Ideas for Street / Enthusiast Time Trial class(es)?

[hufflepuff]

I'd like to see a Street or Enthusiast class/series intended for truly street driven cars.

 

The goals of the rule structure would be:

- simple and inviting to get new folks into the sport (like those graduating from HPDE ladder)

- controlled costs

- fewer classes with a simple classing structure yielding large class sizes, or even a performance-index adjuster

 

Some ideas on how to promote these goals:

- Full interiors, no A/C delete (if factory equipped)

- 140+ TW tires

- Simpler structuring for suspension mods

- limited or no aero in lower classes

- basically, allow common engine / suspension / chassis mods while prohibiting expensive or invasive modifications

 

The controlled ruleset that would make it easy for newer folks, or folks like me who want to TT a nice comfortable car and doesn't want to spend boat loads on sticky tires or trailering a caged / gutted car, and would like to be able to drive to-and-from the track on one set of tires.

 

Just throwing the idea out there to see if there is interest, since we may be facing a TT restructuring in 2017 anyways.

[Greg G.]

We won't be facing this type of restructuring, for certain.

 

That's what we need, more dilution of our classes by adding in "street" classes, which is what TT already is for many drivers...

[hufflepuff]

We won't be facing this type of restructuring, for certain.

 

That's what we need, more dilution of our classes by adding in "street" classes, which is what TT already is for many drivers...

 

I see very few "street" cars in our local TT events. I would like to say the majority are gutted, highly modified, trailered, and on slicks. The TT ruleset makes it tough to compete with that.

 

There are situations where a vehicle will never make it near the class power:weight target because they can't make enough power with bolt-ons and can't even get to min weight without gutting. This is not very favorable for folks who don't want to destroy a car to compete.

 

Additionally, the folks winning TT are generally on Hoosiers. The points favor them over street tires, even though it's supposed to "equalize" things.

 

I think these trends indicate the rule structure is favoring highly modified cars and sticky tires.

 

If we're worried about dilution, a system based on actual power-weight could give full interior, under-powered cars can have a fighting chance. It could be that in the lower classes you limits on tires and have PWR modifiers for aero and suspension.

 

For example,

 

T5- PWR of 1:18 or higher, street tires, modifiers for aero and suspension

T4- PWR of 1:15 to 1:18, street tires, modifiers for aero and suspension

T3- PWR of 1:13 to 1:15, DOT tires, modifiers for aero and suspension

T2- PWR of 1:11 to 1:13, DOT tires

T1- PWR of 1:9-1:11, any tires

TU- unlimited

[Mike W.]

I think the fact that we're getting so few TT'ers signed up for nationals could indicate dissatisfaction with the current state of NASA TT. I would like to see us figure out what the issue(s) are and to address so we can see larger class sizes and more competition. Perhaps an online survey could be used to see where people want to go with the program.

This is just my opinion but I think splitting the National event into two separate events has caused the decrease in TT entries. Overall, there are probably more people competing when you combine the TT numbers from both East and West but at each individual "National" event the classes on average are smaller. Add to this that the TT "National" event is now basically just a normal weekend event (One practice session on Friday and 7 sessions between Saturday and Sunday), people are not going to spend the extra money when they can get more track time and competition at a regional event. The Great Lakes event at Mid Ohio (10 sessions total between Saturday and Sunday) a few weeks ago sold out TT several weeks in advance and had a good sized waiting list.

[427R]

I think the fact that we're getting so few TT'ers signed up for nationals could indicate dissatisfaction with the current state of NASA TT. I would like to see us figure out what the issue(s) are and to address so we can see larger class sizes and more competition. Perhaps an online survey could be used to see where people want to go with the program.

This is just my opinion but I think splitting the National event into two separate events has caused the decrease in TT entries. Overall, there are probably more people competing when you combine the TT numbers from both East and West but at each individual "National" event the classes on average are smaller. Add to this that the TT "National" event is now basically just a normal weekend event (One practice session on Friday and 7 sessions between Saturday and Sunday), people are not going to spend the extra money when they can get more track time and competition at a regional event. The Great Lakes event at Mid Ohio (10 sessions total between Saturday and Sunday) a few weeks ago sold out TT several weeks in advance and had a good sized waiting list.

Hear hear!!

[hufflepuff]

At nationals last year, there were 5 in my class including me. A couple of really fast guys, but overall I would've liked to see more competition. that was one of my reasons for not attending this year.

 

Perhaps a street car modifier or credit? If you have an active vehicle registration, full interior, stock glass, and 200TW street tires, you can get a points credit?

[Arca_ex]

So in your original post you say a goal is "fewer classes with a simple classing structure yielding large class sizes"...

 

Yet you suggest pretty much doubling the amount of TT classes. Are you even thinking about the words that you are typing?

 

This is a terrible idea. Guaranteed to lower class counts and create huge speed differentials on track by using 140+ treadware street tires...

[hufflepuff]

So in your original post you say a goal is "fewer classes with a simple classing structure yielding large class sizes"...

 

Yet you suggest pretty much doubling the amount of TT classes. Are you even thinking about the words that you are typing?

 

This is a terrible idea. Guaranteed to lower class counts and create huge speed differentials on track by using 140+ treadware street tires...

 

What do you think of the power:weight proposal listed later? If your car is overweight and underpowered, and you're using street tires, the end result is that you might end up in a class you can be competitive in. NASA may already be moving in this direction, hopefully, with ST6/5/4. But the real issue will be whether tires receive an appropriate power:weight modifier to allow street tires to be competitive.

 

Thoughts?

[Arca_ex]

So in your original post you say a goal is "fewer classes with a simple classing structure yielding large class sizes"...

