Street Tire Class

[marlonco]

With all the talk about ST etc..., I would propose approaching a street tire manufacturer, and creating a class that only runs a given street tire. We would need a tire that comes in lots of sizes, and is popular. Allowable tire width would be based on vehicle weight. This class with limited traction would be a driver's class with tire management (Formula 1, and NASCAR is only about tire management). Horsepower, weight (lighter cars get skinny tires), extreme set-ups of toe-in, camber, big brakes, aero etc... (down force weight) wouldn't help the driver. The smooth fast driver with good feel for his car would win.

 

It would be a driver's class, and not a pocket book class. The sponsor would get to advertise the "fastest car on X tire", and the "only tire approved by NASA for all types of sportscars". Big money. Free tires for winners (like Hoosier), free parties, hats, t-shirts, award money, purses, specialty invitational races etc...

 

I think people would move over to the class. Lots of competition. Great mixed class racing with everyone trying to manage limited traction. The smooth fast guy with good feel for his car wins. Think Firestone 500, or Dayton Daytona 500. Pirelli is the only manufacturer doing the 1960's tire thing. Goodyear spent $250M for Indy, and it's one race. NASA with multiple divisions, regions, races could do get a good street tire sponsor.

 

It would be a neat class.

[marlonco]

Pirelli sponsors Formula 1, Indy, and Cadillac Challenge. Goodyear is the official sponsor of NASCAR.

 

Firestone used to be into racing. As an example, approach Cooper tires, and pick out one of their "performance" tires, (Cooper Cobra), and we all run that tire in a mixed racing class.

 

Does anybody else want to run in the "loose" tire class? It would be great "non-pocketbook" mixed class racing. I love chasing, or being chased by a heavy horsepower car. I love watching Miata;s pick at Camaro's, and Mustangs waiting until the tire understeer that will come late in the race.

 

The "normal" public thinks NASA is a pro-racing group that is a step-off point for the big time leagues. I was watching a car show, and they mentioned that this car had been raced in NASA, and it was a professional racing car, so we have the public perception to promote a "Firestone 500" tire.

 

Racers get discount coupons for tires. Sponsor comes in with parties, food, purses, sponsored races, t-shirts, etc... The tire buying public will be a lot more interested in a street tire they can buy than some super soft Pirelli tire that is good for 50 miles on a track.

 

Imagine a Honda Civic going up against a 800 HP pipe frame NASCAR outlaw, and it is 22 minutes into 25 minute sprint. The tires on the monster are hot ,and greasy. The Honda is still holding on.

 

Amateur racing is about to change with the invention of the camera drone. Every amateur race could be professionally filmed and edited with drones. Drones are already around the track. You can watch almost everything on the internet.

 

There is a low cost drone that follows and films a driver/rider car/motorcycle on the track. The motocross crowd is using them, and they are cheap enough for an individual to buy. They are already being used at Baja, which was a horrible spectator sport. Each drone follows a racer for a period of time.

 

NASA can promote as well as anyone else.

 

The best racing on T.V. is GT3, where Aston Martin's, Porches, Mustangs, Camaro's, Hyundai's, Nissans etc... and even a Miata's go up against each other. There's manufacturers involved. Teams.

 

There is a lot here to this idea of a street tire class. Some ego's will get bruised. I'm tired of watching bad racing with bad racing lines working only because the tires are too sticky, and holding where they shouldn't.

 

This concept is evolutionary. Marlon

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Imagine a Honda Civic going up against a 800 HP pipe frame NASCAR outlaw, and it is 22 minutes into 25 minute sprint. The tires on the monster are hot and greasy. The Honda better hope it has a really loose setup so that the front tires aren't greaseballs as well.

Fixed.

 

I like your analogy but sub in Honda S2000 and you have something there.

[Smike]

The Toyo RA1 as a street tire. Technically, DOT marked tires can be street driven.

 

Professional racing is a money losing sponsorship for the tire manufactures. They pay for the visibility. They do not directly make money from those racing events or teams. E.g. Pirelli hopes that someone who is a fan of F1 thinks of them next time they need tires.

 

Amateur club racing has no value proposition to a tire Manufacturing company. It costs millions to develop a tire and millions more to industrialize. No payback. And there are not that many spectators. So even on the highest side of 1000 people at an event (so 4000 potential tires sales), that is not even on the scale of what a market is. Tire companies took to volumes of 500,000-1,000,000 tire sales -- for a small line.

