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UPDATE ST4/TT4 and other for 2017


Greg G.

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Hope everyone had a happy holiday!

Also looking forward to the updated base classing car list for the lower classes. Thanks!

PT Rules were posted last week

 

Thanks Greg! I was looking for them in this thread.....

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Any update on this, My ChiZZLE is ready Fo niZZle and I've bought all the bits to put a air dam on the car and put the splitter on the ground.

We weren't able to do anything with it yet--couldn't get the response from our fluid dynamics engineer that we were looking for. We have posted v.11.3 of the ST Rules though, with that section revised, but it doesn't change anything fo yo chizzle o' nizzle.

 

So, here are a few questions for those interested:

1) What is the lowest possible ride height of the bottom of the unmodified OEM CR splitter/lip (so, with the car lowered as much as desired under the ST rules--not moving the top of the fender well, etc.)?

 

2) If you had a choice (taking money and work time out of the picture) of a lowered S2000 with the CR lip/splitter, or an S2000 with a custom (lowered) air dam with proper flat horizontal splitter (as in the ST Rules), but without the CR dive planes, which would you think has the better downforce to drag performance?

 

1) 3 inch's or so. I was able to clear parking stone with no issue with my CR lip and the front of the car was lowered to be about even between the tire and fender in the front. 12.5" hub to fender.

 

2) I'd bet that the Splitter/Airdamn is a way more effective method. especially if you can put the air damn and splitter almost to the ground.

 

For Q4, I'd say its fare if it open to all makes and models with special front like this. Not just the S2k or Nismo.

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It's pretty simple. Only BTM can take OEM aero mod. All Factory (must use factory) optional OEM front bumpers may be used but are not eligible for OEM AERO mod. So any front end that could be ordered above base trim model that's not a dealer install item can be used but has to take a aero mod. This allows everyone who ordered a porsche that thought the Base Trim bumper looked like crap and ordered a bumper from the next model up (S bumper vs non S) and the many other cars out there, Mini's can be ordered with JCW bumpers and "Aero" bumpers etc etc. To be able to run without taking a huge hit. Hell I think you can even order loads of different bumpers on your BMW's when you order them (M sport package comes with factory aero kit).

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I'm fine with that, but then don't allow a non-CR S2000 to put the CR spoiler and take the OEM Aero Mod.

The CR can't take it. It's not a Base Trim S2000. It's an optioned up S2000. So it doesn't get OEM aero mod. But the Base Trim can add and also not get the mod.

 

Look every car is going to have it's advantages and dissadvantages. Porsche's all get low, rearward weight distribution. I would happily take a Flat 6 at the middle or back of my car over some silly looking front bumper mod that adds a tiny bit of downforce. So S2000's get a tiny bit more front downforce then everyone else. Big deal, FRS's have an engine that keeps the CG several inches lower. Corvette's get a longer wheelbase so they are more stable and can put power down more easily etc etc. It is what it is. Pick your poison. I can tell you from 1st hand experience. A Porsche with the same power to weight ratio as my S2000 on the same tires with the same driver is a faster car, If I could afford one of the models that doesn't have an IMS I'd have it. And FRS with = power to weight is a faster car. So we are arguing over 3rd place here (hell I'll add a Lotus evora to this list, = power to weight I'd bet it will dust off an S2000).

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1) What is the lowest possible ride height of the bottom of the unmodified OEM CR splitter/lip?

 

I would say 3/3.5" it is the same height on the bottom as the OEM bumper so splitter height will be the same with or with out it

 

2) If you had a choice (taking money and work time out of the picture) of a lowered S2000 with the CR lip/splitter, or an S2000 with a custom (lowered) air dam with proper flat horizontal splitter (as in the ST Rules), but without the CR dive planes, which would you think has the better downforce to drag performance?

 

I think the flat airdam with splitter might make simiar downforce to splitter under the CR air dam. You have the Air dam shape and splitter making downforce but dont have the big flat surface for the splitter like the stock bumper/splitter combo would. I think they would both have ups and downs at different speeds.

