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Anders Green

Spec Series: What's the point?

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Anders Green

The title is not mean to be inflamatory or defeatist. But here is the issue I see:

 

The discussion of what might be the rules of a spec car are missing the absolutly most fundamental question: what is the point of a spec series? Without first determining this, there is no way to decide whether any particular decision, rule, limitation, or idea is going in the right direction.

 

Some possible points could be

 

-The cheapest possible inital car build for competitors.

-The cheapest possible spec that will have a car last three seasons.

-The best non-open-class racing (as in driver competition).

-The most versatile (tunable) simple car.

-The most marketable vehicles (which may make the long term cheaper?)

-The easiest to build car.

 

To start trying to figure out whether certain brake systems or wheel sizes should be allowed without knowing the "Class Philosophy" I feel is premature.

 

So, I challenge you: participate in this thread without naming any car by brand. Let's discuss what the point of a spec class should be.

 

Cheers,

Anders

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jerseybrandon

Ok, I'll bite.

 

To take a readily available and easily maintained car and *drive* it to its (or your I suppose) limit.

 

No amount of dollars to power you. No fudging of the rules.

 

It levels the playing field and makes for more interesting competition with less mechanical and technical variables. Like rally doesnt have enough as it is.

 

Spec racing has proven itself over and over what it can do as a feeder system. The guys and gals who are flyin in spec XXXXX's will be laying it down 10 fold in a few years in the big boy big toy classes.

 

just my .02,

Brandon

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Knestis

Ahh - an excellent question, Anders. You get no argument from me about the importance of first principles...

 

First, I need to go on record as saying that I don't adhere to the some of the common misconceptions about spec classes (e.g., that they are inherently cheaper than other choices). Spec classes aren't simply by definition a good idea but, all other things being what they are, the best solution might...

 

** Be relatively affordable/easy to build initially and to repair - a common platform, offered over a long model life, with limited evolution; not so new that they demand premium prices but not old enough that they are becoming rust or collectors' items. Oddballs need not apply.

 

** Be robustly designed - minus clever alloy suspension pieces that are hard to repair/reinforce, plus mechanicals that have a history of taking a beating - perhaps drivetrain components that are overbuilt to support diesel or up-spec options (e.g., turbos).

 

** Be simple - 2wd, no clever electronic diffs or such, no turbo - fewer things to bust or demand service. A corollary to this is that it should be easy on parts, so something that is inherently lighter is better - less mass = less force for any given acceleration.

 

** Have good parts support - both in the performance/suspension/etc. and OE replacement aftermarkets, acvtively supported by the dealer, with OTS availablity of key parts (e.g., gravel dampers).

 

** Have a relatively low performance envelope - simply put, the more power something CAN make, the greater the difference that can be purchased with a bigger budget. This shifts emphasis to driver skill, relatively speaking.

 

** Built around specs that allow improvements with good value - strength/dollar spent for example. Allowances that simply make the car faster are not a good idea, even if they are fun.

 

More considerations...?

 

** Spec cars get more affordable when they are subisidized by group rate purchases of spec parts or by manufacturers or suppliers looking to leverage the class for marketing purposes. Absent this kind of support, a significant portion of the rationale for a spec class goes away in a puff of common sense.

 

** One advantage, regardless of support, is that a body of knowledge builds up around cars of a particular make/model. It isn't necessary for these to be true "spec" cars but some (a la the ITA Honda CRX) are essentially kits, that can be built by pretty much anyone, simply by duplicating common practice.

 

** NONE of this will legislate budgets. The only way to do this is with a "claimer" rule, whereby one competitor can buy or swap cars or components with another for a set fee. That has been demonstrated to work in entry-level short-track stock car classes but is tougher with fewer entrants, spread apart from one-another.

 

That's all I can come up with at this point. It's late.

 

K

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randyzimmer

We hashed this over at length at Special Stage.

(Not mentioning that a Subaru would be the obvious choice for cost, availability, toughness and parts avail..)

All it takes is a bunch of guys to agree and then compare times, no class required.

You get 50 guys to agree and show up at an event, you've done it.

