ST 5/6 (PT 5/6) Rules Proposal Thread--give your input here

[lutfy]

Nasa TT Team, checking in to see if there was any update since the 1st?

 

Thank you.

 

Lutfy TTD MA

[dizzy8085]

I really hope we get the rules this year! I'm itching to get the car prepped for st5/tt5.

[bionicbelly]

Any chance there is an eta on this rules set?

[Snowmants]

I really hope we get the rules this year! I'm itching to get the car prepped for st5/tt5.

 

Agreed, I hope they push through and just get the new ST5/TT5 rules out this year. I feel like I've been hanging in limbo-- not wanting to mod or buy new parts to make the car competitive for the existing rules for fear of having to remove things and buy new parts when the rules change. LET'S JUST RIP THE BANDAID OFF

[docwyte]

Agreed, I'd really like to see what the power/weight ratio for TT5 is going to be. At 14.5:1 my '98 M3, which was previously leaving power on the table (a lot too, not a little) for TTC will be busting out of TT5 by a solid margin, which makes me unhappy. I really don't want to get pushed into TT4 with this car, where I'll be totally uncompetitive.

 

At that point I might as well just run HPDE4, or with the PCA. Or run whatever higher class needs an extra entry for contingency and get kickbacks. Or something.

 

Any update on the rules, etc?

[esr]

what would you like to see for power to weight?

 

 

Agreed, I'd really like to see what the power/weight ratio for TT5 is going to be. At 14.5:1 my '98 M3, which was previously leaving power on the table (a lot too, not a little) for TTC will be busting out of TT5 by a solid margin, which makes me unhappy. I really don't want to get pushed into TT4 with this car, where I'll be totally uncompetitive.

 

At that point I might as well just run HPDE4, or with the PCA. Or run whatever higher class needs an extra entry for contingency and get kickbacks. Or something.

 

Any update on the rules, etc?

[docwyte]

I suppose it depends on how they decide to make the ratio and what add backs there are. If they use the same average hp reading off the dyno that they have in the past, I'd like it to be 14:1, or even 13.5:1....

[dizzy8085]

Some will have to make changes for the new class. We're condensing two classes into one. Sucks you get caught in the middle, but either add power and go to 4 or add weight and stay in 5. I like 15:1 my self.

[docwyte]

Yeah, I guess. I thought ttc was turning into tt5? So what other class is getting lumped into tt5?

 

Very expensive to add power from where I am. Either have to put in forged pistons and race cams or do a motor swap. Neither are really very attractive. Will have to look at the new rule set and see what sort of weight I'd need to add....

[dizzy8085]

Yeah, I guess. I thought ttc was turning into tt5? So what other class is getting lumped into tt5?

 

Very expensive to add power from where I am. Either have to put in forged pistons and race cams or do a motor swap. Neither are really very attractive. Will have to look at the new rule set and see what sort of weight I'd need to add....

 

PTD/TTD

[docwyte]

Why? What's wrong with having TTC and TTD?

[brutus85]

Anything would be helpful at this point. It is October and I need to start gathering parts. With the dyno reclass I currently have 16.7:1 pw in TTD, pretty terrible. This makes it very hard for me to be competitive. I really don't want to try and make a CRX work in TT4, both budget and fwd, 5 should be a good fit.

[flier129]

Here's to hoping we'll hear something soon!

[Snowmants]

Just checking in for updated 2018 rules. Thanks!

[pastoli]

Looking forward to the rules coming out.

[cadmad]

I'm all for going to TT5. The average 14.5:1 AWHP yields a slower car than the old 12:1 MWHP. That should help TTD cars for joining the class and get everyone on a level playing field.

[docwyte]

I don't see why we're combining two classes into one. Leave TTD out of TTC/5. Either leave TTD alone or make it into TT6. There's plenty of people running both TTD and TTC in my region, we're not lacking for participants.

 

Making the TTC cars spend money to de-mod or add a bunch of weight to "level the field" with cars that were running a lower class is patently unfair. If anything make the TTD cars "play up" and either cut weight or add power to run with the TTC cars.

[djqd36]

There was 1 car in TTC and zero cars in PTC at western states championships...

[docwyte]

Not everyone is willing to take a bunch of time off work and spend thousands of dollars to go to the championships. That shouldn't be the main driver of combining the classes. That's the tail wagging the dog....

 

Using your example, even by combining TTD and TTC, the TT5 class would've had 1 participant at Western Nationals. So, combining the classes wouldn't have made any difference this year and probably won't going forward.

[dizzy8085]

The consolidation of classes is happening across many classes. Not just the D/C classes. The train has already started rolling, so there's no stopping it now.

 

At the end of the day. All you have to do is add weight to class down/or detune. Minimal investment. If you want to go up to tt4, and go faster, then you'll have to spend the money.

 

This change is definitely going to cause me to have to spend money on my ttd class car. I'm fine with it, however I wish the damn rules would come out so I can budget for the changes.

[docwyte]

Well, not really. It might be easy to add weight or detune if your TTD/TTC car is a gutted, dedicated track car.

 

Time Trial (at least in my mind) is supposed to be for the guy who wants to take his *street car* to the track and do a little safe competition with it.

