peter*g Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I remember that in the mid 90's this slightly popular series BTCC had FWD vs. RWD and the RWD cars were required to run more weight. There's an important data point you're leaving out here -- BTCC and WCTC weren't just making a blanket decision about power-to-weight ratio with changes like that, but rather were going for (and are going for in the case of most modern series) a true "balance of performance" approach. This is intended not to just address simple driveline configuration differences, but to keep cars as close together as possible and not to let any one manufacturer or team dominate. That is _not_ what GTS has been all about. Otherwise we'd also have things line weight balance, engine power for each chassis, wing heights, etc. all restricted on a model-by-model basis. Rather than talk in hypotheticals, show the data. From what little I can find, the FWD cars who have entered the series have been right on the pace with the RWD cars in their classes. Without evidence demonstrating that FWD cars are being destroyed by their RWD or AWD counterparts, I'm not sure why would make any sort of a change. If the goal is simply to create an incentive to try to attract hordes of MINIs, GTIs, etc., to the series, I'd ask to see where anyone sees that huge volume of FWD German cars running in HPDE, other race series', etc., that are ready to be drawn into GTS. Near as I can see (from feeder series' like BMW CCA driving schools, NASA HPDE, Audi Club, etc.) it's not like there's more than a handful of those cars being run by serious track day guys that are just waiting for a competitive class to race in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_Wolfe Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Rather than talk in hypotheticals, show the data. From what little I can find, the FWD cars who have entered the series have been right on the pace with the RWD cars in their classes. Without evidence demonstrating that FWD cars are being destroyed by their RWD or AWD counterparts, I'm not sure why would make any sort of a change. This data is of little value because it does not separate the driver performance from the car performance. Don't punish the car just because the drivers are better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Rather than talk in hypotheticals, show the data. From what little I can find, the FWD cars who have entered the series have been right on the pace with the RWD cars in their classes. Without evidence demonstrating that FWD cars are being destroyed by their RWD or AWD counterparts, I'm not sure why would make any sort of a change. This data is of little value because it does not separate the driver performance from the car performance. Don't punish the car just because the drivers are better. This. Stick your average RWD TTE driver in my FWD TTE car and I garunteeee they wouldn't be able to duplicate my track records. Stick a hot shoe or pro in my car and I'm sure they could (and even surpass). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flink Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 We have a MINI that raced in GTS1 at the Western Championships. It finished in P4, with lap times within a few tenths off the P2 finisher I guess the absolute power level needs to be taken into account. GTS1 cars don't exactly suffer from mad wheelspin, so FWD isn't much of a disadvantage. But in GTS5 it would be smokey-understeer in every turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter*g Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I guess the absolute power level needs to be taken into account. GTS1 cars don't exactly suffer from mad wheelspin, so FWD isn't much of a disadvantage. But in GTS5 it would be smokey-understeer in every turn. Good thing the manufacturers typically don't make anything FWD with that kind of power to weight ratio... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7VO-VOM Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Wasn't a Mini on the podium in GTS1 for ECC? What's next? An adjustment for Audis since the engine is too far forward? An adjustment for 911-type Porsches because the engine is too far rearward? An adjustment for sedans? An adjustment for cars without ABS? This isn't ST/PT. Keep it simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John S. Posted November 5, 2015 Members Share Posted November 5, 2015 Against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_Wolfe Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Wasn't a Mini on the podium in GTS1 for ECC? What's next? An adjustment for Audis since the engine is too far forward? An adjustment for 911-type Porsches because the engine is too far rearward? An adjustment for sedans? An adjustment for cars without ABS? This isn't ST/PT. Keep it simple. Nah, It will probably be something really stupid like penalizing sequential gearboxes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Rather than talk in hypotheticals, show the data. From what little I can find, the FWD cars who have entered the series have been right on the pace with the RWD cars in their classes. Without evidence demonstrating that FWD cars are being destroyed by their RWD or AWD counterparts, I'm not sure why would make any sort of a change. This data is of little value because it does not separate the driver performance from the car performance. Don't punish the car just because the drivers are better. and also, comparing just a single lap may not predict true race performance, esp if a particular car is hard on the tires at one end and may burn them down so to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_Wolfe Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 So, still no valid evidence against this proposal. And the couple of posts from people who have competed in both RWD and FWD platforms say that FWD deserves an adjustment. Let's get this done, cause it is the right thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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