ST 5/6 (PT 5/6) Rules Proposal Thread--give your input here

[docwyte]

I can turn your argument right back on you. If you can't cut weight or add power, too bad! Every car isn't going to be competitive in every class, isn't that what you're saying?

 

My point is, if you're combining classes, the lower class should play up to the higher class, not have the higher class "dumb" down to the lower class.

 

Or better yet, leave the two classes separate! I still don't see the point in combining them. Not every region is going to have full classes across the board, this isn't a problem that we should be trying to fix. Car counts will vary class to class year by year. So be it.

 

I still argue that the lower "Letter" classes of TT are the gateway into W2W, that means it needs to be friendly to those with street cars. Yes, there will be those that will bring a car out that's totally prepped and that's their choice. However, if we turn TT into an arena where pretty much *everyone* is doing that, it really dissuades the casual participant from wanting to move up the ranks.

[DarkGift]

I can turn your argument right back on you. If you can't cut weight or add power, too bad! Every car isn't going to be competitive in every class, isn't that what you're saying?

 

No that is not what I said. I said it is a complex problem to solve. It is clear that you are trying to view the problem from your personal perspective instead of trying to look at the organization as a whole. As it can be just as hard to bring a car up as it is to bring a car down, you try to find some middle ground that encompasses as many as possible. My point was that your statement was ignorant, naive, and selfish to assume that someone else should have to make a change that would be just as hard as a change for you (while you have to do nothing).

 

Or better yet, leave the two classes separate! I still don't see the point in combining them.

 

Again because you only seem to be able to view the world from your perspective. I already explained that there are those who love to cherry pick classes where there is no competition so they can feel good about "winning", but there are also those who want true competition and won't come out if there is none. You get class proliferation when you try to keep the former happy at the expense of the latter. ST is really just a better formulation of PT, so it makes little sense to keep both categories. How to best merge them is what we are discussing.

 

One other point of merging classes is contingency. NASA has to negotiate with potential sponsors and I can guarantee you that it is harder to convince companies do so something like give away a free tire to X people that only have 3 competitors per class than it is to give away say 4 tires per class in well subscribed, but fewer, classes. I will have to say, even though it hurts me, I like the way Toyo does it for SM in spreading out the money. I don't think it helps class growth to give the "haves" even more of an advantage by winning fresh rubber every race.

 

I still argue that the lower "Letter" classes of TT are the gateway into W2W,

 

There is merit to that, and I addressed it. However, there is no one gateway into W2W. There are many, but the worst one would be taking your street car and then trying to shoehorn it into a racing series with the objective of winning. Many of us have gone down the path of taking their car to a track, getting hooked, start modifying car, bitch and moan when the car isn't competitive, also realize it is no longer a good street car, and then finally wisen up and build/buy a dedicated car that can win the class we want to run. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule. Some never intend to leave TT. Some just love their car and couldn't care less where it places. Etc. etc. I'm sure Greg has all the data from events and can see what funnels into what. Obviously they are doing something right as ST4 was a pretty big success.

 

Again, it is NASA's job to take all these differing view points and try to make something that works for most. It isn't easy and is probably why we don't have the ST5/6 rules yet (much to my chagrin as I'm in the middle of rebuilding my car and would love to have a target to build to.)

[docwyte]

Wow, I'm "ignorant, naive and selfish"? Really? Because you want all the TTC competitors to dumb down to TTD vs TTD having to play up to TTC?

 

Sounds like you're being "ignorant, naive and selfish"! Pot, meet kettle!

 

By combining these classes, either you shoot for the middle and piss everyone off, or you pick one way and piss off half the people. In my mind, it makes more sense to play up vs dumb down. You, obviously, are welcome to your own opinion and we can agree to disagree.

 

Calling me names makes you look petty and small, so congrats on that!

[dizzy8085]

Give it a rest docwyte. Change is coming.

[f1honda]

I've been doing TT with NASA for about 8 years and I'm finally taking the plunge into w2w next year. I like to be able to race and also supersize to TT. So GTS is out since those car can't migrate to TT very easy in the lower class. So I decided to go with something that will fit in tt5/st5 so I can run TT also. I would rather see similar rules to tt4/st4. Pretty much open modifications, just restrict p/w, limit some aero and or tread wear. Keep the formula simple.

