ST2 and ST3 signups at ECC 2015

[brkntrxn]

ST2 and ST3 signups at ECC 2015 are looking pathetic!!! For that matter, so are TT2 and TT3 entries.

 

What gives people?

 

 

https://www.nasaproracing.com/events/2084/entry_list?direction=asc&sort=class

[LJ32]

I was told I needed to buy an BMW if I wanted to have someone to race.

lol

[erik911]

Come West to Laguna. Looks like 17 ST3 and 11 ST2 cars signed up so far.

 

Oddly the GTS numbers are relatively low compared to last year (full disclosure...I own both a Porsche and a BMW race car but run both in ST3/TT3).

[Sterling Doc]

Looks like I tried to sign up twice to help, LOL. I could go ST2 or 3. So far signed up in 3.

 

I know the other 3 MW guys feel it is too far. I'm surprised more Great Lakes guys aren't coming - closer, and they're definitely fast!

[brkntrxn]

I was told I needed to buy an BMW if I wanted to have someone to race.

lol

 

 

Ha, yeah, I hear ya. They do have nice numbers at ECC.

[zigspeed10]

I'll be signing up for ST3, just need to make sure my car will make it. In the middle of rebuilding clutch and torque tube right now.

 

There's probably two other ST3 cars from the Great Lakes that will be signing up too.

[LJ32]

Sheesh!

Turbo all blowed up last weekend...

A piece of the turbine broke from hitting the housing so im gonna have to track that down. Not sure if its sitting in my engine or not...

 

I was all qualified up to Come back out to VIR.

 

guess ill be wrenching...

[umades]

Kevin, after the spanking you and Ziggy put on the rest of the ST3 field last year in the ECC at RA, TRs are headed to the WCC - bucket list, check one block. So, you won't even have to try hard to get a podium finish. Not that it was even close at last year's ECC. LS is more friendly to our cars than VIR according to the data and maybe we can overcome the torque deficit. Still waiting to hear what you would do to a TR to make it more evenly matched to the ( lets get ready to RUMMMMBBBLLE ) detuned Vettes.

[haase1375]

well said, after a long thought process I have decided to pull out of the ECC 2015 since my TR with 1300cc 4 cylinder with 109 ft lb of tq engines do not even chance in hel... against those so called detuned corvettes. I did learned a lesson in 2014 ecc.

 

I hope the god's in NASA would make changes to the ST rules for 2016 season and keep the st groups far apart enough to a point that the detuned cars can not go down to slower entry class and cherry pick a national championship.

I would like to wish best of luck to those guys that going to vir and hope you guys have a large group of st3 cars, just watch out for those corvettes...

 

the above statement is my view only.

 

regards to all

firouz

[brkntrxn]

You two are ridiculous. What part of a HORSEPOWER to WEIGHT class structure is hard to understand? Anyone can ADD/REMOVE power or ADD/REMOVE weight. The same rules apply to everyone.

 

Mike,

 

For a Thunder Roadster in ST trim, I'd put a ZTEC motor in it and figure out a transmission to go with it that would work in the TR layout. Then I would start adding all the parts from the SVT Focus catalogue to make more power and more torque. If I found the transmission/transaxle issue to hard to resolve, I would get a Busa engine and build the crap out of it. Then I would go about making the car as "slick" as possible with good downforce. And I would go to a wider, stickier tire.

 

 

Firouz,

 

Your car is subject to the same rules as mine in the ST formulas. In fact, your car has an advantage over mine because it is a purpose-built race car yet it has been given production status. And it has been given weight breaks mine has not. ANYONE can add more power to their car, take power away, add weight, or remove weight. What is so different from electronically detuning my car versus someone installing a throttle stop on a carburetor or on a gas pedal? Nothing. We have beaten this horse until it is a pile of glue.

 

If I were allowed to play in PTB, that is where I would be. I did some quick math and I can put ALL of my interior, headlights, OEM equipment back in the car, AND add ballast up to the max and be at the PTB hp:wt ratio. Is it unfair that I cannot run in that class although I can hit the numbers just by putting OEM equipment back in the car?

 

What is to keep a Viper, Ferrari, or Lambo from putting a mechanical throttle stop on the car and running in ST2 or ST3? Nothing. And I would welcome them if they did.

 

Build your car to the existing rules. We did.