 

And based on CMC and Spec Miata racing (same tires FYI) - they would never catch each other. From experience, as soon as I could get a path around the pack of Miatas - I would walk on by and keep going.

[alwaysinboost]

i like the idea of a street tire class.

 

I don't know about bringing sponsors on, but BFG is already a NASA tire sponsor, how hard would it be to get them to offer contingency for their Rival/ Rival S tires?

[Sterling Doc]

You can already run a street tire in P.T. and use the points elsewhere.

 

With due apologies to my CMC buddies, I'd agree that it is telling when a CMC car on a primitive suspension and near street tires (the old RA-1) were significantly faster than Miatas on the same tire. Upgrade the CMC car from Conestoga spec suspension to current ST development levels, and it won't be in the same zip code.

The closest we could come is make street tires negative point in PT to make them more attractive.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

The closest we could come is make street tires negative point in PT to make them more attractive.

 

I like this! I could get -1 for size (225) and -1 for compound!

[marlonco]

Nascar Racing has Goodyear Eagle on all its tires.

 

Trans AM series is now on T.V. It's "pro-sanctioned", but full of amateurs. Some of the funniest racing ever. Try to catch the Mid-Ohio event. It's being re-broadcast on Sat. Sept. 5. This is low level racing on T.V. with visibility for sponsors.

 

At TWS, I watched a Miata pick on a fairly hot CMC. Late in the race, the CMC understeered on greasy tires at the carousel, and the patient Miata made his move.

 

I watched a Thunder Roadster challenge a 800 HP pipe framed ST1 monster chase. It was the short track at Cresson MSR. First few laps, the monster covered the short straights in half the time of the TR, but as the race went on, the gap on the straights narrowed. The brakes, and tires on the monster were hot. Eventually, it was just a matter of whether the Monster would spin on on an exit. The 1400 pound TR was charging.

 

One of my best wheel to wheel actions was a CMC against my Yamaha low powered TR. It was out of class, but acceptable, because there were so few cars in each class. At any rate, I held the CMC behind me, until his tires were hot. He made his move, but lost it on the next corner. The second race, the CMC knew he had to pass me early, and couldn't over cook his tires. He had the advantage of following me all those laps, so he knew my lines. Second race was his.

 

I would encourage everyone to think about their HPDE days, when nobody was particualrly faster in any particular type of car, because the street tires were so limited. A race tire pretending to be a "fake" DOT tire would give advantage to the low weight cars, but a real limited traction street tire puts everybody in the same field.

 

Time the cars in HPDE 3-4 on street tires to see, if I'm right. (Discount anyone with high traction tires.) Assume most driver's have similar experience.

 

I watched a McLaren go against a street Miata. The Mclaren only made advantage on the long straights. Both only went at it a few laps. The McLaren came in on hot tires, and the Miata continued to play. It might have gotten interesting, but the racer in the McLaren got nervous with his high dollar car., whose handling was worsening with each lap on its street tries.

 

Cooper Cobra's for all.

 

Marlon

[Smike]

You don't seem to understand tires or tire management. I don't normally argue with stupid; however, this is so filled with misleading information that it needs to be straightened out.

 

GY in NASCAR is a yellow heat transfer stencil that is hand applied to the tires. Which are hand-built, race track and left/right side specific tires. Again, payback is brand visibility to the most popular motorsport in the US. GY does it for the brand recognition. It is a cost center for a business.

 

Ha, TransAm is on MavTV at 2am. Hardly prime time or pro. Just because you put "pro" in front of it doesn't make it pro. Just because you're using a Pro-Grade Home Depot hand drill, that doesn't make you a professional contractor.

 

Lets do a Cost/Benefit Analysis. "Street tire required class" (aka PT, but whatever, let's do some math). If would cost the tire manufacture $10,000,000 to develop/make/stock/sell a tire line (around 50 SKUs) and they had the potential to sell 10,000 tires to competitors of this class (that's 2,500 drivers mind you - no where close to the actual tiny numbers that would be in that class) per year at $50 margins (total gain of $500,000/yr). It would take 20 years to pay back the sunk development costs.