[bionicbelly]

I still think it should follow the current scale.

 

tt1 - 6.00

tt2 - 8.00

tt3 - 10.00

tt4 - 12.00

tt5 - 14.00

 

Makes the most sense to me. D will still be there if you are honestly maxed out or don't want to move, Current C cars will be able to drop a little weight. Current D cars will be able to drop a LOT of weight.

 

Whatever it is, the sooner the better.

 

Hoping that now that championships are done, this will get some attention. It is a lot of work, I know, but there are a number of people waiting on them in order to figure out what to do next year.

[cadmad]

Keep in mind there's a lot of guys out there that are dead serious time trials racers. The time trials class offers a less expensive alternative way of racing as opposed to wheel to wheel racing. The chances of damage are much less in time trials and the reason why a lot of guys run in it. TT5 levels the playing field and will allow many of the cars that are currently competing with poor base ratings to be more competitive. There's quite a few guys out there that are loosing interest because they can't make their car competitive.

Running street cars in TT is great and a good stepping stone towards learning the ropes and being a competitive driver but ultimately the goal is to transition the HPDE driver that wants to advance into a racing driver. A big part of that is having a proper, safe race car. It's in everyone's best interest. They'll always be someone out there maximizing there car any way possible regardless of class and they'll always be faster then a lesser prepared car.

[bionicbelly]

Keep in mind there's a lot of guys out there that are dead serious time trials racers. The time trials class offers a less expensive alternative way of racing as opposed to wheel to wheel racing. The chances of damage are much less in time trials and the reason why a lot of guys run in it. TT5 levels the playing field and will allow many of the cars that are currently competing with poor base ratings to be more competitive. There's quite a few guys out there that are loosing interest because they can't make their car competitive.

Running street cars in TT is great and a good stepping stone towards learning the ropes and being a competitive driver but ultimately the goal is to transition the HPDE driver that wants to advance into a racing driver. A big part of that is having a proper, safe race car. It's in everyone's best interest. They'll always be someone out there maximizing there car any way possible regardless of class and they'll always be faster then a lesser prepared car.

 

I agree 100%. Not sure why TT is always viewed as a stepping stone. It is a destination for many, and for those it is a serious pursuit. I ran in D last year, but I'd really like to go up to five for just the reason you mentioned. To get rid of points mods that don't add any performance, and get rid of some weight.

[f1honda]

I still think it should follow the current scale.

 

tt1 - 6.00

tt2 - 8.00

tt3 - 10.00

tt4 - 12.00

tt5 - 14.00

 

 

The difference between 6:1 and 8:1 is 25%.

The difference between 12:1 and 14:1 is only 14%.

I think tt5 should be more like 15:1.

[DarkGift]

Because you want all the TTC competitors to dumb down to TTD vs TTD having to play up to TTC?

 

I never said that. Not even close. You have some reading comprehension issues. But just to play devil's advocate, how about we bump S/TTC up with S/TTB, combine S/TTD&E to S/TT5, and then S/TTF becomes S/TT6 and is reserved for entry level/budget racing (perhaps with less prep/mods). S/TTB doesn't have to do anything and you have to reduce weight and add more power to your street car. Doesn't sound nearly as attractive now does it? (And just in case people want to argue against this, no I don't think this would be a good solution.)

 

Anyway, IMO, this is the crux of the issue. How do you grow classes without taking cars out of their performance envelopes and making them uncompetitive? Ideally we'd just attract new people into the various classes, but that isn't easily done. It is a chicken and egg problem. Who's going to stick their neck out and build a car for a class that may not have good subscription numbers? I don't envy Greg and the leadership at NASA.

 

However, it takes time to build cars, seasons are ending for 2017, and people want to start their 2018 builds. Hopefully we can get rulesets in the next month or so, or it's going to be rough to have cars ready by the start of next year.