 

GrpF had a plan - spec sube had a plan, what it takes is bodies willing to commit.

I don't know how they're (GpF) doing, but we have a trio of 2.5RS cars running in the CDN Nationals in the East and I think there'll be some added at the BC round.

 

Beware!

If you write the rules to YOUR car, chances are it will go nowhere.

I don't want to build YOUR car and no one else does either.

Before you rebuild a Golf, make sure that it is really the best choice.

If it were me, I'd cut my losses and start over with an Impreza.

rz

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Knestis
We hashed this over at length at Special Stage.

...If it were me, I'd cut my losses and start over with an Impreza.

 

What makes you think I want to, in your words, "build your car?"

 

I confess that I got back into this conversation because someone shared their idea of Spec G**f and I have a lot of respect for and experience with that platform. My actual, personal car will be rebuilt to an evolution of its last spec - as a multipurpose tool based on the IT rules...

 

http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/multi.php

 

...so my interest is broader than that. We have the internal capacity and knowledge base to support the G**f in rallying so, there's some motivation there, too.

 

I'd listen to arguments but my sense - being an admitted Brand S ignoramus - is that the I*****a fails several of my criteria above. I could be wrong but I wonder how something with multiple diffs and gearboxes - and a blower - is ever going to be as light on tires and parts, affordable to build, easy to maintain, and cheap to repair as something with a simple FWD layout.

 

K

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randyzimmer

I know the "build your car" thing sounds misplaced but you'll have to understand, I didn't build my car, Subaru did.

The car is all stock parts, no cams, no plated diffs, no strengenthend A arms or subframes, it even has stock brake pads.

 

The spec sube deal was always normally aspirated, and since the transmission is the mose fragile part, I thought a 2.2 would make it last longer, but most existing racers hate to give up their 2.5s so I was fought on that point (repeatedly, despite my logic).

 

First point is the Sube is Jap rather than German, so they are cheaper and more reliable - sorry but I've passed a lot of Audis on stage with the hood up. Nichols and Olsen both broke down before half distance this weekend and their Golves are much-modified with all the trick endurance stuff.

 

There are more Subes out there to buy cheaply too.

 

Diffs don't fail, so having three doesn't matter.

 

The power is split thu three paths (front is open) so no axle, or tire is overstressed, tires last a very long time.

 

Building a Sube means, installing safety stuff and a set of DMS.

Anything else is not required, nice maybe, but I've proven it redundant.

 

I'm going to update my rally log soon (I'm a year behind)

http://www.randyzimmer.com/video/rallyentrylog.pdf

but you'll see none of the DNF's (4/40) were due to the car failing.

 

Show me a car that'll equal that and remember, these things can win a Regional overall and run in the top 10 at a National, stock!

 

So, to go over your requirements:

 

** a common platform, offered over a long model life, with limited evolution;

Legacy and Impreza use common parts from 93-01

 

** Be robustly designed

Yep

 

** Be simple - 2wd, no clever electronic diffs or such, no turbo

Sube 4wd is actually more reliable than an open diff beating the heck out of a single tire and axle

 

** Have good parts support -

VSC in US and CanJam in Canada have parts on hand at the event!

 

** Have a relatively low performance envelope

the "powerful" RS has 165hp

 

** Built around specs that allow improvements with good value - strength/dollar spent for example.

Why spend money when the stock car is sufficient?

 

rz

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jerseybrandon

I agree with Randy 100% here... for 4wd that is. (I also followed the thread on SS.com closely)

 

The Subes (non-open class ones anyway) are rock solid reliable.

 

The VW's are as reliable as any 2wd car out there, more so than most.

 

The lower powered 4wd cars are very easy on tires. Wheel spinning front drivers are tough on rubber.

 

Spec Impreza for 4wd and spec golf for 2wd. Both sound like good ideas to me.

 

Brandon

 

Sorry to Anders for dropping names

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Knestis

Ah - it DOES make more sense minus the turbo. Thanks for clarifying that important point for me.

