New guy trying to figure out what class I fit into...

[Steve91T]

Hey guys. So here's my quick story. I've been doing HPDE's on and off since I was about 18, so about 16 years now. I started out in a 1991 MR2 Turbo and then switched to a 97 SS Camaro with about 380 rwhp, full weight with suspension and brake upgrades along with track tires. VIR is my home track followed by CMP in SC. I've also been to Summit Point once. I have been comfortable running the advanced groups for years.

 

I actually found myself getting bored with HPDE's unless I found somebody chance or try to stay in front of. A few years ago I decided to turn the car into a CMC car. (Camaro Mustang Challenge)

 

Fast forward a couple of years and as I was nearly done, I changed my mind. The series isn't doing as well as I'd like and I missed driving the car on weekends more than I thought. So I decided to make the car a street legal track car.

 

Now to my question. I think TT will give me the best of both worlds. Competition on the track and a street legal car. That being said, I've been reading the rules and it's a bit confusing.

 

The car is a 97 SS with a 98 SS front end (bumper/fenders/hood), weight reduction, suspension and brake upgrades, and a NASCAR style lexan rear spoiler. Right now I have a bone stock LT1 but I am planning to swap in a cammed LS1 in the near future. I think I'm going to run the LT1 for a bit to shake the car out while saving for the engine. Am I right in thinking that I'm probably going to fit into TT3 once I get the LS1? What about with the LT1 which will only have about 260 RWHP?

 

Any guidance will be greatly appreciated.

 

BTW, safety includes a bolt in 4 pt roll bar, a Butler full containment seat, 6 pt harness, quick release steering wheel and airbags removed. Someday I'm going to have a weld in 4 or 6 pt roll bar.

[hufflepuff]

if you engine swap, you'll probably have to follow the dyno reclass procedures in the TT rules.

[Steve91T]

if you engine swap, you'll probably have to follow the dyno reclass procedures in the TT rules.

 

 

Ok let me ask this then. The difference between the 97 and 98 4th gens is only the engine. If I basically make my car basically a 98, does that still apply? It's not like I'm putting an LS1 into an E36 M3.

 

The reason I'm trying to figure this out is I'm trying to figure out what rules I fall under so I can finish my build acordenly.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Ok let me ask this then. The difference between the 97 and 98 4th gens is only the engine. If I basically make my car basically a 98, does that still apply? It's not like I'm putting an LS1 into an E36 M3.

Not how the swap rule works.

 

For instance: I have a 1994 Acura Integra that came with a B18B1. I have a Japanese B18B engine in it. The only difference is the block designation. However; swap. Therefore, I had to do a dyno reclass.

 

You could take your 97, exchange every body panel/component/etc to be a 98, swap the engine/trans/etc to be a 98, etc...however you still fall under dyno reclass rules. Why? Your VIN still says it's a 97 that came with a LT1, not a 98 that came with an LS1.

[kbrew8991]

Nobody checks VINs vs what year-model you claim to be running. They do check parts vs what should be there.

 

JDM block that has some improvements over the crap over here =/= USDM block, so that's a swap.

1997 USDM engine vs 1998 USDM engine that's the same parts =/= swap. Are we checking engine serial numbers cross-referenced with the mfg to make sure the year matches the VIN on the car? No...

 

Or just start running TT3 now and it won't matter as much

 

I don't know my Camaros very well so what are the differences in the '97 and '98s? Is that when they went from the earlier style 94-95ish front end with the recessed 4 headlights to the more smooth 2000-2003ish front end with the smooth one piece headlights? What other differences are there in those two year models?

 

I'd be tempted to claim it as a 1998, take points for any 1997 parts left behind that don't meet BTM definitions, but I'm not 100% on what the car differences are and would want to know that first....

[ILIKETODRIVE]

JDM block that has some improvements over the crap over here =/= USDM block, so that's a swap.

The JDM B18B is identical compression/cams/manifolds/etc to the USDM B18B1. (The B18A/B are non-VTEC; The B18C is VTEC) However, it's not the original engine intended for that vehicle.

 

Swap, per Greg G.

 

Are we checking engine serial numbers cross-referenced with the mfg to make sure the year matches the VIN on the car? No...

We do in AZ.

 

Someone locally tried to take a base Integra, swap some suspension components, swap in a B18C engine, etc, and then submitted for a reclass based on a Type-R so that they wouldn't have to take the points for the sway bars, only +1 for a clutch-type LSD instead of +3, etc. That's a total no fly in my book. And it got shot down real quick.

[Dave Schotz]

I believe what you'll need to do, is send an email to Greg. Update/Backdate requires approval for changing the items. If you've updated your car to everything a '98 has that a '97 does not, I would view that as fine.

 

So, in your case, at a minimum you are looking at the front clip, rear taillights (maybe they're free?), Motor & Trans, also front brakes are different but you may be taking points for those so that wouldn't matter.

