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bpanther

NP01 in TT2/TT3 and ST2/ST3

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bpanther

Just wanted to post a reminder about running the NP01 in TT. We have different ways to fit into the classes.

 

 

TECHNICAL BULLETIN 5-3-16

NASA NP01 in ST

 

Appendix A—Technical Bulletins, Approvals, Assessments for Specific Car Models

 

NP01 (ST3):

The NASA NP01 is only permitted to compete in ST3 as follows:

1) The Minimum Competition Weight must be equal to or greater than 1800 lbs.

2) The vehicle must be 100% compliant with all NP Series rules, including the specified Toyo 235 x 17 RR tires.

3) The vehicle may compete in regional competition without having chassis Dynamometer Dynojet pre-competition testing, but the driver/owner must still complete a pre-competition ST Car Classification Form.

4) Competition in a NASA Championship event requires pre-competition Dyno testing.

5) The vehicle is still subject to post-competition Dyno inspection, and must be compliant with the 10.0:1 limit of "Adjusted Weight/Power Ratio".

Modification Factors include -0.3 for weight, -0.4 for Non-Production, -0.6 for transmission, +0.7 for tires.

 

 

NP01 (ST1/ST2):

1) The NASA NP01 may compete in ST1 or ST2, but MUST assess the -2.0 Modification Factor for weight under 1800 lbs, REGARDLESS of the actual

Minimum Competition Weight. The vehicle is not restricted to NP "spec" modifications or tires.

2) If the vehicle has a NASA/Elan sealed engine, the vehicle may compete in regional competition without having chassis Dynamometer Dynojet pre-competition testing, but the driver/owner must still complete a pre-competition ST Car Classification Form.

3) Competition in a NASA Championship event requires pre-competition Dyno testing.

4) The vehicle is still subject to post-competition Dyno inspection, and must be compliant with the limit of "Adjusted Weight/Power Ratio" for its class.

 

_________________

Greg Greenbaum

National TT, PT, & ST Director

Nat. Medical Director

greg@nasa-tt.com

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C.Plavan
Just wanted to post a reminder about running the NP01 in TT. We have different ways to fit into the classes.

 

 

You can run the NP01 in its 100% compliant state for the NP01 class in ST3/TT3 at 1800lbs with driver. Everything must be per the NP01 class rules (tires, bodywork, ECU tune, sealed motor,etc). If you run in ST3/TT3 this way, you do not need a dyno sheet or additional cert paperwork. Again, the car must meet all the rules for the NP01 class and weigh 1800lbs.

 

 

You can run the NP01 in ST2/TT2 with any legal ST/TT mods permitted provided you have the dyno sheet and cert paperwork. This is basically the same as any other car in TT/ST2. You will need to meet the calculated HP/WT ratio. Don't forget to include non OEM street car, sequential trans, etc

 

 

 

Good stuff. There is one race in June I may run as ST3 (not a NP01 series race month). Good news on not needing the Dyno sheet also (do all regions know this?). Since we are heavier than originally than thought, getting to 1800lbs is alot easier.

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bpanther

All regions should be aware of this. I think Greg will add to the ST / TT rules. Worst case, just pull up this forum.

 

I've been opting for ST2 and TT2 do I don't have to add the weight. I did a dyno run in March and did the paper work which takes all of 5 minutes.

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brkntrxn

Out of curiosity, what parameters did NASA use to slot this car into ST3/TT3 as-is in NP01 spec? Has a real hotshoe ran the car at a track against another local ST3/TT3 car and hotshoe to see how they compare on lap times?

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sperkins

Tube frame, factory aero, no dyno needed. That's a good one.

I'm sorry, but why were the ST/TT rules thrown out the window for this car?

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bpanther

The math works out for the 1800 lbs. Since the engine is sealed, each is sealed, intake and exhaust spec then it's pretty much impossible to make more than the HP used for the calcs. We also pull AEM data from the computer and can easily tell if there is power tampering.

 

As a side note, I'm not interested in doing TT3. I'm 1600 lbs low fuel with driver, the 1800 is way to far away for me.

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B Esquire
Tube frame, factory aero, no dyno needed. That's a good one.

I'm sorry, but why were the ST/TT rules thrown out the window for this car?

