MemphisRob Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 I posted on the wrong thread for my question. Thx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrocAZ Posted May 5, 2017 Share Posted May 5, 2017 +2 as we have a March race on our calendar heh...AZ has january events...so not much planning time. Ive sat out this season so far to prep for next season/rules change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy8085 Posted May 6, 2017 Share Posted May 6, 2017 +2 as we have a March race on our calendar heh...AZ has january events...so not much planning time. Ive sat out this season so far to prep for next season/rules change. TX region has a January events as well. Winter... What's that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ev Posted May 8, 2017 Share Posted May 8, 2017 heh...AZ has january events...so not much planning time. Ive sat out this season so far to prep for next season/rules change. .... and how does one prep for rules that don't exist?.. Realizing this, I would say June 1 is too late depending on the changes. My prediction is a bunch of people saying "F" this, and taking next year off too, or changing hobbies to something cheap like fishing... Tick tock, tick tock..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpearson Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 The final ST4 rules didn't come out until around the October/November timeframe in 2016 for the 2017 season. I would wager you are looking at about the same timeframe for the upcoming ST classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt@NCM Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 The final ST4 rules didn't come out until around the October/November timeframe in 2016 for the 2017 season. I would wager you are looking at about the same timeframe for the upcoming ST classes. Which would be a little late - I think ST-4 is a brilliant formula - but its going to take an extra season to get its legs underneath it because of how late the formula came out. The biggest question I think everyone is waiting for is Aero - Yay or Nay for ST5/6? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoahstu Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 I'm a non-aero user and have swayed in my aero acceptance for the lower classes. I'm for the aero as long as there's a heavy modifier applied. It would be a shame to have cars already competing in lower classes, with no obvious outliers, be forces to have a complete redo of their car. This is especially true for cars running under reclasses with aero as they essentially already have a heavy modifier applied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flier129 Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Checking in for updates! It would be fantastic to get the rules next month so we all have ~6 months to at least plan all our builds for ST5/6. Questions I'm curious on: - Will there be chassis modifiers? - What will the base adjusted wt/HP ratios for 5 and 6? - What will the tire sizes be for 5 and 6? Will it be the same for both? - Will the competition weights and modifiers in 1-4 carry over to 5/6? - Will there be modifiers for different tire type compounds outside of DOT and non-DOT? - Will aero be allowed, if so will there be modifiers for aero? - Will there be modifiers for everything currently listed in PT rules sections 5.3D/E/F? I'm sure there's others that are wondering this as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bionicbelly Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Checking in for updates! It would be fantastic to get the rules next month so we all have ~6 months to at least plan all our builds for ST5/6. Questions I'm curious on: - Will there be chassis modifiers? - What will the base adjusted wt/HP ratios for 5 and 6? - What will the tire sizes be for 5 and 6? Will it be the same for both? - Will the competition weights and modifiers in 1-4 carry over to 5/6? - Will there be modifiers for different tire type compounds outside of DOT and non-DOT? - Will aero be allowed, if so will there be modifiers for aero? - Will there be modifiers for everything currently listed in PT rules sections 5.3D/E/F? I'm sure there's others that are wondering this as well Hopefully (for me) the ratio's will follow the current scale. If that were the case they would be 14.00 and 16.00 respectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flier129 Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 Checking in for updates! It would be fantastic to get the rules next month so we all have ~6 months to at least plan all our builds for ST5/6. Questions I'm curious on: - Will there be chassis modifiers? - What will the base adjusted wt/HP ratios for 5 and 6? - What will the tire sizes be for 5 and 6? Will it be the same for both? - Will the competition weights and modifiers in 1-4 carry over to 5/6? - Will there be modifiers for different tire type compounds outside of DOT and non-DOT? - Will aero be allowed, if so will there be modifiers for aero? - Will there be modifiers for everything currently listed in PT rules sections 5.3D/E/F? I'm sure there's others that are wondering this as well Hopefully (for me) the ratio's will follow the current scale. If that were the case they would be 14.00 and 16.00 respectively. Well if I had to guess, 5 will be 14.5:1 avg since C is 14.5:1 avg this year. This makes me wonder if 6 will be 17:1 avg. If those numbers happen to be the ratios, 5/6 will be a tad faster next year..... depending on all the other modifiers of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hufflepuff Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 I recommend adopting the current 14.5:1 weight:avg. power currently being used in TTC. This will work for a lot of folks. I like the TT4 setup and look forward to TT5. It could be nice from a class size perspective to merge both TTD and TTC into TT5 while allowing the current cars to remain competitive. Allowances/penalties (discussed