 

The only other reason to take points for an 'engine swap' is if you put an engine in the car that it isn't classed with, or didn't come with, for instance if you put an LS3, or LS6 in the car, those are not classed as a Camaro Z28, it'd have to be an LS1.

 

Best Regards,

Dave

[Sterling Doc]

If he is going to run in TT3, it's all power to weight anyway. He could put in a 3 rotor diesel, so long as he meets the power to weight.

 

Depending on what your Camaro weighs, a cam in an LS1 could put it into ST2 if not restricted. A stock LS1 would likely be good for ST3. The LT1 is going to be a little underpowered, but I'd still run it in TT3 so you don't have to worry about the update/backdate stuff. The LS motor is going to weigh enough less that dialing in the car with the LT motor may not be very useful.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Oh yeah...just go TT3 and skip all this shit

OR prep the car for (coming soon) TT4 and run an underpowered TT3 car in 2016...

[Steve91T]

Hey guys. Thanks so much for the help so far.

 

I'll tell you more about the car.

 

Like I said it's a 97. That's the 93-97 body style. I have now completely converted the body to the rounder 98-02 body. The hood is some sort of aftermarket fiberglass SS hood in case that matters. It looks stock though.

 

Here's everything that's been upgraded.

C5 corvette front brakes

Front sway bar

Front coil overs

Stiffer rear pigtail springs

Torque arm

NASCAR style lexan rear spoiler

 

Here's what's been deleted.

AC

ABS

Airbags

Radio and speakers

Carpet and insulation

Any unused interior brackets

 

Any slight differences between the older and newer style Camaro has either been upgraded or deleted. I really don't want to try to lie and say it's a 98 because I really suck at lying. Ask my wife. I'd rather be honest from the start.

 

I need to find someone who has a set of scales to put the car on. I'm guessing 3300-3400 lbs with me in it.

 

I'm just going to run the junkyard LT1 for a bit while I save up for the LS1. I know it's 80lbs heavier but it'll still get me close enough on the set up.

 

The way I understand TT3. If I weigh 3400 lbs and make 350 rwhp with a cammed LS1, my ratio would be 9.7. Then there is a .7 deduction for the spoiler which puts me right at 9.0, the limit for TT3. Correct?

 

The other classes really confuse me.

 

I'm painting it this month.

 

[Sterling Doc]

10.0 base

9.8 for 3,400 lbs weight

9.4 if you take the credit for running only OEM aero/body lines.

This is assuming you run over 275 DOT's. Other types, and sizes of tires would vary.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Guest

[Steve91T]

10.0 base

9.8 for 3,400 lbs weight

9.4 if you take the credit for running only OEM aero/body lines.

This is assuming you run up to 275 DOT's. Other types, and sizes of tires would vary.

 

The SS's had 275's, which is what I'm running.

 

Can you elaborate a little? How'd you come up with that?

[ILIKETODRIVE]

The SS's had 275's, which is what I'm running.

Can you elaborate a little? How'd you come up with that?

What the car originally rolled out of the factory with is irrelevant. What you bring to the track matters.

10.0 base

Speaks for itself: Where everyone starts in TT3. Assuming 3400lbs: 340whp = 10.0

9.8 for 3,400 lbs weight

Since you will be running at (likely) this high of a weight you get a .2 credit (+0.2) to what your maximum allowable PTW is.

3400/346=9.83

9.4 if you take the credit for running only OEM aero/body lines.

TT3 Only Production Vehicle Aerodynamics (does not apply to TTU, TT1, or TT2 vehicles)

Production vehicles that maintain their unmodified OEM body lines and do not have non-OEM aerodynamic aides or modifications may assess the Modification Factor for “OEM Aero” in calculating the “Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio” (7.4).

The following are permitted allowances for vehicles taking the Modification Factor assessment for “OEM Aero”:

1.) Flat undertray/belly pan forward of the centerline of the front axle.

2.) Removal of a convertible soft top/frame and/or adding a hardtop to a convertible provided that the hardtop uses a sealed rear window and is either OEM, an OEM option, or the same shape and size of an OEM/OEM option top.

3.) Lexan front, rear, and rear side windows without uncovered holes.

4.) Front wing window/frame removal and replacement with Lexan.

5.) Hood replacement/modification for venting and/or weight reduction (“aero” hood pins are permitted).

6.) Removal/cutting/drilling of the fascia for engine cooling, air intake, and brake ducting purposes.

7.) Removal of rain gutters/drip edges, windshield wipers, and mirrors.

8.) Flared and/or rolled fenders.

9.) NACA ducts, air ducts, or air hoses placed in a side window frame solely for the purpose of driver cooling.

10.) Headlamp, headlight covers, and fog lights may all be removed. The holes may be left open, used for brake ducts, or must be covered with material that replicates the shape of the OEM light/cover, leaving the shape of the OEM fascia intact.

 

If so: You get a .4 credit (+0.4).

3400/361=9.42

This is assuming you run up to 275 DOT's. Other types, and sizes of tires would vary.