 

I am totally in favor of running the NP01 in ST/TT3 until their car counts get higher, or if someone wants to run additional events. But they need to follow the same rules as everyone else, including being measure on the NASA certified dyno of your region like every other car. Taking HP measurements at Elan is not apples to apples.

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Bnjmn

With no disrespect at all to the NP01 program, this seems rather exceptional. If it isn't in the rules, it isn't in the rules. Looking at another ST3/TT3 Mazda tube frame car -- does the NP01 really need a special dispensation to compete with a 7's Only Mazda (not to mention vs every other OEM and non-OEM car in the field)?

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brkntrxn

Dave,

 

You realize the issue here, right? NASA develops a car and then says it slots into ST3 without following the ST rules. I agree the math works out, I just did it before reading your post. IF it has 170rwhp, then it nails the 10:1 xx3 limit. HOWEVER, why would this car get an exception from the paperwork AND the certified dyno graph? THAT is the issue.

 

I have a stock LS6 that a fat man in Kentucky assembled on a Friday 13 years ago. It is still sealed to this day. But because I can tune the car with a laptop, I have to provide a certified dyno graph AND I get "randomly" dyno'ed at multiple events each year.

Edited by Guest

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B Esquire
The math works out for the 1800 lbs. Since the engine is sealed, each is sealed, intake and exhaust spec then it's pretty much impossible to make more than the HP used for the calcs. We also pull AEM data from the computer and can easily tell if there is power tampering.

 

As a side note, I'm not interested in doing TT3. I'm 1600 lbs low fuel with driver, the 1800 is way to far away for me.

 

Has anyone ever had one on a NASA certified dyno jet?

 

With this math they can't make more than 170 HP.

 

1800/170 = 10.6:1

 

-.4 non production mod

-.6 sequential trans

+.7 235 Toyo

-.3 for 1800 lbs

= 10:1

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brkntrxn

What about -.2 for rear engine?

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Bnjmn

mid, not rear

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bpanther

My peak.... Was 163. I haven't done the average for tt3, st3 which in theory should be lower.

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Arca_ex
My peak.... Was 163. I haven't done the average for tt3, st3 which in theory should be lower.

 

 

Doesn't matter. Even if peak was 5 WHP it should not be immune to getting boned by a dyno that is having a bad day, or happens to be reading way higher than a local dyno etc etc. Either play by the rules that everyone else has to play by, or stay in your own class.

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bpanther
My peak.... Was 163. I haven't done the average for tt3, st3 which in theory should be lower.

 

 

Doesn't matter. Even if peak was 5 WHP it should not be immune to getting boned by a dyno that is having a bad day, or happens to be reading way higher than a local dyno etc etc. Either play by the rules that everyone else has to play by, or stay in your own class.

 

That's why I run in ST2/TT2. Lots of room for error.

 

I asked Greg to chime in on this.

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dbrad

Well balanced, aero friendly purpose built race car with auto placement in TT3, guess that seems fair

 

Look at the Buttonwillow April results. The NP01's were considerably faster than TT3 and faster than ST2 for that matter.

 

The NP01 is going to be a great Spec race class. However more thought needs to be given how these cars fit in ST or TT for those choosing not to race in the NP01 class.

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Greg G.

I'm always surprised when you guys show little faith in those who envisioned, researched, developed, authored rules, and maintain and revise the rules of your two great series (ST and TT) that have provided awesome competition for years.

 