 

3) Same question for the Nismo (which would seemingly be even more in favor of the air dam/splitter than the CR).

 

I think its similar to the S2k, the non flat surface like the OEM bumper may not see am much of a gain in downforce than a flat bumpered car

 

4) If you don't have an S2000, would you think it was fair if someone with an S2000 was able to use the CR lip/splitter, but was not permitted to make any other modifications to the fascia/splitter/air dam, and was not permitted to lower it (so S2000 ride height and the OEM lip dictated how low the splitter is, and not a custom air dam), compared to you using a custom lowered air dam and splitter combo?

 

Can't really speak for it since I own one but I think CR lip w/ spitter and not taking OEM factor

 

I'm fine with that, but then don't allow a non-CR S2000 to put the CR spoiler and take the OEM Aero Mod.

The CR can't take it. It's not a Base Trim S2000. It's an optioned up S2000. So it doesn't get OEM aero mod. But the Base Trim can add and also not get the mod.

 

I like the idea that the CR cant take the OE aero factor and am totally okay with that. Just that you can replace the wing with a bigger one and at a splitter under the CR lip.

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Nov 26 update

7.3.2 D 2)

ii)may not have canards/winglets molded into it.

 

could we get a specific definition of canard/winglet?

like size and shape?

 

as written this rule will all force all porsche 993 nasa participants to use the stock front bumper cover.

that would be similar to forcing all bmw e36 participants to use the base front bumper cover.

granted, 90% of porsche 993's are sitting in a garage being polished.

but there is at least one in nasa tt and there are more running pca events, and every one of them has swapped to the RS, Cup or EVO2 front bumper cover.

 

 

like the e36 base model front, the 993 front bumper cover is designed to allow air under the front of the car and escape out the sides between the wheels.

this is a normal 90's era design for fuel economy and cooling, fine for a street car but horrible on the track.

 

because the 911 front curves under, there is no place to install an air dam and impossible to install a splitter because the oil coolers dump air below the bumper.

of the available options the RS version looks to be illegal because the lip has a gap in the center.

the Cup is straight across the front but has folded up corners like wings.

the EVO2 and RS versions have a lip that angles up on the outside and could be called a canard/winglet to anyone not wanting to compete against a 993.

none of the options stick out beyond the nose or sides of the bumper cover and all pass the 2 inch plumb line rule.

I would say only the EVO2 version is as effective as the M3 version.

but all options could be considered illegal by this rule.

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This post above about the Porsche front ends is probably just the tip of the ice burg. There is a lot of focus on the S2000 CR but I’m sure there are several other items out there that will be considered illegal for the class but in general will have little effect on downforce. The results of this will be less cars in class because their car is illegal, disgruntled racers spending money and time to change front ends with no noticeable performance difference, or racers showing up to race and getting DQ’d for a little curved shape on the bumper… gets upset… leaves NASA.

 

This could all be avoided with a change to the rules that would allow the small stuff so to speak and rule out any exaggerated front aero which I’m assuming is the intent of the rule. We all just want to race and have fun and I want the class to be welcoming to as many cars as possible. Ideally would be to use the ST3 aero rules. Let’s go race and have fun and not nit picking the small stuff.

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In rule 7.3.2.C.2 it states “Relocation of suspension mounting points is not permitted in ST4”. Can you elaborate on this or be more specific on your definition of “suspension”. I assume this is to disallow relocation of control arms and such. What about pintop shocks with aftermarket tophats that move the pivot point of the shock or even converting pintop shocks to a rod end. Also, what about extended lower ball joints to gain additional camber? Technically these are part of the suspension and the mounting points have been relocated but I really hope this is allowed otherwise there will be a lot of illegal cars out there.

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1) What is the lowest possible ride height of the bottom of the unmodified OEM CR splitter/lip?

