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UPDATE ST4/TT4 and other for 2017


Greg G.

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updated 2)b) 2nd paragraph

Any item (excluding the permitted flat, horizontal splitter in d.) that is attached or

molded into the fascia that functions as an airfoil or deflector (such as a canard,

winglet, vortex generator) and extends 2" or more past the outline of the immediate

surrounding fascia is prohibited. A plumb line run across the entire surface of the

front fascia and bumper shall not have any such item that extends 2” past the line

when viewed from above.

 

does the 2nd sentence the describe a method for measuring the rule of the 1st sentence?

 

or are these two different but associated rules?

 

if two rules, how should "outline of the immediate surrounding fascia" be defined?

for example, way back on page 26 the picture of the m3 front fascia.

what would be the immediate surrounding fascia of the intake areas on the bottom of that bumper cover?

let's say the 2nd rectangle from the outside(brake duct?) has 3 inches of material from the bottom inside edge to the outside forward lip.

would that be considered 2 inches outside the immediate surrounding fascia?

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Greg,

 

The way I read the rules, the NASA NP01 is only allowed in ST2 and only in ST2 in Spec NP01 trim. Is this the case?

 

 

-Kevin

Hi Kevin, no the NPO1 can also run in ST1 or ST2 using the modification factor for prototypes.

We think that the -3.2 modification factor in ST2 is enough,

Along with the modification factors for transmission and weight.

Of course, these are always subject to change if necessary.

 

Makes sense. It is just the way the NP01 is called out in the last section made me think it was limited to ST2.

 

So no ST3 at all, right?

 

 

 

Correct, no sports racers, prototypes, monocoque purpose built race cars in ST3 or ST4, unless specifically listed in Section 7.5 (RSR, SRF, TR)

 

 

FYI- It would not let me Quote all three quotes for some reason. Gregs answer is above, yet we have a Technical Bulletin suggesting otherwise.

 

The NP01 IS allowed in ST3. Is this changing in 2017? If so why?

 

TECHNICAL BULLETIN 5-3-16

NASA NP01 in ST

 

Appendix A—Technical Bulletins, Approvals, Assessments for Specific Car Models

 

NP01 (ST3):

The NASA NP01 is only permitted to compete in ST3 as follows:

1) The Minimum Competition Weight must be equal to or greater than 1800 lbs.

2) The vehicle must be 100% compliant with all NP Series rules, including the specified Toyo 235 x 17 RR tires.

3) The vehicle may compete in regional competition without having chassis Dynamometer Dynojet pre-competition testing, but the driver/owner must still complete a pre-competition ST Car Classification Form.

4) Competition in a NASA Championship event requires pre-competition Dyno testing.

5) The vehicle is still subject to post-competition Dyno inspection, and must be compliant with the 10.0:1 limit of "Adjusted Weight/Power Ratio".

Modification Factors include -0.3 for weight, -0.4 for Non-Production, -0.6 for transmission, +0.7 for tires.

 

 

NP01 (ST1/ST2):

1) The NASA NP01 may compete in ST1 or ST2, but MUST assess the -2.0 Modification Factor for weight under 1800 lbs, REGARDLESS of the actual

Minimum Competition Weight. The vehicle is not restricted to NP "spec" modifications or tires.

2) If the vehicle has a NASA/Elan sealed engine, the vehicle may compete in regional competition without having chassis Dynamometer Dynojet pre-competition testing, but the driver/owner must still complete a pre-competition ST Car Classification Form.

3) Competition in a NASA Championship event requires pre-competition Dyno testing.

4) The vehicle is still subject to post-competition Dyno inspection, and must be compliant with the limit of "Adjusted Weight/Power Ratio" for its class.