 

It's really hard to add weight in a safe way to a street car. It's also a PITA to have to reflash everytime you're going to the track, plus many of the cars ECU's only allow "xx" amount of flashes.

 

Are we making TT just another avenue for all of the PT/ST racers to win more tires? Or are we trying to make it a stepping stone for people to get more involved in the sport and organization?

 

Especially now that we're talking about the lower classes and not TT1,2,3. The more that all of the TT classes start to resemble the PT/ST fully prepped race car classes the more barriers are put up for entry into the sport and the more people aren't going to run with NASA. Which then results in even more barren TT classes at the National Championships.

 

We already have an issue with people choosing to run open track days in my region vs NASA. They don't see the value, open track days are much cheaper and our local NASA doesn't offer instruction past HPDE1. If we remove the goal of moving up to TT in their street car, why would people ever bother to run with NASA?

[SubiePig]

Sooo now that we know where nationals it going to be, how about some ST5 rules?

[Grintch]

Well, not really. It might be easy to add weight or detune if your TTD/TTC car is a gutted, dedicated track car.

 

Time Trial (at least in my mind) is supposed to be for the guy who wants to take his *street car* to the track and do a little safe competition with it.

 

It's really hard to add weight in a safe way to a street car. It's also a PITA to have to reflash everytime you're going to the track, plus many of the cars ECU's only allow "xx" amount of flashes.

 

Are we making TT just another avenue for all of the PT/ST racers to win more tires? Or are we trying to make it a stepping stone for people to get more involved in the sport and organization?

 

Especially now that we're talking about the lower classes and not TT1,2,3. The more that all of the TT classes start to resemble the PT/ST fully prepped race car classes the more barriers are put up for entry into the sport and the more people aren't going to run with NASA. Which then results in even more barren TT classes at the National Championships.

 

We already have an issue with people choosing to run open track days in my region vs NASA. They don't see the value, open track days are much cheaper and our local NASA doesn't offer instruction past HPDE1. If we remove the goal of moving up to TT in their street car, why would people ever bother to run with NASA?

 

Right. PT and TTletter classes used to provide a path front stock to modified. The number classes you need to be pretty modified to start with. Which is a particular issue for TT where more cars get street use.

[Grintch]

Well, not really. It might be easy to add weight or detune if your TTD/TTC car is a gutted, dedicated track car.

 

Time Trial (at least in my mind) is supposed to be for the guy who wants to take his *street car* to the track and do a little safe competition with it.

 

It's really hard to add weight in a safe way to a street car. It's also a PITA to have to reflash everytime you're going to the track, plus many of the cars ECU's only allow "xx" amount of flashes.

 

Are we making TT just another avenue for all of the PT/ST racers to win more tires? Or are we trying to make it a stepping stone for people to get more involved in the sport and organization?

 

Especially now that we're talking about the lower classes and not TT1,2,3. The more that all of the TT classes start to resemble the PT/ST fully prepped race car classes the more barriers are put up for entry into the sport and the more people aren't going to run with NASA. Which then results in even more barren TT classes at the National Championships.

 

We already have an issue with people choosing to run open track days in my region vs NASA. They don't see the value, open track days are much cheaper and our local NASA doesn't offer instruction past HPDE1. If we remove the goal of moving up to TT in their street car, why would people ever bother to run with NASA?

 

Right. PT and TTletter classes used to provide a path front stock to modified. The number classes you need to be pretty modified to start with. Which is a particular issue for TT where more cars get street use.

[DarkGift]

Time Trial (at least in my mind) is supposed to be for the guy who wants to take his *street car* to the track and do a little safe competition with it.

 

While TT is open to "street cars", like most racing, there is no guarantee your car will be competitive. TT is a step on the way to wheel-to-wheel racing. Otherwise why bother having the same ruleset for both? Obviously not everyone will take all the steps, but that doesn't mean we should start making so many classes that everyone gets to win (affectionately known as the "I" class in the other org). It is impossible to make a handful of classes that can balance every street car out there. (Not to mention if you eliminate "race" cars, then you have the person who comes out in his stock daily driver versus the dedicated "track" car that just happens to have a license plate on it, etc. etc.) Unfortunately real life isn't a panacea. There is always going to be someone who was born with more talent, more ambition, more money. No matter what you do with the rules, there will always be an optimal car, or small set of cars, that are best suited for the current ruleset. Honestly, I think society would be better off if we focused on people trying to be the best version of themselves they could be rather than the best overall.

 

It's great that your region has a large TTC class. We have a huge SpecZ class, but for every region that has a huge class for X, there are many other regions that have the same classes with one or a small handful of cars. What's the point of "competing" if you're guaranteed a podium? Personally, I think it is a good thing that we are (trying to) consolidate classes.

 

Are we making TT just another avenue for all of the PT/ST racers to win more tires?

 

That isn't possible. You cannot double dip and win 2x the tires.

 

TTD cars "play up" and either cut weight or add power

 

Yes, the onus is always on the other guy. What if you can't cut weight and/or add power because you prepped your car to the limit of the rules? Rule changes are rarely fun/good in the short term, but what you have to look at is the long term health/growth of the series. It isn't an easy problem to solve. You're constantly trying to appease/keep your current clients, while trying to attract new ones.