ST 5/6 (PT 5/6) Rules Proposal Thread--give your input here

[Greg G.]

245 R7 will fit the template on a 9" wheel.

[cadmad]

Question,

How is OEM track width determined? I have an identical street car that I used to measure from.

[cadmad]

what tires can be used in rain?

[Matt@NCM]

Tough decisions made wisely by the NASA team!

 

 

Can I be the guy that starts lobbying for a long term rules freeze?

[hufflepuff]

Tough decisions made wisely by the NASA team!

 

 

Can I be the guy that starts lobbying for a long term rules freeze?

 

Are you a BMW on Hoosiers?

 

I am overall a big fan of the rules layout. But there are some modifiers, tire compound especially, that are wildly off from the real world.

[docwyte]

I am a BMW but I'm not a fan of the new rule set. If you'd prepped your car close to the extent of the TTC rules, you're getting pushed into TT4 with these new rules.

 

The lose of the tire size modifier plus losing the ability to take points for the splitter and brake calipers vs hits to the HP:Lb ratio aren't good for me at all.

 

Oh well. I'll only be ~50rwhp low for TT4. If I had the cash it'd be time for an S54 swap...

[hufflepuff]

I am a BMW but I'm not a fan of the new rule set. If you'd prepped your car close to the extent of the TTC rules, you're getting pushed into TT4 with these new rules.

 

The lose of the tire size modifier plus losing the ability to take points for the splitter and brake calipers vs hits to the HP:Lb ratio aren't good for me at all.

 

Oh well. I'll only be ~50rwhp low for TT4. If I had the cash it'd be time for an S54 swap...

 

Very true. TT5 was designed to slow down TTC cars so that TTC & TTD could be merged. All the fast TTC guys will need to detune, but the reward is a bigger class size with simpler rules.

 

I'm taking a brake caliper hit, no complaints there.

 

Anyone else using aero will be subject to the same modifier you are.

[Matt@NCM]

Tough decisions made wisely by the NASA team!

 

 

Can I be the guy that starts lobbying for a long term rules freeze?

 

Are you a BMW on Hoosiers?

 

I am overall a big fan of the rules layout. But there are some modifiers, tire compound especially, that are wildly off from the real world.

 

Lol. No.

This rule set is gonna get awfully close to parity. Id rather leave it alone and have a few years to flesh out all the minor details than constatly tweaking.

 

People take for granted how a consistent rules package is conducive for growth.

 

No rulebook is perfect. "The grass is always greener" addage couldnt apply more accurately

[Charlienofun]

Non-OEM Transmission swaps are only permitted when used in conjunction

with an engine swap. Note--The transmission must come from the same donor

vehicle model as the engine, and that donor vehicle must be a model eligible to

compete in ST5 (section 4). Otherwise, the transmission must be OEM.

 

Whats the intent of this rule? I have a trans going into in my RX8 that fits within the stock tunnel. Its mated to a Honda engine but they are not from the same donor vehicle (I have a trans adapter plate - the motor and trans are both OEM Honda parts).

 

This car really won't have the power to compete in ST4 as I've envisioned it now - and I already have most of the components to take to completion. I think I can engineer my way around the restrictions to subframe / crossmember but that's irrelevant if I'm blocked on motor/trans not being from the same donor.

[f1honda]

E36 sedan is looking really good right now. +.2 for 4 door and .7 for non A arm. That's a .9 advantage over other chassis right off the bat.

[dizzy8085]

E36 sedan is looking really good right now. +.2 for 4 door and .7 for non A arm. That's a .9 advantage over other chassis right off the bat.

 

Yeah, e36 sedan is definitely the car to have for this class. NC mx5 isn't that terrible either, because it has really good stock brakes and doesn't really need any camber mods.

[hufflepuff]

My nc Miata daily driver has a fairly modest range of front camber adjustment and would need offset upper control arm bushings to get the desired camber, especially at reasonable ride height. It would also be way off the power to weight limit (I'd be lucky to have 160 WHP at 2600#)

[dizzy8085]

My nc Miata daily driver has a fairly modest range of front camber adjustment and would need offset upper control arm bushings to get the desired camber, especially at reasonable ride height. It would also be way off the power to weight limit (I'd be lucky to have 160 WHP at 2600#)

 

If it's low, then you can get a decent amount of camber out of the front. Btw. Mazda motorsports has an offset control arm bushing that IMO is better than the control arm bushing.