 

K

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RS WRC
The title is not mean to be inflamatory or defeatist. But here is the issue I see:

 

The discussion of what might be the rules of a spec car are missing the absolutly most fundamental question: what is the point of a spec series? Without first determining this, there is no way to decide whether any particular decision, rule, limitation, or idea is going in the right direction.

 

Some possible points could be

 

-The cheapest possible inital car build for competitors.

-The cheapest possible spec that will have a car last three seasons.

-The best non-open-class racing (as in driver competition).

-The most versatile (tunable) simple car.

-The most marketable vehicles (which may make the long term cheaper?)

-The easiest to build car.

 

To start trying to figure out whether certain brake systems or wheel sizes should be allowed without knowing the "Class Philosophy" I feel is premature.

 

So, I challenge you: participate in this thread without naming any car by brand. Let's discuss what the point of a spec class should be.

 

Cheers,

Anders

 

Well, I challenge you...

 

I understand $$$ being the big hurdle in front of US Rallying, luring in more competitors and such; however, it's the exact same situation in other countries that are known to be very active in Rally Racing -World level...

I think with cheap cars and equipment, you only get cheap results.

 

We all know(if not yet, eventually will) that any equipment we use in rallying is at least three times the value of a standard or 'Tuner' aftermarket garbage. Expecting to successfully sell the idea of running a 'spec' rally class with the cheapest car/equipment sounds near impossible to me.

 

From 'spec class' in rallying, I understand 'one make cup'...Trying to bring in a classing structure a.k.a 'spec class' is like re-inventing the wheel to me. There are already well established and globally accepted FIA rules & classing for this.

It's just a matter of finding investors and marketing this idea to them. In US, there seems to be a good amount of people, organizations, market, capital, even established rally prep. shops(or a coalition of them) that can handle the demand if needed.(Nascar has a lot to teach to US Rally in this sense!)

 

Before any comments, I'd like to add that I'm getting ready to run next season in a 'Rally Cup', in another country 1000s miles away, with a full blown Gr.N car, developed by on of the top WRC teams, prepared and run by the manufacturer itself. I find myself -plain- lucky to be able to commit to that Rally Cup; and I have my reasons:

-it promises to be a real challenge

-it is arrive and drive, fraction of the cost of owning & running the car

-winning it opens a window to the next level (JWRC, ERC)

-a lot of promotion, media coverage (=$)

-I only need to be present with my co-driver & helmets

-this is how it's done around the world to develop Rallying in general

-this is how all the most successful rally drivers of today started doing it.

 

It's easier to make this happen in the US; and I'm sure there are many like minded potential participants like me.

 

Just don't even think about running something like a Spec Miata (Don't get me wrong, I'm not against it, I have a Spec Miata)

 

Burak

http://www.btmsport.com

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RS WRC

Wow, when I read it again, I feel like I spitted out what I've been holding for years

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RS WRC
We hashed this over at length at Special Stage.

(Not mentioning that a Subaru would be the obvious choice for cost, availability, toughness and parts avail..)

All it takes is a bunch of guys to agree and then compare times, no class required.

You get 50 guys to agree and show up at an event, you've done it.

 

GrpF had a plan - spec sube had a plan, what it takes is bodies willing to commit.

I don't know how they're (GpF) doing, but we have a trio of 2.5RS cars running in the CDN Nationals in the East and I think there'll be some added at the BC round.

 

Beware!

If you write the rules to YOUR car, chances are it will go nowhere.

I don't want to build YOUR car and no one else does either.

Before you rebuild a Golf, make sure that it is really the best choice.

If it were me, I'd cut my losses and start over with an Impreza.

rz

 

Subaru seems to be the most expensive running cost option for a "one-make cup", the standard parts are of course widely available, but are not durable for rallying and competition parts have only one source, who is alreday commited to US Rallying and are spending gazillion $s, have their own 'Cup' already.

 

I agree, it was discussed before, there are other alternatives... As long as the cars are the same, who cares if they are 4WD or 2WD...

 

We've had discussions about this, there are more suitable cars for this (I don't want to name the manufacturers but, they have cars runnig in the WRC, and they sell many cars in the US, too!)