 

As for ST3 at ECC, right now there is only ONE. And it is not me. I am signed up for ST2.

[umades]

Kevin, I'm not sure how choosing to race at a track that might favor my car's characteristics and avoiding tracks that don't makes me ridiculous. The bucket list aspect and track format is why I'm going to try Laguna Seca and not VIR for championships this year.

 

I appreciate your thoughts on how to make my TR more competitive with the big cube high torque cars and I think you are correct. Slickness and Downess are gooood. Too much tinkering with weight and drive train configuration could change the "fun to drive" aspect of the TR and for now I will just work on my driving skills and racecraft. Tons of room to improve in those two categories.

 

Kudos to you for preparing a car that uses the full extent of the rules. No problem from me on that point. I'm just trying to catch you.

 

My comment regarding an easy podium was a little dig at those racers who seek out small fields to enhance the probability of a trophy. No way would I ever intentionally insinuate that about you. You prepare well and compete hard. I have seen you work hard most of the night to correct a cooling problem and race the next day. On the track, you race clean and hard, giving no quarter. And you are helpful to me and others in the paddock

[haase1375]

kevin,

 

first of all let me say you are doing good by running in st2 class. you have a fast car you drive good and work very hard. I truly wish you the very best in ecc this year. now pls allow me to answer your points.

1- the thunder roadster chasse is designed around motorcycle engine

2- it is designed to be low maintenance and simple to work on at a very low cost and budget

3- installing higher hp engine per your idea will compromise the chasse design and strength.

4-thunder roadster fits great into st3 class as a entry level into a race group.

5- the aero in thunder roadster can not be changed for better on straight due to the design of the frame and body work hangs.

6- the tr has under 180 hp and 110 lb of tq

7- the engine has to stay stock due to the agreement among the owner to keep the cost down. bought my engine on ebay for $2500

so doing modification to a tr in order to compete with a detuned corvette in not possible. I think detuning a 500 hp /500 lb tq and entering a st3 class and to bet up on much lower hp entry level car is wrong. correct me if I am wrong if a 500hp ( I am just using 500 as example) engine is detuned to 330 hp with electronics the same electronics could be reversed back to 500 with a push of a button. I just bought a bmw m6 with 500 hp. without M button 340 hp with M button 500. correct me if I am wrong by changing of a rpm chip someone could turn the engine from 3500 all the way to 8 k thus changing the hp. I think only su,st1 should be detune and not st2 to run in st3,

I hope the rules changes with much larger gap between classes so we do not have these detune issues in future. if not then not. I am not going to vir just because of that reason. i learned a in your face lesson last year and saw how a detuned corvette could run 4+ seconds a lap faster then fastest tr, after all we do this racing thing for fun and i can have just as much fun running in nasa Texas where st3 class is all in plain level field and we have a great time. after all said and done i hope there is a great turn out in st3 and all other st group.

 

very best wishes

firouz

[braknl8]

C5 was a low cost car to race until others bought slower cars and wanted to run in classes they weren't intended for, then whined until the corvettes were pushed up the class ladder. The rules and classes no longer really mean anything to me...just an outside observation.

[umades]

OK. I'm done on this thread. I thought I was answering the question as to why the car count was low in the class I run (ST3) at ECC. Seems that my answer turned out to be a complaint about the class rules by the responses. I retract any part of my post that insinuates that there should be a rule change or that anyone that meets class rules shouldn't run in that class.

 

Racers should build their car to the class they want to run, period.

[Varkwso]

Rule changes effect car counts and well developed cars will win in all classes. The C5 Is pushing 20 Years old and makes a hell of a race car. The "near stock" option was killed long ago.

[drivinhardz06]

The C5 Is pushing 20 Years old and makes a hell of a race car.

 

Older than that in reality, first C5 CERV car was built in '93 and with GM's $$ woes, it took them until '97 to debut it.

 

It's a Seinfeld era chevy with pushrods and leaf springs. What's the fuss?

[braknl8]

OK. I'm done on this thread.

 

The issue is that no TR owner wants to mod past the point of reliability in these discussions.  What if you were made to add a turbo (and build the motor to live), redesign the chassis for better aero (and your suspension to work with said aero), buy larger wheels to accommodate the needed wider rubber (and bodywork to accommodate)? And I say "made"...not having a choice of a low-cost spec class....made, if you don't, you don't play at all....not just that you would like to play in another class...only option.