below) could help balance that field. I recommend an additional (but reasonable) "+10 tire" modifier in TT5 to help keep costs down and promote competition. TT4 is currently using -1.0 modified for "autocross" compound tires. I'd recommend dis-allowing autocross tires in TT5 (not that many folks in TTC/D/E are using them...?) and adopting a -0.5 to -1.0 modifier (or whatever value the calculations deem fair) in TT5 for the current +10 tires (Hoosier R7 et al) to level the playing field for those on +4 and +5 tires. Many of us in TTE/TTD/TTC are using Bridgestone RE71R / Maxxis RC1 / Toyo R888 / Toyo RR and are pretty close in lap times, but when a guy shows up on Hoosier R7 it's pretty much decided. Most of the new folks I talk to who are interested in getting in TT are put off by Hoosiers because they are street driving street cars and can't afford that budget, and it deters them from even participating ("well, I can't win without hoosiers, so why try?"). So at least a fair modifier would help engage more people. I'm not for banning aero, because a bunch of guys already have it and their cars are set up for it. I wouldn't want to push them away. But I do want it fairly accounted for. Ideas for "modifiers" in TT5 (in the spirit of a cost-controlled class): - Use the TT4 aero modifier as a penalty rather than credit (it's easier to slow down (de-mod, ballast) the fast guys than increase power on slow guys) - Ban "autocross tires", add an additional "+10 tire" modifier - Small credits for OEM suspension or brakes or driveline? (stock sways, no sphericals, factory LSD, etc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt@NCM Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Can we get any info on where the committee or group is leaning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flier129 Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Can we get any info on where the committee or group is leaning? +1 or maybe the 2018 rules or an ETA of the 2018 rules? Pretty please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy8085 Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Can we get any info on where the committee or group is leaning? +1 or maybe the 2018 rules or an ETA of the 2018 rules? Pretty please? +2 I just want to know what I can buy for my car! I'm scared to do anything to it, then have to redo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisRob Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I recommend adopting the current 14.5:1 weight:avg. power currently being used in TTC. This will work for a lot of folks. I like the TT4 setup and look forward to TT5. It could be nice from a class size perspective to merge both TTD and TTC into TT5 while allowing the current cars to remain competitive. Allowances/penalties (discussed below) could help balance that field. I recommend an additional (but reasonable) "+10 tire" modifier in TT5 to help keep costs down and promote competition. TT4 is currently using -1.0 modified for "autocross" compound tires. I'd recommend dis-allowing autocross tires in TT5 (not that many folks in TTC/D/E are using them...?) and adopting a -0.5 to -1.0 modifier (or whatever value the calculations deem fair) in TT5 for the current +10 tires (Hoosier R7 et al) to level the playing field for those on +4 and +5 tires. Many of us in TTE/TTD/TTC are using Bridgestone RE71R / Maxxis RC1 / Toyo R888 / Toyo RR and are pretty close in lap times, but when a guy shows up on Hoosier R7 it's pretty much decided. Most of the new folks I talk to who are interested in getting in TT are put off by Hoosiers because they are street driving street cars and can't afford that budget, and it deters them from even participating ("well, I can't win without hoosiers, so why try?"). So at least a fair modifier would help engage more people. I'm not for banning aero, because a bunch of guys already have it and their cars are set up for it. I wouldn't want to push them away. But I do want it fairly accounted for. Ideas for "modifiers" in TT5 (in the spirit of a cost-controlled class): - Use the TT4 aero modifier as a penalty rather than credit (it's easier to slow down (de-mod, ballast) the fast guys than increase power on slow guys) - Ban "autocross tires", add an additional "+10 tire" modifier - Small credits for OEM suspension or brakes or driveline? (stock sways, no sphericals, factory LSD, etc) very well said... especially with the tire part. Without a modifier to "equalize" the Hoosier advantage due to both it being a grippier compound and the laughable width ratings, we might be closing the doors to competitively using and promoting other tire manufacturers. I am a fan of Maxxis due to their generous contingency program and well priced RC1's that work great on track and wear well. They are great option for racers on a budget and are very popular in our NASA region. For most TT5/6 racers they would be looking at about $500 less for a set of RC1's than R7's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ev Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 +2 I just want to know what I can buy for my car! I'm scared to do anything to it, then have to redo. +3, papa needs to refresh motor. Can't build till rules come out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted June 27, 2017 Author National Staff Share Posted June 27, 2017 We are going to leave PTE/TTE alone for '18, and continue the current rules. I'll post more info in the next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arsprod Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Thanks Greg for getting this out before the end of the 17 season - very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy8085 Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 We are going to leave PTE/TTE alone for '18, and continue the current rules. I'll post more info in the next week. That's a surprise! Does that mean TTC/TTD are gone? Consolidated into TT5? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bionicbelly Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Thanks for the update! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hufflepuff Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 We are going to leave PTE/TTE alone for '18, and continue the current rules. I'll post more info in the next week. That's a surprise! Does that mean TTC/TTD are gone? Consolidated into TT5? Let's hope so!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppafeel Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 I recommend adopting the current 14.5:1 weight:avg. power currently being used in TTC. This will work for a lot of folks. I like the TT4 setup and look forward to TT5. It could be nice from a class size perspective to merge both TTD and TTC into TT5 while allowing the current cars to remain competitive. Allowances/penalties (discussed below) could help balance that field. I recommend an additional (but reasonable) "+10 tire" modifier in TT5 to help keep costs down and promote competition. TT4 is currently using -1.0 modified for "autocross" compound tires. I'd recommend dis-allowing autocross tires in TT5 (not that many folks in TTC/D/E are using them...?) and adopting a -0.5 to -1.0 modifier (or whatever value the calculations deem fair) in TT5 for the current +10 tires (Hoosier R7 et al) to level the playing field for those on +4 and +5 tires. Many of us in TTE/TTD/TTC are using Bridgestone RE71R / Maxxis RC1 / Toyo R888 / Toyo RR and are pretty close in lap times, but when a guy shows up on Hoosier R7 it's pretty much decided. Most of the new folks I talk to who are interested in getting in TT are put off by Hoosiers because they are street driving street cars and can't afford that budget, and it deters them from even participating ("well, I can't win without hoosiers, so why try?"). So at least a fair modifier would help engage more people. I'm not for banning aero, because a bunch of guys already have it and their cars are set up for it. I wouldn't want to push them away. But I do want it fairly accounted for. Ideas for "modifiers" in TT5 (in the spirit of a cost-controlled class): - Use the TT4 aero modifier as a penalty rather than credit (it's easier to slow down (de-mod, ballast) the fast guys than increase power on slow guys) - Ban "autocross tires", add an additional "+10 tire" modifier - Small credits for OEM suspension or brakes or driveline? (stock sways, no sphericals, factory LSD, etc) I too like this idea but what exactly do you mean by a "+10 tire" modifier for TT5? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted June 28, 2017 Author National Staff Share Posted June 28, 2017 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=132886&p=500436#p500436 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hufflepuff Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 I recommend adopting the current 14.5:1 weight:avg. power currently being used in TTC. This will work for a lot of folks. I like the TT4 setup and look forward to TT5. It could be nice from a class size perspective to merge both TTD and TTC into TT5 while allowing the current cars to remain competitive. Allowances/penalties (discussed below) could help balance that field. I recommend an additional (but reasonable) "+10 tire" modifier in TT5 to help keep costs down and promote competition. TT4 is currently using -1.0 modified for "autocross" compound tires. I'd recommend dis-allowing autocross tires in TT5 (not that many folks in TTC/D/E are using them...?) and adopting a -0.5 to -1.0 modifier (or whatever value the calculations deem fair) in TT5 for the current +10 tires (Hoosier R7 et al) to level the playing field for those on +4 and +5 tires. Many of us in TTE/TTD/TTC are using Bridgestone RE71R / Maxxis RC1 / Toyo R888 / Toyo RR and are pretty close in lap times, but when a guy shows up on Hoosier R7 it's pretty much decided. Most of the new folks I talk to who are interested in getting in TT are put off by Hoosiers because they are street driving street cars and can't afford that budget, and it deters them from even participating ("well, I can't win without hoosiers, so why try?"). So at least a fair modifier would help engage more people. I'm not for banning aero, because a bunch of guys already have it and their cars are set up for it. I wouldn't want to push them away. But I do want it fairly accounted for. Ideas for "modifiers" in TT5 (in the spirit of a cost-controlled class): - Use the TT4 aero modifier as a penalty rather than credit (it's easier to slow down (de-mod, ballast) the fast guys than increase power on slow guys) - Ban "autocross tires", add an additional "+10 tire" modifier - Small credits for OEM suspension or brakes or driveline? (stock sways, no sphericals, factory LSD, etc) I too like this idea but what exactly do you mean by a "+10 tire" modifier for TT5? TT4 7.4.2 Modification Factors, TT4 Only: DOT-approved R-comp Autocross tires = -1.0 Since tire compound was otherwise not controlled in TTU-TT3, this rule tries to account for super sticky rubber in TT4. My recommendation is that at the lower-cost TT5 level, some folks will be on 100-200TW tires, and that 40TW Hoosier rubber should probably have a modifier just as autocross compound tires have a modifier in TT4. Another way to level the field and control costs in TT5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hufflepuff Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 Expanding the number of horsepower points or increasing the RPM span during the AVG WGT:PWR calculations would help account for torquey vehicles (especially turbos, which can torque fill on the bottom end and mid-range). An example would be a Miata or RX8 or FRS/BRZ, which lack torque, vs. an EVO or E36 M3 or 350Z which have fatter powerbands with considerably more torque. If we expand the RPM span, that will help account for this disparity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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