 

Yet you suggest pretty much doubling the amount of TT classes. Are you even thinking about the words that you are typing?

 

This is a terrible idea. Guaranteed to lower class counts and create huge speed differentials on track by using 140+ treadware street tires...

 

What do you think of the power:weight proposal listed later? If your car is overweight and underpowered, and you're using street tires, the end result is that you might end up in a class you can be competitive in. NASA may already be moving in this direction, hopefully, with ST6/5/4. But the real issue will be whether tires receive an appropriate power:weight modifier to allow street tires to be competitive.

 

Thoughts?

 

Your classing structure is already close to what it's moving towards...

 

Street tires shouldn't be competitive, because there's no good way to do it.

 

If you give street tire cars enough power to be competitive, they will win at the bigger horsepower tracks, but lose at more technical courses. This sounds okay at first, until you realize that the competitive race cars will start buying two sets of tires on hand, street tires to win at big tracks and r-compound or slicks to win at technical tracks, then you're left in the same position you were in before, complaining about racecars.

 

Street cars can already be competitive in TT if you're willing to get on good tires and make a couple sacrifices in the NVH department, it's been done plenty of times before. The biggest thing I see here is that some people think they should be able to show up in a stock Corvette/Porsche/Mustang/what have you and win without any effort or money invested, and that will never be the case unless you make enough rules to drive the series into the ground.

[hufflepuff]

So in your original post you say a goal is "fewer classes with a simple classing structure yielding large class sizes"...

 

Yet you suggest pretty much doubling the amount of TT classes. Are you even thinking about the words that you are typing?

 

This is a terrible idea. Guaranteed to lower class counts and create huge speed differentials on track by using 140+ treadware street tires...

 

What do you think of the power:weight proposal listed later? If your car is overweight and underpowered, and you're using street tires, the end result is that you might end up in a class you can be competitive in. NASA may already be moving in this direction, hopefully, with ST6/5/4. But the real issue will be whether tires receive an appropriate power:weight modifier to allow street tires to be competitive.

 

Thoughts?

 

Your classing structure is already close to what it's moving towards...

 

Street tires shouldn't be competitive, because there's no good way to do it.

 

If you give street tire cars enough power to be competitive, they will win at the bigger horsepower tracks, but lose at more technical courses. This sounds okay at first, until you realize that the competitive race cars will start buying two sets of tires on hand, street tires to win at big tracks and r-compound or slicks to win at technical tracks, then you're left in the same position you were in before, complaining about racecars.

 

Street cars can already be competitive in TT if you're willing to get on good tires and make a couple sacrifices in the NVH department, it's been done plenty of times before. The biggest thing I see here is that some people think they should be able to show up in a stock Corvette/Porsche/Mustang/what have you and win without any effort or money invested, and that will never be the case unless you make enough rules to drive the series into the ground.

 

It shouldn't be able how much money or time you invest in a car; it should come down to driver skill. And it would be preferable to NOT make those NVH sacrifices on a daily driven car. I would be all for a street tire or a spec-class to equalize competition, but even classes like spec Miata can be very costly.

 

It SHOULD be that if we insert the best pro driver in the world to benchmark two cars, and both are efficiently using their allotted points, the two cars will turn the same lap time. The point is for two cars in the same class to have as close performance as possible, such that it is up to the driver who wins, not which cars has had more money spent on it.

 

I disagree that street tires should not be competitive. That's why some lesser series limit you to street tires, so it is still driver vs. driver and not car vs. car.

 

We wouldn't want to give cars on street tires more power; we'd want to allow them to run in a class it's competitive in, so again it's driver-vs-driver and not car-vs-car. If that means a TTD base class car on street tires that's both above weight and below power runs in TTE, and has similar acceleration and handling to TTE cars, then you have equalized competition.

[Arca_ex]

Well now it's pretty clear that you don't understand that simply modifying weight and power on a street tire vs. race tire car will not yield identical lap times at every track. Guess I'm done here lol.

[kbrew8991]

while true, there are horses-for-courses under the current ruleset(s) as well.

[Greg G.]

Guys, I consider this to be essentially a thread lacking value at this point. There is no reason to debate issues that we have no interest in. I am going to lock this one up, because I don't want any confusion by those reading later that this was something of actual consideration. We have our plans to decrease the number of classes, and increase the number of competitors in classes. None of these would involve starting new classes for "street" cars, because once you start modifying a vehicle, you can call it what you want, but it is a track car. We have plenty of highly modified cars that are legal on the streets still, but that doesn't mean that they are not expensive, highly modified, and would be complained about by those who want to run in minimally modified vehicles, yet somehow magically, be competitive at a National event. As well, the entire idea of "street tires" has become so blurred and ridiculous, that it makes me laugh. Treadwear ratings are a joke, left to the tire companies to name for themselves, with no testing or standards required by the DOT. The variance in performance and lap times between street tires is MUCH greater than that of the various R compound tires, making them difficult to class correctly unless done by individual tire (as they change every year).

 

As far as anyone who would not register and participate in their Championship event because the numbers on the preliminary list, or the numbers from last year were lower than you wanted, I will say that behavior is exactly what leads to lower numbers, and makes no sense. There are currently 7 listed in TTE for the Eastern States champs right now, and I know there may be one more late entry still. I wonder how many more there could have been if someone wasn't telling people that they aren't going because they think the numbers will be too low? I know there would be 8 with that extra person making those statements registering, instead of the opposite. Class sizes grow by drivers helping to grow the class, not by unreasonable attempts to make unmodified cars competitive. There are organizations that have chosen to have street classes, and that is great for them, but that is not the direction that we have ever chosen, because they always end up with the best factory designed street car winning, because mods are not permitted to make a less well designed vehicle "catch up".