RX8 and the sedan allowance

[Grintch]

Can a 4 door RX8 take the TTx +0.2 sedan adjustment factor?

[kbrew8991]

When these cars were new they didn't get it, doubt it would change now.

[TurboShortBus]

I will say, though, that I haven't found anything in the TT or PT rules that state that the RX8 is not a 4-door car. Or, maybe I haven't looked hard enough.

 

What makes a door a door? Hinges and handles, right? I count 4 sets of each on an RX8, so I can see where a competitor could make a case that an RX8 is a 4-door car and take the +0.2 adjustment.

 

FWIW, a "sedan" can have 2 or 4 doors.

 

I have stated for several seasons that any adjustment factor that gives 4-door cars an advantage over 2-door cars should be removed. The argument has been that 4-door cars are "less aerodynamic," although I would like to know the aerodynamic differences between a 2-door E30 and a 4-door E30.

 

IMO, as soon as you can find a 2-door car with the same silhouette as its 4-door version, the aero argument goes out the window.

 

Mark

[obzezzed350]

Maybe because the rear doors can't open unless the front doors are opened first?

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Maybe because when the doors are open there isn't a proper b-pillar.

 

I think the *doors* mostly serve to assist entry/exit for the rear seats.

[TurboShortBus]

Maybe because the rear doors can't open unless the front doors are opened first?

Note that there are plenty of (older) cars out there without proper B-pillars.

 

Maybe because when the doors are open there isn't a proper b-pillar.

 

I think the *doors* mostly serve to assist entry/exit for the rear seats.

Nowhere is it stated in the rules that any of these items prevent those rear thingys in an RX8 from being a door. They are on the side of the car. They have hinges and latches. People get in and out through them. What else would you call them?

 

I'm not sayin...I'm just sayin...

 

Note that my 2004 F-150, with an identical door layout (rear suicide doors that open only after the front doors are open), is considered a 4-door vehicle when I look it up on KBB.com.

 

Without further definitions or limitations, and under the current rules, I would consider an RX8 to have 4 doors, as I have no valid argument to support the claim that it is only a 2-door car. However, a simple tech bulletin and/or addition to the rules (which might be out there somewhere that I missed) that specifically states, "Hey y'all, RX8s are considered to be 2-door cars" would crush this debate entirely.

 

Mark

[AZELISE]

Wiki calls it a quad coupe.

 

One definition of a coupe I found claimed less than 33 cubic feet REAR passenger volume and it is a coupe. Otherwise it is a sedan.

 

A clarification would be nice.

 

Maybe it is similar to the way a judge defined obscenity, "I know it when I see it."

[Arca_ex]

There is a post here from 2009 where Greg claimed this:

 

The rules call for a "4-door sedan or 5-door wagon" +0.4

The RX-8 is a 4-door coupe or 4-door sports car, depending on where it is printed. So, I would say that it does not get the 4 door sedan break.

 

 

So this thread is a bit of a moot point.

 

For what it's worth, the body style code on my Arizona title for my 2005 RX-8 is CP which stands for Coupe.

 

That being said, I think the 4 door sedan/5 door wagon handicap is stupid and should be removed entirely. I don't think a valid reasoning has ever been explained as to why it exists.

[AZELISE]

There is a post here from 2009 where Greg claimed this:

 

The rules call for a "4-door sedan or 5-door wagon" +0.4

The RX-8 is a 4-door coupe or 4-door sports car, depending on where it is printed. So, I would say that it does not get the 4 door sedan break.

 

 

So this thread is a bit of a moot point.

 

For what it's worth, the body style code on my Arizona title for my 2005 RX-8 is CP which stands for Coupe.

 

That being said, I think the 4 door sedan/5 door wagon handicap is stupid and should be removed entirely. I don't think a valid reasoning has ever been explained as to why it exists.

 

Thanks for finding that quote. I spent 20 minutes looking for that!

 

I believe the original intention for the modifier was due to the advantage most coupes have. (Better aerodynamics, stiffer chassis and shorter wheelbase) However, many sedans have the same profile and wheelbase as coupes and have the same or stiffer chassis these days. Also, lately many TT cars have rollbars and cages anyways. So, it might be time to get rid of the sedan advantage.