 

Burak

http://www.btmsport.com

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Anders Green

Hi Burak

 

First, I wish you great luck on your Group N adventure!

 

Second, I'd like say this: I tried in my first post to pose only questions, and not state my own opinions. I will now join the thread with some of my opinions.

 

I'm not at all convinced that "going cheap" will be at all successful. I did mention that one possible route was going with the "most marketable" car, and I feel that that is the direction that would be the most likely to suceed. This would mean a car that is still in production, and domestic.

 

Could you expand on what you meant by "no Spec Miata"? Do you mean not that exact model of car, or the way they do something in that series. I think your insight (given that you run one) would be quite valuble.

 

Cheers,

Anders

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randyzimmer

"the standard parts are of course widely available, but are not durable for rallying"

 

Since you have the available funds to "do it right" you may come to Buffalo and see my car in person and look at the "not suitable" standard parts on it.

NO parts have been changed since the start of the season!

5th Rocky

7th Baie

4th Defi

these are overall placings with a stock 2.5RS NA

Shocks have been greased and plastic shields replaced as needed but NO Subaru parts other than filters have been changed.

 

Good luck with your effort.

Sounds like a dream come true, but more than we mortals can afford.

rz

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Knestis
... I'm not at all convinced that "going cheap" will be at all successful. I did mention that one possible route was going with the "most marketable" car, and I feel that that is the direction that would be the most likely to suceed. This would mean a car that is still in production, and domestic. ...

 

Another good point. There are two ways to tackle affordability: Decrease the expense side of the equation, or increase the revenues that might be generated.

 

This is why simply specifying a tire brand/model (a la NASA road racing in a couple of places, or SCCA in a few classes) doesn't always result in savings for competitors. If I'm required to run Toyos and they are selling them only at retail (or an inflated prices, since they have a monopoly), I will spend more than if I have the freedom to get manufacturer or distributor sponsorship for Hoosiers. Or vice-versa.

 

I spent more starting Project GTI with a MkIII than I would had I gone with the MkII Golf tub, specifically because I wanted a car that was one generation less out of production. This bears on both parts availability and marketability to my thinking...

 

K

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jerseybrandon

Another good point. There are two ways to tackle affordability: Decrease the expense side of the equation, or increase the revenues that might be generated.

K

 

Decreasing the expense is THE way to do it. Paying sponsors are not easy to find, and just because you can build a good car does not mean you can market it. No one should dive into building a crazy expensive new car under the assumtion they will get paid.

 

Please note the "you" was not directed to Kirk or anyone specifically. I am just making the point that no one is rallying for free, or even close. If building a modern marketable car and getting people to pay for your ride were that easy, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

Since we all know we will not get rich from this sport, we might as well have fun and keep it grassroots while maintaining a certain level of professionalism and nice tight competition.

 

Brandon

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Knestis

But I was going to go pro and rally for a living.

 

K

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RS WRC
Hi Burak

 

First, I wish you great luck on your Group N adventure!

 

Second, I'd like say this: I tried in my first post to pose only questions, and not state my own opinions. I will now join the thread with some of my opinions.

 

I'm not at all convinced that "going cheap" will be at all successful. I did mention that one possible route was going with the "most marketable" car, and I feel that that is the direction that would be the most likely to suceed. This would mean a car that is still in production, and domestic.

 

Could you expand on what you meant by "no Spec Miata"? Do you mean not that exact model of car, or the way they do something in that series. I think your insight (given that you run one) would be quite valuble.