 

We can look at this from a viewer level too. So you sponsor the TransAm race at $20,000 (which is way cheaper than actual costs...but I want to give you a fighting chance here...). 5,000 people at the event and 10,000 view at home. Of those 15,000 people, only 10% are in the 3-4 year window for needing new tires. Leaving you with 1,500 potential sales. 85% of those will go a tire dealer typically replace their tire with what is currently on the vehicle the remaining will be sold a tire that fits their needs after talking with said dealer (dealer will be moving what is most profitable for them at that time). So of that 1,500, you've lost 1,275 candidates. Leaving you with 225 potential sales. Now there are 3 major players in tires - Goodyear, Michelin, Bridgestone. Of the RMA members, Conti, Cooper, Pirelli, Yoko, Toyo make up a smaller share of the market. 225/3 = 75 potential sales to the 3 main players. We'll use the $50 margin here again = $3,750 potential. It would take you 5 years to pay off that $20,000 sponsorship.

 

(Fun fact, guess how many people remember what tire brand or type is on their vehicle when asked 6 weeks after purchasing? Damn near zero.)

 

Miata v CMC. Sounds like a crappy CMC setup or driver. Want an example of how a CMC/PTC car works through Miatas?

 

_201HteD5iE

 

I played nice to let them sort themselves out then walk on by and left them for the WHOLE race.

 

Again, sounds like a BAD driver in your TR v ST1 example.

 

You should have been black flagged for blocking and out of class car. Shame on you. Out of class racing is not acceptable, especially when you are blocking someones race. Me as Race Director = you get a serious talking to and warning. Repeat and you'd be watching the race from the bleachers.

 

Sounds like you need to see other regions HPDE 3 and 4 cars. We have some of the fastest in the GL/MW and a wide split of lap times based on ability. Oh, mostly on street tires. Your argument of that "nobody was particularity faster" is completely laughable. They're fast because they know how to drive fast.

 

Fake DOT? Where do you get off of this bus? DOT is a government regulation and tires have to pass specific DOT mandated tests to have it on the sidewall.

 

No. The "racer" in the McLaren needs to learn how to drive. That sounds like a textbook HPDE 2 driver do his best impression of drag-racer lost on a road course. Once the driver learns how to use a higher roll speed into corners that Miata will be lapped in a 20 min session.

 

Here, comparable car to your McLaren with a driver that can drive the car (Porsche 911 v Miata). How long do you see the Miata?

 

nMAmhHsYmtk

 

Kthxbye.

 

Nascar Racing has Goodyear Eagle on all its tires.

 

SCCA Trans AM series is now on T.V. It's "pro-sanctioned", but full of amateurs. Some of the funniest racing ever. Try to catch the Mid-Ohio event. It's being re-broadcast on Sat. Sept. 5. This is low level racing on T.V. with visibility for sponsors.

 

At TWS, I watched a Miata pick on a fairly hot CMC. Late in the race, the CMC understeered on greasy tires at the carousel, and the patient Miata made his move.

 

I watched a Thunder Roadster challenge a 800 HP pipe framed ST1 monster chase. It was the short track at Cresson MSR. First few laps, the monster covered the short straights in half the time of the TR, but as the race went on, the gap on the straights narrowed. The brakes, and tires on the monster were hot. Eventually, it was just a matter of whether the Monster would spin on on an exit. The 1400 pound TR was charging.

 

One of my best wheel to wheel actions was a CMC against my Yamaha low powered TR. It was out of class, but acceptable, because there were so few cars in each class. At any rate, I held the CMC behind me, until his tires were hot. He made his move, but lost it on the next corner. The second race, the CMC knew he had to pass me early, and couldn't over cook his tires. He had the advantage of following me all those laps, so he knew my lines. Second race was his.

 

I would encourage everyone to think about their HPDE days, when nobody was particualrly faster in any particular type of car, because the street tires were so limited. A race tire pretending to be a "fake" DOT tire would give advantage to the low weight cars, but a real limited traction street tire puts everybody in the same field.

 

Time the cars in HPDE 3-4 on street tires to see, if I'm right. (Discount anyone with high traction tires.) Assume most driver's have similar experience.

 

I watched a McLaren go against a street Miata. The Mclaren only made advantage on the long straights. Both only went at it a few laps. The McLaren came in on hot tires, and the Miata continued to play. It might have gotten interesting, but the racer in the McLaren got nervous with his high dollar car., whose handling was worsening with each lap on its street tries.