 

By combining these classes, either you shoot for the middle and pee-piddily-diddily everyone off,

 

Not if you do it right. No matter what you do, some people are not going to be happy. However you cannot afford to upset an entire class at the expense of another.

 

Calling me names makes you look petty and small, so congrats on that!

 

I never called you any names. I specifically said "your statement...". I stand by that.

[bionicbelly]

I still think it should follow the current scale.

 

tt1 - 6.00

tt2 - 8.00 R%D 28.5

tt3 - 10.00 R%D 22.2

tt4 - 12.00 R%D 18.1

tt5 - 14.00 R%D 15.4

 

 

The difference between 6:1 and 8:1 is 25%.

The difference between 12:1 and 14:1 is only 14%.

I think tt5 should be more like 15:1.

 

 

 

R%D from the class above. at 15:1, a 200 hp car would have to weigh 3000 lbs. That is a pretty hefty car. TT4 that car would weigh 2600. There are a lot more cars in TTD and C than the Miata to think about.

[f1honda]

 

 

 

R%D from the class above. at 15:1, a 200 hp car would have to weigh 3000 lbs. That is a pretty hefty car. TT4 that car would weigh 2600. There are a lot more cars in TTD and C than the Miata to think about.

 

200 * 12 = 2400. And I wouldn't think anyone making 200 whp would run TT4.

 

E36 m3 usually make 220 whp and scale in at 3200 in TTD, and they don't have a problem destroying the field.

[docwyte]

E36 M3 can't weigh less than 3175lbs, that's why they're scaling in at 3200lbs. That's also a semi gutted car, a car with a full interior will weigh quite a bit more. To get to 3200lbs I basically have to run 1/8th tank of fuel, even with the interior gutted behind me and fixed back seats/rollbar, etc.

 

Basic bolt ons will make 215-220rwhp on the E36 M3...

[lutfy]

 

 

 

R%D from the class above. at 15:1, a 200 hp car would have to weigh 3000 lbs. That is a pretty hefty car. TT4 that car would weigh 2600. There are a lot more cars in TTD and C than the Miata to think about.

 

200 * 12 = 2400. And I wouldn't think anyone making 200 whp would run TT4.

 

E36 m3 usually make 220 whp and scale in at 3200 in TTD, and they don't have a problem destroying the field.

 

Exactly! Having owned over half dozen of these (including a Euro Spec) and running various TT and BMW IS class (club racing), its virtually impossible to beat a well driven setup car. Even with the dyno reclass, they have a hp advantage (I got penalized more with my FRS). Hoping the rule change clears this up a bit so rest of us TTD guys have a chance

 

Lutfy

[DarkGift]

E36 M3 can't weigh less than 3175lbs,

 

I used to race an E36 M3. It was ~2650 lbs with driver and nothing exotic was done (sold it and the new owner said he's taken another 200+ lbs out of it). M3's can most certainly weigh much less than 3175. If cars are 3200, that's to meet the power to weight rules, not because they cannot get lighter.

[docwyte]

Exactly my point. E36 M3's can't weigh less than 3175lbs because of TT rules.

 

I'm not saying you can't get them lighter than that, but if you do, you'll need to add weight to get back up to minimum weight.

[flier129]

E36 M3 can't weigh less than 3175lbs, that's why they're scaling in at 3200lbs. That's also a semi gutted car, a car with a full interior will weigh quite a bit more. To get to 3200lbs I basically have to run 1/8th tank of fuel, even with the interior gutted behind me and fixed back seats/rollbar, etc.

 

I'm not an E36 expert, but that seems a tad heavy for semi-gutted car. This fully gutted E36M3's comp weight in TT4 is ~2830lbs wet:

f-5T78X3bB8

[docwyte]

That's TT4, which is pure power to weight. For TT letter classes there are minimum weights for every car. The minimum weight for the E36 M3 in a TT letter class is 3175 lbs.

[f1honda]

E36 m3 has one of the largest engine out of all the cars in ttd. Massive torque and power under the curve compare to most other cars in TTD that have high reving 4 banger. If they apply the avg hp rule in tt5, that could even the playing field some.