 

I would say 3/3.5" it is the same height on the bottom as the OEM bumper so splitter height will be the same with or with out it

 

2) If you had a choice (taking money and work time out of the picture) of a lowered S2000 with the CR lip/splitter, or an S2000 with a custom (lowered) air dam with proper flat horizontal splitter (as in the ST Rules), but without the CR dive planes, which would you think has the better downforce to drag performance?

 

I think the flat airdam with splitter might make simiar downforce to splitter under the CR air dam. You have the Air dam shape and splitter making downforce but dont have the big flat surface for the splitter like the stock bumper/splitter combo would. I think they would both have ups and downs at different speeds.

 

3) Same question for the Nismo (which would seemingly be even more in favor of the air dam/splitter than the CR).

 

I think its similar to the S2k, the non flat surface like the OEM bumper may not see am much of a gain in downforce than a flat bumpered car

 

4) If you don't have an S2000, would you think it was fair if someone with an S2000 was able to use the CR lip/splitter, but was not permitted to make any other modifications to the fascia/splitter/air dam, and was not permitted to lower it (so S2000 ride height and the OEM lip dictated how low the splitter is, and not a custom air dam), compared to you using a custom lowered air dam and splitter combo?

 

Can't really speak for it since I own one but I think CR lip w/ spitter and not taking OEM factor

 

I'm fine with that, but then don't allow a non-CR S2000 to put the CR spoiler and take the OEM Aero Mod.

The CR can't take it. It's not a Base Trim S2000. It's an optioned up S2000. So it doesn't get OEM aero mod. But the Base Trim can add and also not get the mod.

 

I like the idea that the CR cant take the OE aero factor and am totally okay with that. Just that you can replace the wing with a bigger one and at a splitter under the CR lip.

 

 

The man in red speaks the truth

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As an S2000 owner that competed in TTB and planning on competing in ST4 next year, I have specific clarification questions regarding rules for ST4:

 

It appears that only OEM and OEM-like hardtops are allowed, and that other hardtops like Mugen or Spoon are specifically not allowed at all in ST4?

 

It also appears that you can flare, roll, and even ventilate front fenders, but you cannot replace them with aftermarket fiberglass or carbon fiber fenders (such as Downforce fenders) that have extra clearance for running wider wheels/tires?

 

The way the rules are written (7.3.2.D.2.e.iii), it appears that you can actually have an airfoil, deflector, dive plane, or vortex generator onto the bumper as long as it does not extend 2" or more past the outline of the bumper. But it contradicts (ii) that says it cannot have canards/winglets molded into it?

 

The way the front aero rules are written, it is hard to determine which aftermarket bumpers will actually be legal. Can I specifically ask if these two commonly used bumpers will be legal in ST4? These bumpers are used in almost all S2000's that compete in my region in TTB/TT4.

 

image_proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Faprperformance.com%2Fimages%2Fproducts%2FFFA-929006.jpg&width=500&height=500&auth=73e3b8f3cf2e6783aa657c4163c2f592

APR Performance Bumper - Basically the same as AP2 bumper with an integrated lip

 

voltex_street_kit_s2000_425x319.jpg

Voltex Street Front Bumper

 

I am assuming the Voltex Race Front Bumper would not be legal in ST4, as the integrated splitter is not flat, and actually has a 3-dimensional shape, with a curved lip toward the middle, and raised edges?

VL-SB-R_07.jpg

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This post above about the Porsche front ends is probably just the tip of the ice burg. There is a lot of focus on the S2000 CR but I’m sure there are several other items out there that will be considered illegal for the class but in general will have little effect on downforce. The results of this will be less cars in class because their car is illegal, disgruntled racers spending money and time to change front ends with no noticeable performance difference, or racers showing up to race and getting DQ’d for a little curved shape on the bumper… gets upset… leaves NASA.

 

the problem is vague language.

everyone knows what a canard/winglet is, if they don't a simple word/image search will help.

but canard/winglet molded into bumper cover? that is going to be whatever anyone wants it to be.

if the m3 hadn't been mentioned and exempted from the rules I would say the bottom lip that extends out in front of the tires is a winglet. its molded, sticks out, and is shaped like a little wing.

the area in front of the fog lights could be considered a short but very wide canard.

without a specific definition all we can do is guess or stand around on grid arguing.