 

Cooper Cobra's for all.

 

Marlon

[marlonco]

A refute to our video expert.

 

1. Perelli Championship: TC Class: (running Pirelli P Zero street tires) (on Television, and well promoted)

 

John Weisburg (MX-5), Ernie Francis Jr. (MX-5) leading over John Weisburg (Mustang, and Nascar fame) in the series

 

Just watched Perilli race at Miller Motorsports Park which has a 2/3 mile straightaway, and should give all advantage to the Mustang, but on lap 23 of the 25 lap race, the Mustang had used up its street P Zero tires, and couldn't respond to the charging Miata's.

 

A Porsche Caymen is winning the series, but he blew his motor. The championship leader is going to be challenged by the Miata's. I thought Miata's couldn't race Porsche's.

 

This is amateur racing promoted on T.V. by a tire sponsor advertising a street tire.

 

Actually, this is pretty good racing to watch. The turbo front wheel drive VW's will pull a lot of cars on the straights until the FWD cooks the tires. The Mustangs have to hang back to save tires. The Miata's do their momentum thing. The Honda's hang in there. And the Mini's create moving traffic jams. (It beats watching the Brits run into each other, and cut corners, or the Aussie V-8's with over cambered cars eating their horsepower. The gear whine is louder than their open exhausts.)

 

Just watched the Formula 1 qualifying at Suzuka. Big Perrelli sign off the pits promoting the P Zero tire. This bascially refutes everything our video expert says.

 

2. A DOT stamp on a tire means the tire road tax has been collected by the DOT. This is the primary difference (taxation) between a DOT, or non-DOT tires. Plus everyone knows what I meant by a fake DOT tire. (fast wearing, high grip, low mileage, expensive tire.)

 

3. Discount Tires, and NTB have a big websites to review tires, and make tire choices. Obviously, the tire buying public is interested in buying tires, and it is not merely a matter of accepting the tire being promoted by the dealership, or there wouldn't be big websites with multiple links promoting tires. (I run Perilli's on my street cars, and will choose this brand of tire over BFG's, Michelin's, or Continentals consistently. I wonder why.)

(Oh, I run Goodyear, BFG's, or Maxxi's on my trucks. I don't follow BAJA racing, but know these are the tires those guys use to race, and "they have to be good".)

(I run Cooper's on my tow vehicles. Truck stop parking lots advertise the tires, and nobody races tow trucks, or semi's, but if they did, well I would probably use the brand raced. "They have to be good.")

 

4. There are no development costs. The tire manufacturer will pick an existing tire with multiple sizes that works for multiple cars., and we will run that tire.

 

5. Hoosier, a NASA sponsor, will give away two tires for a first place, and one tire for a second place in each race in a NASA event. The winning entrant has to have previously registered, run Hoosier tires, and have Hoosier stickers on their car. That's potentially 6 tires, or approximately $1200 per weekend event per class.

Hoosier does this just to promote its racing tire to RACERS ONLY.

BTW: I am running a free set of Hoosier slicks currently. Our series leader wins a set of tires almost every weekend, and given the slicks last several races, he gives them away to the slowest guys in class.

 

6. $20k to sponsor a race? Let's shoot for $1500 for a regional race. $500 for first. $300 for second. $200 for third. $500 bucks for parties, and freebies for the mixed class racers running the chosen street tire.

Hoosier is willing to do this, or more already with free tires.

The tire sponsors gets to sell the class tire to the racers. Gets advertise the tires as approved and chosen by NASA for all types of cars. Can promote the class winners as the fastest guys on X-type tire etc...

 

7. Nest we move to a brake pad manufactururer. Then a battery sponsor. The tire class runs the same brake pads, and the same batteries, and we lower the cost of amateur racing for "our class". (Oh, somebody is already doing this, too. What does an Optima battery have to do with a fast brake zone?)

 

8. Black flag for out of class racing. If you are the only car in your class, and you know he is the only car in his class, why not race wheel to wheel. You both get first anyway. It is all about knowing who to race, and who to let pass. This is the concept of mixed class racing. I was the only TR. He was the only Mustang, and we fought with the only Austin, and the only Honda. (Group 4, but it was fun, and would have been boring without some out of class challenging. Nobody complained as long as everyone played nice.)

 

9. I would like to get to more tracks, and get more exposure. This is the only correct statement made. Maybe, if the cost of amateur racing was lower.