 

No one on a realistic, grassroots budget wants to have to do that but that is what's being asked of every c5/6 owner as it's gone from xxb-xx3 (pushing for xx2) in the last 3 yrs, is it not?

 

Not trying to make enemies, just asking to think about it for a second.

[haase1375]

I am done discussing this subject. good luck to all in ecc 2015

 

firouz

[LJ32]

Chris, man your spot on. Nobody wants to Modify out of reliability.

I speak from first hand experience. I took a great reliable car and cocked it up trying to run it in st3 when I should have run in honda challenge. You won't hear me complaining tho, I know what I signed up for. ST is a different monster. I can see the point to argue st3 should be a higher ratio, pushing 8 cylinders to ST2 and up. Its just not practical to try and run a 4 cylinder at that ratio unless you figure hp AND tq into the equation.

But, I've said it once and ill say it again... TR's belong in there own class, advantage or not. They are just to far away from a "GT Car" to be comparable. Its like running a legend in a PT class.

 

I say the TR guys should give skyactiv a call and go in on a set of motors! why? Its just the nature of the beast that is ST! Just dont wait till I find the right turbo v6 diesel for the s2000 cuz if I do, everyone of you will be will be crying like Caitlyn Jenner at the ESPY awards!!! LMFAO!!!!!!!

[UKRBMW]

I'm going to contribute 0 value to this thread, but it is a funny read!!! 8 years I've been running with NASA and all the people in charge only made ST shrink more and more. Good luck to you guys in September - I'll be watching it on race monitor.

[Varkwso]

I'm going to contribute 0 value to this thread, but it is a funny read!!! 8 years I've been running with NASA and all the people in charge only made ST shrink more and more. Good luck to you guys in September - I'll be watching it on race monitor.

 

So what thread have you added value to ?

[bpanther]

I'm not fanning any flames, so no need for further posts on why needed.

 

But.... I am pretty bummed the other ST3 cars bailed on VIR. As the lone car I got bumped to ST2. Oh, well - I'd rather run VIR as an underdog instead of staying home.

[Sterling Doc]

Good to hear you are staying with it, Dave. I self-bumped from 3 to 2. Race car is going on a diet!

 

I am using the ST "budget strategy"

 

1. Buy cheap older/lighter chassis ($1,500 944 turbo donor)

2. Sell parts to make it "free"

3. Install LS motor

4. Adapt used NASCAR, or circle track part (brakes, etc.)

5. Horse trade on internet for use aero, wheels etc. Look for race car partouts.

6. Receive generosity from other ST/NASA racers who are buying new stuff (Lots of Fiberglass parts from people moving to carbon).

7. Exploit contingencies for tires, video sytems etc. (Traqmate, Mobius)

8. Put lots of hours of "free labor" in.

 

 

I am having a lot of fun with ST build. We do this for fun, right?

[bpanther]

It'll be great to so you Eric and Linda at VIR.

 

 

We did budget ST on the new car as well. I wish I could go on a diet for it tpo get closer to ST2, but being what it is, it doesn't get much lighter. More HP isn't in the budget right now and it dyno'ed at 253.

 

$2000 for roller road race Howe stock car chassis.

Engine and tranny = free from our munched CMC car.

$1300 for new fuel cell

Lots of "free" low heat cycle tires from local circle track races.

 

$1000 or so in parts for custom intake, headers and plumbing to adapt the engine to the chassis. This was mainly because I wanted to stuff the 4.6 FI engine into the car vs a carbed 5L. I like to tinker.

 

 

We ran a 335 HP underdog car at Laguna that I borrowed from Dave Wright. It ended up in ST1 - way at the bottom of ST1. Still had a great time and managed to squeek out decent finishes in ST1 and TT1. So, yes it apparently is for fun.

[Sterling Doc]

Well, you did significantly better yet than I did. Fitting a Ford 4.6 in one must have been interesting!

 

I may not get all the way down to weight, but the LS motor does put down about 350HP/360 TQ - internally stock '04 GTO motor and cam. No power anything, or driver aids. Easy, reliable! The motor was the cheap part though - the conversion parts did add up a bit.

 

Looking forward to seeing all you & all my friends from around the country at VIR.