 

_________________

Greg Greenbaum

National TT, PT, & ST Director

Nat. Medical Director

[email protected]

 

http://nasaprototype.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Generic-NP01-ST3-Classification-Form-2016.pdf

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Tires:

6) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires: Toyo Proxes RR, Hankook TD

Pirelli Trofeo R +5

7) The following DOT-approved tires and those R-compound tires with a UTQG treadwear

rating over 40: BFG Rival S, Bridgestone RE071-R, Maxxis RC-1 (examples: Kumho V700,

Kumho V720, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup & MPS Cup 2, Nitto NT01, Pirelli PZero Corsa,

Toyo R888, Toyo RA-1, Yokahama A048, etc.) +4

 

[/color]

 

No change to tires above number 6 (Hoosiers)?

Correct

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D) ST4 and ST3 Production Vehicle Aerodynamics

1) “OEM Aero” Modification Factor:

 

ST4 and ST3 Production vehicles that maintain the unmodified base trim model body

lines, do not have non-OEM aerodynamic aides or modifications, and do not have a rear

wing or rear spoiler may assess the Modification Factor for “OEM Aero” in calculating

the “Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio”.

 

The use of the word 'and' here is a bit misleading. Are we ignoring this statement for true OEM BTM wing models? For example Evo/STI/Older 911/etc. Or do those people have to 'remove' their wings to qualify (and leave gaping holes behind). Or are you considering these in your "exemption" list method instead?

No, we are not ignoring it. There are no wings or spoilers permitted for any vehicle taking the OEM Aero Mod Factor. It is meant for vehicles without aero devices. So, yes, if the car is compliant with the wing taken off, it can use the Mod Factor. (Gaping, really? )

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Can you please elaborate on which specific "ST4 formula" you are referring to? I understand avg hp vs peak, but what is 'ST4 formula' referring to? Thanks!

Does this mean that you adjust for tire width, weight, aero then still need to take points for those too to stay under the 19 to stay in class?

 

It refers to the ST4 Formula for Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio. So, the ST formula, with the specific Mod Factors that apply to ST4. It will be in the Appendix of the PT Rules.

 

It means that the car is first classed using base class and Modification points, as usual. It is then checked against the Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio listed for the class to ensure

final compliance (as usual). The new aspect is that instead of using the PT formula for Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio (different weight tables and Mod Factors than ST and still uses Max HP), for PTC/TTC only, in 2017, we will be using the ST4 formula for Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio, AND using Avg HP.

 

Basically, PTC/TTC is a hybrid class for '17. We have done this to ensure that all of the cars that should be in ST4 in '17 ARE IN ST4 in '17 (or are detuned/ballasted for PTC/TTC). The reality is that many of the current PTC/TTC cars are already compliant with the 14.50:1 ST4 Ratio, but some are much closer to 12:1 and they should be in ST4/TT4.

 

We did not change PTD/PTE/PTF ratios for '17, because we wanted to leave those rules alone as much as possible as we prepare for the changes planned in '18 to complete the move to Dyno based classing.

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My biggest issue is the feeling of lack on consistency. If you owned a CR previously it was considered a different model and you were not allowed to remove the CR items to class the car as regular AP2 BTM S2000 even if you removed the CR parts or took points for the things that you left like maybe the wing. Even when you came right down to it a CR would be replacing almost everything that made it one anyways but now with a points handicap. Now you are saying that anyone that infact owns a actual CR, VINs all over it and all but didnt just stick the factory parts on their car, has to run the car as a BTM car? What happened to pages of talk about "build a better mouse trap"? What about the guys in Honda Challenge that aren't CR's that are running them with spiltters under them now? I mean we are already going to have added cost of doing a K series in our cars to get close to the average HP if you really want to be competitive and you are saying that TT5 will exclude certain cars such as the S2000 so it doesn't really have a home elsewhere.

First, you are talking about the PT series versus the ST series, so there is no consistency to begin with. Second, the reason that we didn't permit the CR to be down-classed as a BTM was that it had some modifications touted by Honda that were impossible to remove, like the upgraded chassis stiffening, foam injection, and I think a few others, etc. So, we didnt' try. Third, we are not saying that you have to run the car as BTM at all. The rules are stating that you cannot run a CR front lip with the dive planes. If you are talking about getting the added benefit of the OEM Aero Mod Factor, then yes, it would have to be run as BTM.