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I like the idea that the CR cant take the OE aero factor and am totally okay with that. Just that you can replace the wing with a bigger one and at a splitter under the CR lip.

There's a little confusion on this. When I wrote, "CR lip/splitter", I was speaking to the CR lip/splitter/dive plane single molded piece, not adding another splitter to the bottom of the CR lip.

 

Anyway, we are still not getting the info we requested from the experts, so no progress on this anyway so far.

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Nov 26 update

7.3.2 D 2)

ii)may not have canards/winglets molded into it.

 

could we get a specific definition of canard/winglet?

like size and shape?

 

No. It was decided by the Exec's. that we would not specify size/angle's of attack, shape. However, without photos, the rest of your post is difficult to follow, and likely not correct.

A canard and winglet are essentially the same thing. If you want to see a thousand of them, Google "race car canard", and look at the images.

 

The reason that we added the wording about molding a canard/winglet into an aftermarket (or modified) fascia, is that we needed to make it crystal clear that you cannot add, attach, or even develop an aftermarket plastic fascia from a mold that has canards/winglets. This does not preclude having an airfoil, deflector, dive plane, or vortex generator molded into/onto the bumper as long as it does not extend 2" or more past the outline of the bumper--as many of the OEM and aftermarket fascia's have.

 

So, for example, the S2000 CR fascia has "dive planes" built and molded into it. They are not winglets or canards (no possible air flow under, just a dive plane that also functions as a vortex generator down the side of the vehicle). However, it extends greater than 2", making it a problem--hence, the possible need for a chisel and nizzle (still to be determined as above).

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This could all be avoided with a change to the rules that would allow the small stuff so to speak and rule out any exaggerated front aero which I’m assuming is the intent of the rule.... Ideally would be to use the ST3 aero rules. Let’s go race and have fun and not nit picking the small stuff.

I guess you haven't seen some of the front end aero mods on ST3 cars--definitely "exaggerated", expensive, with a potential money pit that could be spent on development.

We wrote exactly what you state---"allow the small stuff". In this case 2" past the outline of the fascia, but no canards/winglets.

 

Here is a good example of what the ST4 rules allow, and would be the expected choice for modification--still "Super Touring" but not "Super Crazy":

 

AQHak9rl.jpg

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As an S2000 owner that competed in TTB and planning on competing in ST4 next year, I have specific clarification questions regarding rules for ST4:

 

It appears that only OEM and OEM-like hardtops are allowed, and that other hardtops like Mugen or Spoon are specifically not allowed at all in ST4?

 

It also appears that you can flare, roll, and even ventilate front fenders, but you cannot replace them with aftermarket fiberglass or carbon fiber fenders (such as Downforce fenders) that have extra clearance for running wider wheels/tires?

 

The way the rules are written (7.3.2.D.2.e.iii), it appears that you can actually have an airfoil, deflector, dive plane, or vortex generator onto the bumper as long as it does not extend 2" or more past the outline of the bumper. But it contradicts (ii) that says it cannot have canards/winglets molded into it?

 

The way the front aero rules are written, it is hard to determine which aftermarket bumpers will actually be legal. Can I specifically ask if these two commonly used bumpers will be legal in ST4? These bumpers are used in almost all S2000's that compete in my region in TTB/TT4.

 

 

APR Performance Bumper - Basically the same as AP2 bumper with an integrated lip

 

 

I am assuming the Voltex Race Front Bumper would not be legal in ST4, as the integrated splitter is not flat, and actually has a 3-dimensional shape, with a curved lip toward the middle, and raised edges?

 

Production Vehicle Body Modifications:

Modification of the OEM roof line/shape and/or

windshield/frame removal = -0.3

 

h) Flared and/or rolled fenders

It does not state that you can ventilate fenders in ST4.