 

Cheers,

Anders

 

Thanks a lot:) as you put it, although it is a dream come true, it'll definitely be a though adventure for me; big challenge! But I'd like to clear one point that not all Gr.N cars are what we see here in US. The Cup I will be runing in '06 is a Ford Fiesta(smaller than Focus), the cars are developed & built to FIA Gr. N specs (read-Gr.N>production cars>PGT>affordable>cheap!), not a $200KProdrive Gr.N! From the looks of it, it can easily run top 10 overall in any USA rally, if not top 5 with the right driver of course

By 'no SM-, I was meaning the build-your-own-kit-car (or buy somenone's already built) mentality part of it. IMHO, I don't think there are car platforms out there that any domesctic manufacturer will put together a support program like Mazda. I believe SM is a unique program that can not be copied to any rally spec due to lack of manufacturer>rally involvement. i.e. I would have loved to see DaimlerChrsyler/Mopar put something together, but I guess(and unfortunately) they can not justify the cost to the current market. Without that support/contingencies it will still cost the same as it is today...On the other hand, I really like to learn more from SM(that's why I have one now, another one in the build process)...learn how in the world it became this popular; we're talking hundreds of race ready Spec Miata's in here...

 

I still believe if we(potential customers) can voice up the demand, someone will come up with the supply. the idea is just very french to most people, I'm sure we can make it grow in them

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RS WRC
"the standard parts are of course widely available, but are not durable for rallying"

 

Since you have the available funds to "do it right" you may come to Buffalo and see my car in person and look at the "not suitable" standard parts on it.

NO parts have been changed since the start of the season!

5th Rocky

7th Baie

4th Defi

these are overall placings with a stock 2.5RS NA

Shocks have been greased and plastic shields replaced as needed but NO Subaru parts other than filters have been changed.

rz

 

 

I've been watching your great results closely; I've seen your car in person twice But you can not show me one or two more Anders'

Imagine this: there is a 'spec impreza rs' class next year running USAC, and you are asked to prepare 10 identical PGT cars with minimum costs, cars need to be ultra reliable -people are paying you and expecting a 100% car all the time... Don't you think these cars may be a bit different then yours?

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RS WRC
"Sounds like a dream come true, but more than we mortals can afford.

rz

 

Well, believe it or not it's way less than you think because of the manufacturer involvement. How about 15Keuro for arrive and drive sounds to you; not to mention the championship prize of the same $ value! And there are 62 competition licensed mortals lined-up in that country which is still known to be 3rd World.

 

I'm sure you would have been all over something like this in ESRC! , at least me and 4 other buddies would have...But, it's a different world in here

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randyzimmer

Thanks for the interest,

regarding, "Imagine this: there is a 'spec impreza rs' class next year running USAC, and you are asked to prepare 10 identical PGT cars with minimum costs, cars need to be ultra reliable -people are paying you and expecting a 100% car all the time... Don't you think these cars may be a bit different then yours?"

 

Yes, they would be different. I'd start with the cheaper to buy 2.2 engine cars. Because CARS doesn't like alloy cages, it'd be made of mild steel. Other than that (both cheaper) I'd say they'd be the same.

 

$30,000 is a lot of money for me.

I'm glad you can swing it and wish you luck!

rz

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bjorn240
Well, believe it or not it's way less than you think because of the manufacturer involvement. How about 15Keuro for arrive and drive sounds to you; not to mention the championship prize of the same $ value! And there are 62 competition licensed mortals lined-up in that country which is still known to be 3rd World.

 

With all due respect, the Ford Rallyesport Turkey Fiesta cup looks like a pretty good national one-make series, but it doesn't seem to offer anything above and beyond what the Peugeot A6 cup in the UK or the Clio N2 cup in Sweden have offered for years.

 

And to say that it's 15K euro for arrive and drive is misleading. It's 15K euro for arrive and drive, plus 5 trips to Turkey, plus lodging, plus finding a crew, plus, plus, plus. By the time you pay for that, you could buy a very nice N2 car and run it here in G2, as well.

 

Point being, running a manufacturer-supported one-make series might be a good investment, and that one looks good if you're in Turkey. For competitors in the US, it's not much of a win.

 

- Christian

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RS WRC
Well, believe it or not it's way less than you think because of the manufacturer involvement. How about 15Keuro for arrive and drive sounds to you; not to mention the championship prize of the same $ value! And there are 62 competition licensed mortals lined-up in that country which is still known to be 3rd World.

 

With all due respect, the Ford Rallyesport Turkey Fiesta cup looks like a pretty good national one-make series, but it doesn't seem to offer anything above and beyond what the Peugeot A6 cup in the UK or the Clio N2 cup in Sweden have offered for years.