Obviously, NASA has done a bunch of testing on the NP01, as it is the only car that has the NASA name attached to it. We have never seen any Dynojet numbers over 169 rwhp max (with the Avg HP being much lower than that, and as Dave stated, his max was 163 rwhp). As currently written, the rules would permit an NP01 to run in ST3 at 1800 lbs using any DOT approved tire, and with additional modifications and upgrades that are not permitted in the Spec series. So, for those of you who want us to just "follow the rules as written", then kiss the ST3 class goodbye. We ARE NOT going to permit the NP to run in ST3 using the current rules. A T.B. upcoming will specifically not permit it to. However, under the conditions of running under the Spec rules, using the Spec tires, and all other Spec mods, including the sealed engine with data acquisition that is monitored by NASA, the car is "legal under the current rules formula" to run in ST3, and we will permit it to--at least for now (and you know that when circumstances change, NASA has no problem making appropriate adjustments, as our goal is great competition). Buttonwillow was actually a great test event, as the two top NP's were professional teams/drivers on a fairly technical track that is clearly not a "power track"--but will be our Western States Champs track this year. (Jeremy's times were about 2-3 seconds slower without having a professional team backing him up). Perhaps some of you missed Tristan's qualifying times in ST3 in his M3 that were 2 seconds a lap faster than the top NP's? So, at least for now, we have top level competitors on both the NP side and ST side in ST3 that are appropriately matched up. We will be keeping a close eye on this obviously. At "power tracks", I don't think that the results will be as close, and the higher HP cars will dominate.

 

Now, as far as the Dyno sheets/Cert Forms are concerned, since we are accepting the car in ST3, with the sealed motors and Data Acq., along with our own testing of these "NASA" vehicles, it seems pointless to send them all to the Dyno prior to competition. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that we can't send them if we find the need post-impound! In fact, I would assume that at a Championship event, any top level car in ST is going to the Dyno. This aspect is not a free pass to have a non-compliant car, it is just a way to help ease the transition period as the NP series starts up. Our testing has shown that if they stay with the Spec motor, etc., that they will all be compliant. So, with that being said, if there are NP guys who are serious about competing in ST or TT, then they should get the car on a Dynojet themselves at some point. And, if they find any results that differ from ours, they should let us know ASAP so that we can adjust as necessary.

 

So, as usual, if you continue to have concerns, voice them without the sarcasm that may amuse you, but does little to bolster your opinion, or just send me or Dave an e-mail.

 

Thanks,

Greg G.

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brkntrxn

Greg,

 

As you will recall, I was (and have been) a proponent of eliminating STR classes from the beginning. So please do not take my questioning in the view that I am opposed to the NP01 being in ST3. I want to grow ST and in my opinion, any and all cars are welcome. My concern is with my own ability to know what I am competing against. As an ST competitor, I have the ability/right to ask to see the paperwork on a fellow competitor. Whether from the Class Official or from the Competitor/Car Owner. From that paperwork, I can see that the car is legal per the paperwork and dyno and get an idea on what equipment the car contains. I do not have the right nor ability to "send the car to the dyno" unless I follow the proper protest procedures as outlined in the NASA guidelines, but I can ask to see the paperwork.

 

I am not familiar with the NP01s at all. Therefore, I have no clue what "NP01 Spec" means nor do I care to learn. I don't know the spec tire. I don't know the spec engine hp (sealed or not). I do not know the transmission. And so on. The only "clue" I can have is by looking at the ST paperwork. This is very similar to a Spec Miata, Spec e30, or dyno-recert car competing in PT/TT. We know those cars are good by knowing that they are completing the same PT/TT paperwork we complete. We do not have to learn their spec series rules because we are familiar with the ST/PT series rules. When the Thunder Roadsters first started crossing over to ST3, we went through the exact same confusion. The helping factor was the ST paperwork and dyno that guided myself and the others through the legality of the cars. You should remember this confusion from my emails with you and everyone else after the Roebling event in April 2014 when one of them was questioned/protested.

 

You made the comment that you are "surprised when you guys show little faith.....". Yes, we the racers and customers and bill payers show little faith when we are fully unaware and something blindsides us by the NASA decision makers. The recent GTS debacle is a good example. Had this post or some other bulletin simply started with an explanation of the previous testing, the ST formula mathematics, and the reasons behind the decision, I am certain the news would have been received differently. I personally look forward to racing an NP01 in ST3. However, I know of no one in the Southeast or Mid-Atlantic that has one of these cars. And I know of even less people that know what the AIM data acquisition should be telling the officials when one does show up.

 

The ST racers should NOT have to learn the ruleset of another series when a competitor shows up to race in ST. Simply stated, simply understood. If the NASA decision makers cannot understand our desire for ALL competitors to complete the same paperwork that we have to complete, then this conversation is a moot point.

 

I will gladly discuss this in person if someone wants to call me. As usual, some of the decision makers will take my questioning as I am the only voice of concern and I am negative. Counter to that, I am speaking what MANY others are saying offline.

