech of the engine you blew at infineon, why can't I see the adjacent pistons? In the above photo of the head, I can clearly see the adjacent valves. Did you already remove the pistons to be reused?

 

 

Here you go Mike. Just in case anyone is interested My engine is for sale after every race weekend. Come and talk to me for price.

[slammed_93_hatch]

i asked the question earlier and never got an answer, but have prelude and accords been built to the limit of the rules and driven by good drivers?

 

 

have Civic and DC's been built to the limit of the rules and driven by good drivers?

 

no offense to anyone

 

IMO yes.

[civicrr]

 

I do not understand how anyone can adopt the official stance that the group had access to all this information and that their decision is unimpeachable.

 

I do not feel that an enough of an investigative effort was made.

 

If all decisions are made this way, you'll surely have to admit that there's a chance we'll end up with some pretty weird decisions.

 

You can't just act on the information that's being handed to you.

 

A little insight and investigation is a good idea.

 

George,

You have made quite a few assumptions. I can't find an explanation for you arriving at them.

 

Regarding your earlier post:

Perhaps I don't understand your statement. I believe you are saying that if we had just changed the weight on one car, it wouldn't have had an effect on the other racers in H4. As I said, there still would have been changes to more than one car. The three cars that were assigned new weights were changed 25, 50 & 45 lbs. Changing the 2nd gen 'teg alone wouldn't have netted the same results. How could it?

 

I don't believe any member of the rules committee said that a rules request form should have been submitted. I did say that the weights were assigned conservatively. These are 'new' class cars compared to the others. I would wagger that even being 'insightful' wouldn't allow you to arrive @ the correct weight on the first attempt.

 

Regarding this post:

Did an official say that the committees decision was unimpeachable? That was never stated or implied. In fact, I said that more adjustments might be needed. We as a group do have access to quite a bit of information. I would bet that the group does have access to more info about all the cars than a single racer. Wouldn't bet my life on it though:wink:

 

Please reread the posts. We didn't just act on imformation that was handed to us. How did you arrive @ this perception? We, the rules committee, were considering the need for adjustments for more than two years. I am pretty sure this was stated. It took that long to make sure that cars were built to the limit & driven by racers able to wring out all the performance that car had. We were gathering more data. This is on cars that were, in many ways, known quantities.

 

You are entitled to your own opinion on how much research was done.

I believe that you are wrong. We didn't just act on information that was handed to us. What you should know is that research was done. Educated opinions were formed from that information. Our best attempts were made to arrive @ new weights.

[ITAIntegraLS]

have Civic and DC's been built to the limit of the rules and driven by good drivers?

 

no offense to anyone

IMO yes.

 

In Socal, Rick is a great driver but his civic is not built to the limit of the rules Yet.

[slammed_93_hatch]

so i decided to do some research on the accord form 1990-1997, i used msn autos to get the info im not sure if they are correct but they had the most comprehinsive list i could find.

 

And on stock numbers they don't appear far off, from a strict power to weight ratio standard, its kinda of hard to find tranny info online and such, and im not sure if these number are right, but the stock number for the other cars appeared to be on with what i have seen.

 

now this is what i found interesting, i found this in the accord classification post.

 

 

But years before that was never changed... So what are we going to class the EX as? It would never be fast enough to play in H3. I do think my LX could be a contender if one was preped like it should at 2600lbs. So 2700lbs for a EX?

 

whats important is in bold.

 

So corey if you feel that your car could be a contender then why are you so upset?

[slammed_93_hatch]

i did a few more calculations using the numbers ryan gave, and stock numbers that i confirmed on 3 different sites for the 1995accord.

 

and when comparing the accord to the civic, the civic has the HP to lbs advantage, and the accored has the tq to lbs advantage.

 

 

when comparing the accord to the Crx, the crx has the advantage in the hp to lbs, and the accord again has the advantage in the tq to lbs.

 

 

when comparing the accord to the 2g teg we find the integra having the advantage in both tq to lbs (just barly), and in hp to lbs.

 

so when comparing these numbers it seems like everything is fairly level, and from what i have seen DC integra numbers do not exceed the Da numbers.

 

But keep in mind i used stock numbers for the accord, and the numbers that ryan provided were of built motors.

 

i do know that there are other factors, but this is just one comparision.

[SPiFF]

Seems like the thing that rubs some of the guys wrong is the feeling that the ECHC wasn't asked for input in the decision. We have DAs, DC, Civics, Predules, and Accords running out here.

 

IMHO, the strength of NASA is the openess. I would hope we don't start to do the rules request and then a secret meeting like the S-Club does. Perhaps the east group leaders were asked for input and didn't do anything. Shame on them if that is the case.

 

I will also say that we don't have any fully developed Accords or Preludes, so we don't know their full potential just yet.

 

I would also suggest that changes like this take effect the following season instead of right away. We had a race out here a few weeks after this was posted. It makes it hard for people to prep when the rulebook is changing mid season.

[George Knighton]

Seems like the thing that rubs some of the guys wrong is the feeling that the ECHC wasn't asked for input in the decision.

 

I think that might be EXACTLY why a couple of people took umbrage, especially since some of them drive cars directly affected.

[honda318dx]

 

 

But years before that was never changed... So what are we going to class the EX as? It would never be fast enough to play in H3. I do think my LX could be a contender if one was preped like it should at 2600lbs. So 2700lbs for a EX?

 

whats important is in bold.

 

So corey if you feel that your car could be a contender then why are you so upset?

 

Ha! Yes, the car COULD have been a contender at 2600, but now, the top cars just got a weight reduction..

 

People keep saying to submit the form, or why didn't I. Its because I didn't know about a possible weight change until after the fact.

[George Knighton]

George,

You have made quite a few assumptions.

 

I did, and I have to say that I very much appreciate the serious address that my comments received.

 

Thank you very much.

 

Now, however, since "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds," I really need to retire from this discussion because I barely know what I'm talking about.

[civicrr]

Gentlemen,

I don't think any of you are uninformed or that your opinions don't matter. Quite the contarary, I believe you the racers, crew & series supporters are what matters. This series was formed for the racers by racers. I too remember the birth of the series from a crazy idea. We work hard to keep the ideals that Scott & Karl created for the series.

 

Unfortunately, it seems to me that there still might be a undercurrent/feeling that we in the west don't care about any region(s) but our own. I have got to tell you that isn't the case. (As a reminder, the rules committee has an equal number of EC & WC guys on it. Our mission is to not only represent our 'local' racers but to do what we think best for the series on a National level. Believe me, it is very hard to do this. A decision made in the present can & does have long term effects.)

 

Early in the year, it seemed that communication or lack there of was the main sticking point. I tried to address this with the creation of the rules request form. This was an 'official' way to say that a rule wasn't right or needed a tweak. The form was structured so that all the pertinate info could be in one place instead of a series of 'notes' or emails. That was the start. I had other plans after getting some input - but my posts were for the most part unanswered (ECHC comp. forum on HA.net). I basically gave up 'cuz my life is busy between family life, projects @ work (fire dept.), my business (pdq motorsports) & more family life. If I was going to use up more of my free time, I wanted someone to care or least fake it.

 

Still seems like communication is the sticking point. Looks like we will need to discuss it again. Somehow, we will need to get info out to the racers....earlier. In this way, perhaps your opinions could be voiced.

Anyway, if you keep racing, we will keep trying.

 

Mike

 

edit for spelling -probably missed some more anyway

Edited September 4, 2005 by Guest