 

Even then, it's only a .02 hit.

 

And yeah, you would have to do aero or some more power. e85 with full exhaust, or maybe a 2.5 swap.

 

You're always going to have to "prep" something if you want it to run at the front.

[Greg G.]

Non-OEM Transmission swaps are only permitted when used in conjunction

with an engine swap. Note--The transmission must come from the same donor

vehicle model as the engine, and that donor vehicle must be a model eligible to

compete in ST5 (section 4). Otherwise, the transmission must be OEM.

 

Whats the intent of this rule? I have a trans going into in my RX8 that fits within the stock tunnel. Its mated to a Honda engine but they are not from the same donor vehicle (I have a trans adapter plate - the motor and trans are both OEM Honda parts).

 

This car really won't have the power to compete in ST4 as I've envisioned it now - and I already have most of the components to take to completion. I think I can engineer my way around the restrictions to subframe / crossmember but that's irrelevant if I'm blocked on motor/trans not being from the same donor.

The same intent as to not allow transmission swaps for cars without engine swaps....lower level class with some cost containment restrictions, and to prevent the possible need for competitors to have aftermarket transmissions in order to be competitive.

 

Now, if the transmission you have chosen is simply because it fits, and perhaps does not even perform as good as the one that came from the engine donor vehicle, then that would possibly be something that you would take offline by e-mail with the National Director.

[jbjones]

Greg- Does an 86 have to take the -.5 hit for "watts link, panhard bar or torque arm" if we have upgraded traction arms? Like this: http://www.splparts.com/products/spl-titanium-rear-traction-arms-fr-s-brz.html

 

Obviously have to take the metallic bushing deduction.

 

Also, when a lot of the rules are supposed to keep costs down, why is there a deduct for big brake kits?

[Greg G.]

Greg- Does an 86 have to take the -.5 hit for "watts link, panhard bar or torque arm" if we have upgraded traction arms? Like this: http://www.splparts.com/products/spl-titanium-rear-traction-arms-fr-s-brz.html

 

Obviously have to take the metallic bushing deduction.

 

Also, when a lot of the rules are supposed to keep costs down, why is there a deduct for big brake kits?

Those appear to me to be parts that would fall under both control arm and spherical assessments--big hit, better be worth it (-0.7 total).

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the brakes--similar to the prior PT assessments, but now competitors can use the cheaper brakes from a next generation version of the same model (update/backdate) that may negate the need to get expensive aftermarket brakes (examples include the Miata, and maybe the BMW 3 series upgrading to M3 trim, etc).

[MemphisRob]

E36 sedan is looking really good right now. +.2 for 4 door and .7 for non A arm. That's a .9 advantage over other chassis right off the bat.

 

Yeah, e36 sedan is definitely the car to have for this class. NC mx5 isn't that terrible either, because it has really good stock brakes and doesn't really need any camber mods.

 

I’m thinking a gutted 2749lb+ E36 328i Sedan with M3 brakes, aero (splitter&wing), shod with 245 R7’s will be a really strong option for TT5.

 

Right now I have a TTD E36M3 with 218hp peak weighing 3175lb. To run in TT5 I could literally just add a splitter and wing, swap the 225 RC1’s for 245 R7’s and run a little less fuel and be good to go with what I think would be a competitive car right at the lb/hp limit.

 

I could pick my poison based on which class is at contingency for any given weekend. Although, I will need to invest $3-4K total for some wider wheels for the fresh HoHo R7’s (need to buy first set to qualify for contingency), then a splitter and wing.

 

I am anxious to see how the tire modifiers work out. I am guessing the RC1 (and other 100TW+ Tires) will need a little modifier help and the 200TW+ get a little more... however, the abuse of the 200TW “label” might prevent the ability to give more allowance there. Depending on the surface, I think the RE71 is as quick (or maybe quicker) than the RC1.

 

Greg, I’m sure you have an “anomaly list” a mile long of things that don’t fit perfectly into a box. Thanks for all the effort that undoubtedly went into the ruleset.