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Greg G.
Greg,

 

As you will recall, I was (and have been) a proponent of eliminating STR classes from the beginning. So please do not take my questioning in the view that I am opposed to the NP01 being in ST3. I want to grow ST and in my opinion, any and all cars are welcome. My concern is with my own ability to know what I am competing against. As an ST competitor, I have the ability/right to ask to see the paperwork on a fellow competitor. Whether from the Class Official or from the Competitor/Car Owner. From that paperwork, I can see that the car is legal per the paperwork and dyno and get an idea on what equipment the car contains. I do not have the right nor ability to "send the car to the dyno" unless I follow the proper protest procedures as outlined in the NASA guidelines, but I can ask to see the paperwork.

 

I am not familiar with the NP01s at all. Therefore, I have no clue what "NP01 Spec" means nor do I care to learn. I don't know the spec tire. I don't know the spec engine hp (sealed or not). I do not know the transmission. And so on. The only "clue" I can have is by looking at the ST paperwork. This is very similar to a Spec Miata, Spec e30, or dyno-recert car competing in PT/TT. We know those cars are good by knowing that they are completing the same PT/TT paperwork we complete. We do not have to learn their spec series rules because we are familiar with the ST/PT series rules. When the Thunder Roadsters first started crossing over to ST3, we went through the exact same confusion. The helping factor was the ST paperwork and dyno that guided myself and the others through the legality of the cars. You should remember this confusion from my emails with you and everyone else after the Roebling event in April 2014 when one of them was questioned/protested.

 

You made the comment that you are "surprised when you guys show little faith.....". Yes, we the racers and customers and bill payers show little faith when we are fully unaware and something blindsides us by the NASA decision makers. The recent GTS debacle is a good example. Had this post or some other bulletin simply started with an explanation of the previous testing, the ST formula mathematics, and the reasons behind the decision, I am certain the news would have been received differently. I personally look forward to racing an NP01 in ST3. However, I know of no one in the Southeast or Mid-Atlantic that has one of these cars. And I know of even less people that know what the AIM data acquisition should be telling the officials when one does show up.

 

The ST racers should NOT have to learn the ruleset of another series when a competitor shows up to race in ST. Simply stated, simply understood. If the NASA decision makers cannot understand our desire for ALL competitors to complete the same paperwork that we have to complete, then this conversation is a moot point.

 

I will gladly discuss this in person if someone wants to call me. As usual, some of the decision makers will take my questioning as I am the only voice of concern and I am negative. Counter to that, I am speaking what MANY others are saying offline.

 

Kevin, I think that everyone is making a lot more out of this than there is. We are simply allowing these cars, with engines dyno tested and sealed by NASA's partner Elan, that are difficult to Dyno due to their configuration, to run without a pre-competition Dyno sheet, and with ADDITIONAL limitations that are not in the ST rules currently--such as using the 235 x 17 Toyo RR's. The vehicles are still required to comply with the same ST Adjusted Wt/HP Formula that all vehicles must comply with. The reason that the weight is 1800 lbs. is that is where the cutoff for the -2.0 Mod Factor for weight kicks in, and it would make them unable to get to the 10:1 for ST3.

 

Here is how the calculations work out for them:

1800 lbs / 169 Avg HP (none have actually been this high) = 10.65

Weight Mod Factor -0.3 = 10.35

Non-Production Mod Factor -0.4 = 9.95

Sequential Trans -0.6 = 9.35

235 DOT tires + 0.7 = 10.05

 

So, if any of them are less than 1800 lbs, its a DQ.

If we need to do a post-race Dyno, then those are the Mod Factors we will use. If they are not on the Spec 235 x 17 Toyos its a DQ. If they have modifications that are not permitted in the NP series its a DQ. This is not the same as TR or SM or any other series, because this IS a NASA specific vehicle, designed by NASA with Elan, with very detailed specifications. Dave Balingit will assist any ST Director that has any questions about one of these vehicles.