 

And to say that it's 15K euro for arrive and drive is misleading. It's 15K euro for arrive and drive, plus 5 trips to Turkey, plus lodging, plus finding a crew, plus, plus, plus. By the time you pay for that, you could buy a very nice N2 car and run it here in G2, as well.

 

Point being, running a manufacturer-supported one-make series might be a good investment, and that one looks good if you're in Turkey. For competitors in the US, it's not much of a win.

 

- Christian

 

My whole point was exactly what you've just said. I wanted to bring the idea of a certain one-make cup, only to snap-shot what's going on elsewhere in the world, and to point out that it can easily be done in USA.

I apologise if I couldn't make myself clear enough and caused a misconception; I'm not asking or trying to recruit anyone -US Rally competitor or not- to go run a championship 1000s of miles away from here...

Like your examples, and many many more one make cups are being run around the world to attract more people into rally sport, ease the entry into, as well as to promote brands/products who brings in the capital that makes rallying possible, as you may very well know. And fortunately, as one of the side-products, these one-make series also offer the chance of a level competition between future rally champions (like McRae, Burns, Loeb and others!), as well as promise the winner a free season of running a higher spec'd car the following year generally(see S.Loeb's carreer). So, they are not useless/National/local/ championships as you've put; IMHO, they're what US rallying badly needs today(if not yesterday).

Unfortunately the situation in the US is getting more and more hopeless to future and current US rally participants(it can be observed in this forum and others), and I felt the need to chip in.

 

I wish, I dream, that something similar to a one-make series (heck, even the one running south of the border) happens here...

 

Let's talk and discuss what/how can we do it to make it happen, and not put down the working examples that benefited many.

Now, go find 10 of those very nice N2 cars (btw, Fiesta is N3), find an organization and promise to run a full championship for $X amount, I'll be there...

 

Just wishful thinking

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Knestis

Those "cup" series make sense only because they are heavily subsidized by the manufacturers. I've been involved in them in road racing and have both benefitted and been screwed, as they come and go.

 

That is NOT going to happen in US rallying, unless an enthusiast is making the decisions for some brand - or has something on someone who is.

 

I think that the purpose of this conversation is to define something that might grow out of the grassroots, even though that is not much more likely to succeed. At the end of the day, the most likely scenario is that someone does the legwork to source budget bits and builds the knowledge base to decrease barriers to entry, and a de facto spec class grows up in the existing M2/G2 class structure.

 

K

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kwh29

Isn't G2 virtually spec as it is? Lots and lots of A2 Golf's running with VERY similar prep levels. Anyway, that's an aside.

 

In an ideal world a manufacturer Mazda would offer a subsidised parts kit and a strong contingency for those who run the kit on a current appearing car the 3 and it could run within the current classing structure until enough people chose to run the class that it bacame national.

 

In our increasingly fragmented rally world it seems that the only thing that will work is a competitor driven approach. Randy has put his money where his mouth is. Kirk is serious about his approach. I know others in the local area are supportive of the spec G2 Golf concept too. I hope both formulas succeed. Having both paths available is great as it allows two parallel obvious entryways into the sport -- a 2wd "budget" spec class and a 4wd "slightly less cheap" class.

 

Of course, I've done a rally costs spreadsheet and now realize very well that for anything short of GN or open the car cost is trivial compared to the cost of everything else. Mine showed a 6-event season costing ~$14,000 with remarkably few luxuries Add a car/tow vehicle/trailer and the difference between Golf and stockish non-turbo Impreza is less than $5000 out of ~$35,000...

 

--Kevin H.

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mothra

I like the idea of a budget minded entry level spec class that does a good job of specifing every component on the car. Down to wheels and cage kit, etc. Allow new people to focus on driving, etc. and not on the nuances of car building rules.

 

I also like the idea a 2wd and awd option both built to fit within an exisitng class structure. As much as I like th egolf I am not sure that something like a newer Honda civic hatch migt not be a better car to consider. Marketability. Also it might be possible to linkit with NASA's Honda challange.

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