Size 275 to 250 (DOT approved) = +0.3

 

3400/373=9.12

 

(Please correct me if I'm mistaken anywhere in here)

Edited December 7, 2015 by Guest

[Steve91T]

Oh I didn't realize we were talking about another class.

 

So what really is the difference between ST3 and TT3? Just cars that are a little more matched?

 

Am I correct in thinking that it sounds like somewhere around 350 rwhp is my goal? I'm going to get the car on a set of scales before I do anything just to see where I am. Obviously I'll subtract 80 lbs for the LS1.

 

I'll try to find a list of who is signed up for what classes in my area, maybe that'll help me decide. I've heard vettes like TT3. Same power to weight ratio or not, they'll kick my ass.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Oh I didn't realize we were talking about another class.

 

So what really is the difference between ST3 and TT3? Just cars that are a little more matched?

Typo by me. ST3 and TT3 are basically identical. ST3 is the wheel-to-wheel racing version of TT3. Edited above post.

[427R]

Guess I'm calculating this all wrong?

 

If car weighs 3400 and rwhp is 350 (3400/350) that's 9.71. Keep OEM aero that's + 0.4 = 10.11. Run 275 tires that's +0.3 = 10.41. Comp Wt. is 3400 = +0.2 = 10.61. Less than 10:1 puts him in TT2. I'm adding to the base, am I supposed to be subtracting?

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Guess I'm calculating this all wrong?

Yup. It's phonetically misleading. Think of + being better for your PTW and - being worse.

[Steve91T]

Oh I did the same thing. So if I replace the stock rear spoiler (which does nothing) and replace it with the NASCAR style (which should do something), that's -.7, correct? So that's 9.82? What happens to the +.4 for oem aero?

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Oh I did the same thing. So if I replace the stock rear spoiler (which does nothing) and replace it with the NASCAR style (which should do something), that's -.7, correct? So that's 9.82? What happens to the +.4 for oem aero?

Not exactly. Since you would not have OEM aero but instead have a NASCAR style wing you would lose the ability to claim the .4 for OEM aero.

 

You maximum allowable PTW would be 9.5 (10.0; .2 adjustment for weight; .3 adjustment for 275 tires) which means 3400lbs/357whp.

[427R]

Guess I'm calculating this all wrong?

Yup. It's phonetically misleading. Think of + being better for your PTW and - being worse.

Hmm, see if this makes any sense.

 

Using the 2015 class calculator for TT3. My scenario.

comp Wt. = 3760 > Wt. Factor is +0.5

whp = 419 > Raw Wt/Hp = 8.974

8.974 + 0.5 = 9.474 = Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio. Per the 2015 calculator, this puts me in TT3, minimum ratio was 9.00

 

Add +0.3 for tires (275) I'm at 9.774 Adj.Wt/HP Ratio.

 

Now for the 2016 Rules, but using the 2015 calculator, I get +0.4 for OEM Aero.

9.774 +0.4 = 10.174

 

I just squeak in to TT3. Might even be closer since I've taken more weight off car recently.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

comp Wt. = 3760

Wt. Factor is +0.5

whp = 419

Raw Wt/Hp = 8.974

8.974 + 0.5 = 9.474 = Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio.

Per the 2015 calculator, this puts me in TT3, minimum ratio was 9.00

Add +0.3 for tires (275) I'm at 9.774 Adj.Wt/HP Ratio

Now for the 2016 Rules, but using the 2015 calculator, I get +0.4 for OEM Aero.

9.774 +0.4 = 10.174

I just squeak into TT3. Might even be closer since I've taken more weight off car recently.

Exact-o-mund-o. ( As far as I can tell )

[427R]

Thanks, was afraid I'd be looking at TT2 and the car is not even close to being a TT2 car. Will have to watch the cars weight, may need some ballast at some point in time....as the driver sheds some ballast.

[427R]

Things turned out better than I expected and I now understand the Avg HP Rule better. Car got weighed and dyno'd last week, peak HP is 413 @ 6500 rpm with Avg HP of 374 using HP ranges at 5000, 5500, 6000 & 6500 rpm's. Car weighed in at 3673 as competition weight (w/full tank of gas). Based on Avg HP, my competition weight could go as low as 3420. Not sure where I can find 200 more lbs to take off. I'm firmly meeting TT3 requirements vs. just squeaking in.

[Steve91T]

The average hp will really help me. So using 9.5, my average hp just needs to be 357 rwhp, right?

 

3400/357 avg?

 

If I run the stock aero (no nascar spoiler) my new ratio is 9.1? So 373 average rwhp? Am I doing that correctly?

[427R]

The average hp will really help me. So using 9.5, my average hp just needs to be 357 rwhp, right?

 

3400/357 avg?

 

If I run the stock aero (no nascar spoiler) my new ratio is 9.1? So 373 average rwhp? Am I doing that correctly?

 

Yes, 3400 * 357 = 9.524 with Weight Factor of 0.200

 

For TT1,2,3, OEM Aero is +0.4, so you'd be at 9.924