I don't have a problem with an ST Director requesting that the competitor submit this on the ST Car Classification Form, but this is it for all of them (unless we decide to make

competition adjustments in the future). I think that the big point is that we are placing limitations on these vehicles above and beyond the current ST Rules. Us allowing them to run (at least regionally) without a pre-competition Dynojet sheet is not the same as allowing an unknown vehicle from doing the same. All of these engines are built, dyno'd, and sealed by NASA's partner Elan. And, if we want to get picky, these vehicles without a Dynojet sheet, but with dyno'd and sealed engines and data acquistion, are much, much, much more likely to be compliant than a vehicle Dyno tested by a competitor, who later makes adjustments to tire pressures, engine maps, etc. and then competes.

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brkntrxn

Greg,

 

Thank you for the detailed post above. If what you shared had been included from the very beginning, then there probably would have been much less confusion and concern. That post helps give us the idea on how the cars should be configured for ST3 and we would know what to look for in terms of equipment and configuration.

 

I'll go work on my ST3 tune and more aero in expectation/hopes one shows up...... are cardboard canards functional????

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sperkins

Here is how the calculations work out for them:

1800 lbs / 169 Avg HP (none have actually been this high) = 10.65

Weight Mod Factor -0.3 = 10.35

Non-Production Mod Factor -0.4 = 9.95

Sequential Trans -0.6 = 9.35

235 DOT tires + 0.7 = 10.05

 

Each of them should be required to complete and submit the paperwork reflecting this. I don't think that's too much to ask since everyone else is required to do so.

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bpanther

Here is the official wording:

 

TECHNICAL BULLETIN 5-3-16

NASA NP01 in ST

 

Appendix A—Technical Bulletins, Approvals, Assessments for Specific Car Models

 

NP01 (ST3):

The NASA NP01 is only permitted to compete in ST3 as follows:

1) The Minimum Competition Weight must be equal to or greater than 1800 lbs.

2) The vehicle must be 100% compliant with all NP Series rules, including the specified Toyo 235 x 17 RR tires.

3) The vehicle may compete in regional competition without having chassis Dynamometer Dynojet pre-competition testing, but the driver/owner must still complete a pre-competition ST Car Classification Form.

4) Competition in a NASA Championship event requires pre-competition Dyno testing.

5) The vehicle is still subject to post-competition Dyno inspection, and must be compliant with the 10.0:1 limit of "Adjusted Weight/Power Ratio".

Modification Factors include -0.3 for weight, -0.4 for Non-Production, -0.6 for transmission, +0.7 for tires.

 

 

NP01 (ST1/ST2):

1) The NASA NP01 may compete in ST1 or ST2, but MUST assess the -2.0 Modification Factor for weight under 1800 lbs, REGARDLESS of the actual

Minimum Competition Weight. The vehicle is not restricted to NP "spec" modifications or tires.

2) If the vehicle has a NASA/Elan sealed engine, the vehicle may compete in regional competition without having chassis Dynamometer Dynojet pre-competition testing, but the driver/owner must still complete a pre-competition ST Car Classification Form.

3) Competition in a NASA Championship event requires pre-competition Dyno testing.

4) The vehicle is still subject to post-competition Dyno inspection, and must be compliant with the limit of "Adjusted Weight/Power Ratio" for its class.

 

_________________

Greg Greenbaum

National TT, PT, & ST Director

Nat. Medical Director

greg@nasa-tt.com

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kbrew8991

There may be some additional comfort gained by those unfamiliar with the NP01 cars if there is documentation on how the sealing process works and where they can be found on the car for quick inspection in the field.

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Greg G.
There may be some additional comfort gained by those unfamiliar with the NP01 cars if there is documentation on how the sealing process works and where they can be found on the car for quick inspection in the field.

Ken, Dave can answer that for us.

 

The last bit is that these cars are required to have data logging, and this data can be reviewed by NASA officials at any time.

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bpanther
There may be some additional comfort gained by those unfamiliar with the NP01 cars if there is documentation on how the sealing process works and where they can be found on the car for quick inspection in the field.

 

There are small tamper proof silver serialized caps over bolt heads applied in several locations. Front cover, oil pan and valve cover are the seal locations.

 

Our data logging consists of both the AiM data dash as well as the AEM ECU. The ECU also has a tamper proof sticker sealing it and the communication port is locked down with a key that only Elan has possession of.

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