[TurboShortBus]

There is a post here from 2009 where Greg claimed this:

While I appreciate the search efforts, I am having a hard time accepting that a 6 year old forum post, without any sort of backup in the rules or a technical bulletin, results in an official determination.

 

I believe the original intention for the modifier was due to the advantage most coupes have. (Better aerodynamics, stiffer chassis and shorter wheelbase) However, many sedans have the same profile and wheelbase as coupes and have the same or stiffer chassis these days. Also, lately many TT cars have rollbars and cages anyways. So, it might be time to get rid of the sedan advantage.

Again, IMO, as soon as you can find a 2-door car with the same silhouette, wheelbase, etc. as its 4-door version, the aero argument goes out the window for all cars. BMW E30s are an example. Same hoods, same trunk lids, same wheelbases, same windshields, same rear windows. No difference = no advantage.

 

As for chassis integrity, many E30 people (and others) claim that 4-door cars are more rigid, although none of them appear to have done any structural research; so, it looks like internet conjecture without evidence (both ways).

 

That being said, I think the 4 door sedan/5 door wagon handicap is stupid and should be removed entirely.

So, it might be time to get rid of the sedan advantage.

^^^ Agreed. This will be on my list of 2016 rules revisions suggestions again. At least that adjustment factor has been creeping down lately; so, it's a move in the right direction.

 

Mark

[ILIKETODRIVE]

One definition of a coupe I found claimed less than 33 cubic feet REAR passenger volume and it is a coupe. Otherwise it is a sedan.

That's what I was trying to say but didn't know how to say it...or that I was actually trying to say it...lol.

 

Nowhere is it stated in the rules that any of these items prevent those rear thingys in an RX8 from being a door. They are on the side of the car. They have hinges and latches. People get in and out through them. What else would you call them?

 

These are on the side of a house. They have hinges and latches. People can go in and out of them. Are they doors?

[TurboShortBus]

 

These are on the side of a house. They have hinges and latches. People can go in and out of them. Are they doors?

Uh, do you run your house in TT?

 

Mark

[ILIKETODRIVE]

 

These are on the side of a house. They have hinges and latches. People can go in and out of them. Are they doors?

Uh, do you run your house in TT?

 

Mark

 

No, but my point still stands. Just because you can describe one item as having specific features doesn't mean it can't apply to other items.

[TurboShortBus]

No, but my point still stands. Just because you can describe one item as having specific features doesn't mean it can't apply to other items.

Context fail. Thanks for the derailment...

 

EDIT: Did Greenbaum put you up to this? lol

 

Mark

[speedengineer]

My Miata has 2 side doors, a fuel filler 'door' and a truck with hinges and a latch. Yay it's a four door!!!

 

But yeah, sedan modifier needs to go away. Tried last year. You know when some people out there are specifically searching for 4-door cars to build to gain a performance advantage, that the rule doesn't make sense.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

EDIT:Did Greenbaum put you up to this? lol

 

My Miata has 2 side doors, a fuel filler 'door' and a truck with hinges and a latch. Yay it's a four door!!!

Indeed! Same for my Integra! I want my +0.4!

[kbrew8991]

I agree with you on a forum post from 6yr ago being weak, except it's straight from the same horse's mouth that will be giving the answer today. And I am not aware of any factors that are different now than were different when these cars were new.

 

KB - feels the only cars that should get the aero break are wagon-shaped cars regardless of door count (so 3-door Civic hatch and Audi S4 5-door wagon getting same break).

[Grintch]

There is a post here from 2009 where Greg claimed this:

 

The rules call for a "4-door sedan or 5-door wagon" +0.4

The RX-8 is a 4-door coupe or 4-door sports car, depending on where it is printed. So, I would say that it does not get the 4 door sedan break.

 

 

So this thread is a bit of a moot point.

 

For what it's worth, the body style code on my Arizona title for my 2005 RX-8 is CP which stands for Coupe.

 

That being said, I think the 4 door sedan/5 door wagon handicap is stupid and should be removed entirely. I don't think a valid reasoning has ever been explained as to why it exists.

 

I remember when the Nissan Maxima was called a 4 door sports car. There are a number of current German cars that refer to 4 door cars as coupes (generally with a semi fastback roofline).