 

10. Formula one isn't on out prime time either. We record it.

 

Marlon

[Sterling Doc]

I am impressed by your passion for this, but as you can see, it's not getting much traction (pardon the pun).

 

If you want to court a tire manufacturer, it would behoove your to learn to spell their name.

 

The pro series have balance of performance adjustments precisely because the car are *not* equal to start. These are not subtle adjustments. Without it, the races would be lopsided, street tire, or not.

[Mike W.]

A refute to our video expert.

 

1. Perelli Championship: TC Class: (running Pirelli P Zero street tires) (on Television, and well promoted)

None of the Pirelli World Challenge Cars run on street tires. They are on race tires and not cheap ones either.

http://www.world-challenge.com/images/forms/2015-Pirelli-World-Challenge-Tire-Price-List.pdf

[ILIKETODRIVE]

http://www.world-challenge.com/pirelli-world-challenge-car-facts.html

 

"Tires are Pirelli P Zero Racing Slicks, in widths ranging from 245mm to 315mm."

[Alan_Wolfe]

 

The pro series have balance of performance adjustments precisely because the car are *not* equal to start. These are not subtle adjustments. Without it, the races would be lopsided, street tire, or not.

 

I guess that means the GTS rule makers are smarter than the pro series rule makers, huh?

[Smike]

Ok, this is still down the road to stupid.

 

1 - See others replies. They run full slicks.

2 - Road tax? This is absolute bullshit. Look, I'm in the tire industry. One of my many jobs was in DOT testing. You need to check into reality.

3 - Public buys tires (and there are many routes here, internet is one that is growing...A LOT still drive to a tire store or car dealer). They do not go to amateur club events.

4 - A street tire will not last with racing abuse. Tires are specific for their purposes. And what if they don't have every fitment in that line? We (tire companies) do not make every fitment for every car. We pick what we want to target. And sorry, Miata and Corvette don't go together in our eyes. So they wont have a common tire line in something with extreme performance.

5 - Hoosier is a racing slick. Their whole business is amateur racing.

6 - NASA is sponsored by Toyo already. Without reading the contract...betting that Toyo wouldn't look kindly to NASA presented by Toyo, Conti, Michelin, Goodyear...

7 - sigh, dumb

8 - I would ban your ass. Period.

9 - Lower cost? Its sub $500 for a weekend. How much lower do you want? Free?

10 - Its not popular in the US. And its on channels that many do not have. Oh, no recorder either? Enough' said.

 

A refute to our video expert.

 

1. Perelli Championship: TC Class: (running Pirelli P Zero street tires) (on Television, and well promoted)

 

John Weisburg (MX-5), Ernie Francis Jr. (MX-5) leading over John Weisburg (Mustang, and Nascar fame) in the series

 

Just watched Perilli race at Miller Motorsports Park which has a 2/3 mile straightaway, and should give all advantage to the Mustang, but on lap 23 of the 25 lap race, the Mustang had used up its street P Zero tires, and couldn't respond to the charging Miata's.

 

A Porsche Caymen is winning the series, but he blew his motor. The championship leader is going to be challenged by the Miata's. I thought Miata's couldn't race Porsche's.

 

This is amateur racing promoted on T.V. by a tire sponsor advertising a street tire.

 

Actually, this is pretty good racing to watch. The turbo front wheel drive VW's will pull a lot of cars on the straights until the FWD cooks the tires. The Mustangs have to hang back to save tires. The Miata's do their momentum thing. The Honda's hang in there. And the Mini's create moving traffic jams. (It beats watching the Brits run into each other, and cut corners, or the Aussie V-8's with over cambered cars eating their horsepower. The gear whine is louder than their open exhausts.)

 

Just watched the Formula 1 qualifying at Suzuka. Big Perrelli sign off the pits promoting the P Zero tire. This bascially refutes everything our video expert says.

 

2. A DOT stamp on a tire means the tire road tax has been collected by the DOT. This is the primary difference (taxation) between a DOT, or non-DOT tires. Plus everyone knows what I meant by a fake DOT tire. (fast wearing, high grip, low mileage, expensive tire.)