[flier129]

That's TT4, which is pure power to weight. For TT letter classes there are minimum weights for every car. The minimum weight for the E36 M3 in a TT letter class is 3175 lbs.

 

Ah, see your other posts now and what you we're getting at.

 

Upcoming ST5/6 aren't letter classes and don't have minimum weights, though. Do you think scaling is still that prevalent when you don't have minimum weight for a given model?

[DarkGift]

I'm not saying you can't get them lighter than that, but if you do, you'll need to add weight to get back up to minimum weight.

 

There is no minimum weight. It is a power to weight ratio class. You can just opt to have less power if you want less weight (e.g. might be optimal for a slow/twisty track). Perhaps you are confusing the base weight with a minimum weight. You can always go under the base if you are willing to take points. Read "B. WEIGHT REDUCTION" in the rules.

[docwyte]

DarkGift, please see the lower right column of the Time Trials rules, page 20. Minimum competition weight of E36 M3 = 3175lbs. If you go under that, you have to take a points penalty.

 

Flier129, I imagine in the number classes you'll have to establish your power to weight ratio and could be scaled after a session to make sure you're still compliant. I haven't run a TT number class in several years, so haven't really been paying attention.

[DarkGift]

DarkGift, please see the lower right column of the Time Trials rules, page 20. Minimum competition weight of E36 M3 = 3175lbs.

 

No. That is the base weight (which is what I said. Again please work on your reading comprehension). Competition weight is what the car must weigh when it rolls across the scales with the driver. So again there is no rule that states you have to roll across the scales at 3175 (as opposed to say Spec Miata or Spec Z where there is a stated weight and you cannot change it by making less power). Obviously you have to have turned in a classification form before hand to weigh less. This isn't just a pedantic point, it's a really nice feature of the rules.. Our PTE/E3 car has taken points to run light so we can run junk yard motors in enduros where overall pace isn't necessarily the determining factor for a win. It's nice that we can be competitive with $500 motors rather than $10K motors.

 

It's no different than the base tire size. Nothing says you have to run it, and smart racers will optimize their tire size (and brand) based on the points assessed.

[Greg G.]

Hi Folks,

 

I apologize that we have not been able to put an ST/PT/TT5 rules out. Ironically, it became much more complicated when we decided to depart the "base model table" Modification Factor paradigm recently. If we aren't careful, this class will end up being very expensive, with only a handful of cars that will be competitive. Yes, someone can argue that we already have a list of the most common competitive cars in PTD/PTC/TTD/TTC (S2000, M3 and a few other BMW's, FR-S/BRZ, Miata/MX-5, 350Z's), but we do need to do our best to allow for others (FWD's, Mustangs, RX-8's, etc). Obviously, we have been really busy this month with two Champs events to run.

 

There is no doubt that we need to keep consolidating classes to increase class counts, both regionally and Nationally (and across series as well). Increased class car counts leads to further increases, increased sponsorship and contingency prizes, better competition, better comradery, and makes the podium "worth" more to the individual competitors. We realize that change can suck, and I personally love it when I can put my car away at the end of the season and pull it back out for the start of the next season with no changes necessary. However, the success of the ST4/TT4 class has shown the benefits of making those changes.

 

So, with all of that said, I can only say that we are still working on this, and I won't release anything that I know will need to be changed multiple times in a very short time. As well, we are still working out bugs in the Avg HP formula, and tire sizes that will definitely effect this new class. We are still researching our tentative solution for the tire size issue, but hope to have that one decided within two weeks. I will hate it just as much as many of you if we can't add this class soon, but ultimately, I think we need to see it before COTA (with at least 6 months of build time), if for some reason it comes to that. Of course, we would then need to figure out what to do in regard to regional series (and what classes to allow at the Champs). BTW, I think COTA is going to be big (if not huge), and the best NASA Champs event ever, and not similar to the numbers seen at the recent split Champs. Start making your plans to go now--saving dates, etc.!

[cadmad]

thanks for the update. Keep plugging! Getting this done will be critical in keeping our TTC group as large as it is in the northeast. There's quite a few guys who have no way of being competitive and are getting discouraged.