If the aftermarket fender has different lines/aero properties, then it is not permitted. Tires are limited to 275mm to help prevent issues with the need for widebody kits.

 

The three photos all appear to have diveplanes extending more than 2" past the fascia, right? So....

 

BTW, I guess all of the competitors with these were taking PTB/TTB points for G.1 +3, G.2 +3, and G.3 +2, right? Seems like 8 points that would have been better used elsewhere....especially with the price tags of these things compared to either what I posted in the photo above for +6 points, or just a +3 point splitter.

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Greg -

 

Can you clarify the wording of fending flaring as applied to ST4?

 

Are fender flares that would bolt, rivet, glue onto an existing OEM fender allowed?

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With the tire restriction and mods in place what is the benefit of a flare ban? E46's can easily run 275's without flares. An e36 requires a decent amount of "caressing" to even try to run 245's. Even then there's still some tire rub. So why ban an e36 from running flares to enable it to easily run a 245 or a 275 tire which is allowed by class rules? If an e46 adds flares and still runs a 275 tire why does anyone care?

 

A car that would likely be a good fit in ST4 is an e36 with an S54 swap. (S52 cars will have difficulty making the ratio). Many of the swap cars have flares already. And I'm guessing the ban would also move to TT4 which leaves even more to rmer TTB cars without a class in TT.

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And I'm guessing the ban would also move to TT4 which leaves even more to rmer TTB cars without a class in TT.

 

It doesn't leave them without a class. That's a little sensational. It does force them to make some decisions on the build of their car and where to class it.

 

At the end of the day, there are going to be cars today which will have to make some build decisions as to where to run next year. ST4/TT4 is not intended to be PTB/TTB. Most cars will likely need to make changes to fit if they were running in PTB/TTB previously and want to run in ST4/TT4. I'm in the same boat, but is that a bad thing if the changes can make everything more competitive?

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With the tire restriction and mods in place what is the benefit of a flare ban? E46's can easily run 275's without flares. An e36 requires a decent amount of "caressing" to even try to run 245's. Even then there's still some tire rub. So why ban an e36 from running flares to enable it to easily run a 245 or a 275 tire which is allowed by class rules? If an e46 adds flares and still runs a 275 tire why does anyone care?

 

A car that would likely be a good fit in ST4 is an e36 with an S54 swap. (S52 cars will have difficulty making the ratio). Many of the swap cars have flares already. And I'm guessing the ban would also move to TT4 which leaves even more to rmer TTB cars without a class in TT.

 

There is no fender flare/flaring ban in ST4. Sorry to alarm everyone with my question. I had read too much into other comments regarding aftermarket fenders (for example widebody fenders with venting etc) which are not allowed. Fender flares (bolt on, etc) are allowed. Carry on.

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With the tire restriction and mods in place what is the benefit of a flare ban? E46's can easily run 275's without flares. An e36 requires a decent amount of "caressing" to even try to run 245's. Even then there's still some tire rub. So why ban an e36 from running flares to enable it to easily run a 245 or a 275 tire which is allowed by class rules? If an e46 adds flares and still runs a 275 tire why does anyone care?

 

A car that would likely be a good fit in ST4 is an e36 with an S54 swap. (S52 cars will have difficulty making the ratio). Many of the swap cars have flares already. And I'm guessing the ban would also move to TT4 which leaves even more to rmer TTB cars without a class in TT.

 

There is no fender flare/flaring ban in ST4. Sorry to alarm everyone with my question. I had read too much into other comments regarding aftermarket fenders (for example widebody fenders with venting etc) which are not allowed. Fender flares (bolt on, etc) are allowed. Carry on.

 

No flares in ST4 would of been a big pain in the ass and would of increased unnecessary spending for many vehicles. Glad it's not a thing.

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Greg -

 

Can you clarify the wording of fending flaring as applied to ST4?

 

Are fender flares that would bolt, rivet, glue onto an existing OEM fender allowed?

Yes

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