 

3. Discount Tires, and NTB have a big websites to review tires, and make tire choices. Obviously, the tire buying public is interested in buying tires, and it is not merely a matter of accepting the tire being promoted by the dealership, or there wouldn't be big websites with multiple links promoting tires. (I run Perilli's on my street cars, and will choose this brand of tire over BFG's, Michelin's, or Continentals consistently. I wonder why.)

(Oh, I run Goodyear, BFG's, or Maxxi's on my trucks. I don't follow BAJA racing, but know these are the tires those guys use to race, and "they have to be good".)

(I run Cooper's on my tow vehicles. Truck stop parking lots advertise the tires, and nobody races tow trucks, or semi's, but if they did, well I would probably use the brand raced. "They have to be good.")

 

4. There are no development costs. The tire manufacturer will pick an existing tire with multiple sizes that works for multiple cars., and we will run that tire.

 

5. Hoosier, a NASA sponsor, will give away two tires for a first place, and one tire for a second place in each race in a NASA event. The winning entrant has to have previously registered, run Hoosier tires, and have Hoosier stickers on their car. That's potentially 6 tires, or approximately $1200 per weekend event per class.

Hoosier does this just to promote its racing tire to RACERS ONLY.

BTW: I am running a free set of Hoosier slicks currently. Our series leader wins a set of tires almost every weekend, and given the slicks last several races, he gives them away to the slowest guys in class.

 

6. $20k to sponsor a race? Let's shoot for $1500 for a regional race. $500 for first. $300 for second. $200 for third. $500 bucks for parties, and freebies for the mixed class racers running the chosen street tire.

Hoosier is willing to do this, or more already with free tires.

The tire sponsors gets to sell the class tire to the racers. Gets advertise the tires as approved and chosen by NASA for all types of cars. Can promote the class winners as the fastest guys on X-type tire etc...

 

7. Nest we move to a brake pad manufactururer. Then a battery sponsor. The tire class runs the same brake pads, and the same batteries, and we lower the cost of amateur racing for "our class". (Oh, somebody is already doing this, too. What does an Optima battery have to do with a fast brake zone?)

 

8. Black flag for out of class racing. If you are the only car in your class, and you know he is the only car in his class, why not race wheel to wheel. You both get first anyway. It is all about knowing who to race, and who to let pass. This is the concept of mixed class racing. I was the only TR. He was the only Mustang, and we fought with the only Austin, and the only Honda. (Group 4 with SCCA, but it was fun, and would have been boring without some out of class challenging. Nobody complained as long as everyone played nice.)

 

9. I would like to get to more tracks, and get more exposure. This is the only correct statement made. Maybe, if the cost of amateur racing was lower.

 

10. Formula one isn't on out prime time either. We record it.

 

Marlon

[alwaysinboost]

the idea is a sound one, but his execution was all wrong.

 

Can't speak for the "racers", but I personally would love to see a street tire based TT class. Similar to the time attack format, which classes cars based on tire choice, width and drive-train configuration, not a points based modification.

 

for many people going though the ranks of NASA, myself included, we stared in HPDE and modded our cars for our own person reasons. some mods helped performance and some didn't. After doing laps for however long, eventually you want to compete. the problem is you find out all those mods you did to the car back in your HPDE days land you in a TT class that is populated by full blow race cars. Now you're discouraged because you don't want to put your "street" car up against race cars. THat is where the street tire game comes into play...

 

there is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to grip level of street tires and putting the power down. That evens the playing field quite a bit with regard to other modifications done to the car. Unlike slicks/rcomps that can generate tons grip and usually will benefit from more power, you can overwhelm a street tire with too much power or too much grip. making is a delicate balance between the car and the driver.

 

The other advantage to a street tire class is that it will open up TT to a lot more people than previously. I am a huge fan of TT, but lets be honest, TT is somewhat of a bastard in NASA. it isn't well subscribed compared to other racing classes and from what I have seen there is a lot of confusion about mods, classing and just the program in general. Yet, if you look at the requirements from a driver and car perspective and the costs involved, its by FAR the easiest/cheapest way for someone to "compete" with their street car. Also, for those who don't want jump straight from HPDE to racing its a nice middle ground to hone your skills before going after the big dogs in w2w series.

[hispanicpanic]

Isn't hankook rs-3 offered in a bunch of different sizes? They tend to last really well when cooked over 30 minutes. Evo X guys love them as X's are 3500 lbs and each front wheel carries approx 1,050 lbs. Understeer city.