 

We need a clearer standard. I am actually in favor of the basic idea, as I consider a 2 seat Corvette to have an aero, suspension, and weight distribution advanatage over a 4 seat Camaro, which I think has similar (though maybe lesser) advanatges over a 4 door SS Sedan. So maybe we should base it on the number of seats, or potential number of passengers?

[Greg G.]

 

These are on the side of a house. They have hinges and latches. People can go in and out of them. Are they doors?

Anyone comes in my house through doors looking like that will end up with lead poisoning.

[Greg G.]

AND, the RX-8 is a COUPE, not a Sedan.

[Grintch]

AND, the RX-8 is a COUPE, not a Sedan.

According to Merriam-Webster:

 

COUPÉ - a 2-door automobile often seating only two persons; also : one with a tight-spaced rear seat.

SEDAN - a 2- or 4-door automobile seating four or more persons and usually having a permanent top.

 

So not exactly clear cut.

The text of the rule seems to suggest that the number of doors is the defining factor.

[Greg G.]

Four-door coupé

A luxury sedan with classic coupé-like proportions. The low roof design reduces back seat passenger access and headroom.[23] The designation was first applied to a low-roof model of the Rover P5 from 1962 until 1973,[24] but was revived by the 1985 Toyota Carina ED, the 1992 Infiniti J30 and finally by the first model 2005 Mercedes-Benz CLS, which stands in Mercedes hierarchy between the E and S class, and has the appearance of a classic coupé and sedan. The term was also used partly from marketing reasons. German press accepted the concept of a four-door coupé and applied it to similar models from other manufacturers such as the 2009 Jaguar XJ.[25][26][27][28] Also, other manufacturers accepted it, producing recent competing models like Volkswagen Passat CC, BMW F06 and even five-door coupé, Audi A7.[29] The organization ADAC on its website also adopted this concept.[30] In Germany the definition of the coupé was finally divided into the classic coupé and 4-door coupé. This definition and concept of four-door coupé (instead of saloon) are evident in Germany, but they are not widely known in the rest of the world.

 

Quad coupé

Quad coupé is a marketing name for cars with one or two small rear doors with no B pillar.

 

Other examples are the: 2005 Saturn Ion 4-door coupé and Mazda RX-8 four-door Coupe.

 

MAZDA DESIGNATED IN ALL OF THEIR ADVERTISEMENTS AND RELEASES THAT THE RX-8 IS A FOUR-DOOR COUPE!

I've been through this with Mazda themselves, and they seem to understand, so I'm not sure why you don't.

[Arca_ex]

Four-door coupé

A luxury sedan with classic coupé-like proportions. The low roof design reduces back seat passenger access and headroom.[23] The designation was first applied to a low-roof model of the Rover P5 from 1962 until 1973,[24] but was revived by the 1985 Toyota Carina ED, the 1992 Infiniti J30 and finally by the first model 2005 Mercedes-Benz CLS, which stands in Mercedes hierarchy between the E and S class, and has the appearance of a classic coupé and sedan. The term was also used partly from marketing reasons. German press accepted the concept of a four-door coupé and applied it to similar models from other manufacturers such as the 2009 Jaguar XJ.[25][26][27][28] Also, other manufacturers accepted it, producing recent competing models like Volkswagen Passat CC, BMW F06 and even five-door coupé, Audi A7.[29] The organization ADAC on its website also adopted this concept.[30] In Germany the definition of the coupé was finally divided into the classic coupé and 4-door coupé. This definition and concept of four-door coupé (instead of saloon) are evident in Germany, but they are not widely known in the rest of the world.

 

Quad coupé

Quad coupé is a marketing name for cars with one or two small rear doors with no B pillar.

 

Other examples are the: 2005 Saturn Ion 4-door coupé and Mazda RX-8 four-door Coupe.

 

MAZDA DESIGNATED IN ALL OF THEIR ADVERTISEMENTS AND RELEASES THAT THE RX-8 IS A FOUR-DOOR COUPE!

I've been through this with Mazda themselves, and they seem to understand, so I'm not sure why you don't.

 

 

Well you called it a sedan there in the first line and admitted it has four doors soooo...

 

why does this advantage exist again?

 

I don't think it should be a modification factor in the first place.

[Varkwso]

Kill the sedan advantage....

[Greg G.]

Kill the sedan advantage....

...Because the four-door Sedans are doing so much better than the sports cars?