 

I don't know if this car will be in TT5 or not yet. TT5 and TT6 will both have vehicle specific Modification Factors (a big table, like in PT currently, but not base classes). So, if it is permitted, it will have a decent sized Mod Factor associated with it, as would similar vehicles.

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Greg, are the fender flares included in the vehicle width measurement or is it the width as stated by the manufacturer?

I assume you are talking about the rear wing. "Body width" would be the vehicle itself, not aftermarket fender flares (or mirrors, etc.). If the fender is the

widest part of the OEM body, then that would be the standard.

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updated 2)b) 2nd paragraph

Any item (excluding the permitted flat, horizontal splitter in d.) that is attached or

molded into the fascia that functions as an airfoil or deflector (such as a canard,

winglet, vortex generator) and extends 2" or more past the outline of the immediate

surrounding fascia is prohibited. A plumb line run across the entire surface of the

front fascia and bumper shall not have any such item that extends 2” past the line

when viewed from above.

 

does the 2nd sentence the describe a method for measuring the rule of the 1st sentence?

 

or are these two different but associated rules?

 

if two rules, how should "outline of the immediate surrounding fascia" be defined?

for example, way back on page 26 the picture of the m3 front fascia.

what would be the immediate surrounding fascia of the intake areas on the bottom of that bumper cover?

let's say the 2nd rectangle from the outside(brake duct?) has 3 inches of material from the bottom inside edge to the outside forward lip.

would that be considered 2 inches outside the immediate surrounding fascia?

The second sentence describes the method for measuring the rule of the first sentence (so describing parts that function as airfoils/deflectors).

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Regarding the NP01 and sports racers

Gregs answer is above, yet we have a Technical Bulletin suggesting otherwise.

Is this changing in 2017? If so why?

 

The Technical Bulletin (as are all TB's), are by definition in the rules additions to the current year rule set. So, the TB's in '16 regarding the NP01 applied to the '16 Rules and season. We now have '17 Rules published, and all TB's that were continued are in the '17 rules. All that were changed or deleted are also either in the '17 rules with the changes or were not put in the '17 rules.

 

In this case, the NP01, along with all other sports racers other than a few "lower level" racers, like the SRF, RSR, TR, are not permitted in ST3 or ST4.

The NP01 in spec trim, is specifically permitted in ST2/TT2, at the spec weight, on the spec tires, etc., without taking the -3.4 Mod Factor for Sports Racers--in Appendix A. Adjustments may be made to this classing as needed to help ensure the cars are competitive, but not an "overdog".

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Can you please elaborate on which specific "ST4 formula" you are referring to? I understand avg hp vs peak, but what is 'ST4 formula' referring to? Thanks!

Does this mean that you adjust for tire width, weight, aero then still need to take points for those too to stay under the 19 to stay in class?

 

It refers to the ST4 Formula for Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio. So, the ST formula, with the specific Mod Factors that apply to ST4. It will be in the Appendix of the PT Rules.

 

It means that the car is first classed using base class and Modification points, as usual. It is then checked against the Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio listed for the class to ensure

final compliance (as usual). The new aspect is that instead of using the PT formula for Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio (different weight tables and Mod Factors than ST and still uses Max HP), for PTC/TTC only, in 2017, we will be using the ST4 formula for Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio, AND using Avg HP.

 

Basically, PTC/TTC is a hybrid class for '17. We have done this to ensure that all of the cars that should be in ST4 in '17 ARE IN ST4 in '17 (or are detuned/ballasted for PTC/TTC). The reality is that many of the current PTC/TTC cars are already compliant with the 14.50:1 ST4 Ratio, but some are much closer to 12:1 and they should be in ST4/TT4.

 

We did not change PTD/PTE/PTF ratios for '17, because we wanted to leave those rules alone as much as possible as we prepare for the changes planned in '18 to complete the move to Dyno based classing.

 

First thank you for the explanation. That means I am at 14.3x:1 currently and only need to add 32 lbs of ballast to be at 14.5:1 and stay in TTC. I heard something abut s2000s not being allowed in TTC(in 2017)/TT5(in 2018). I hope this is not the case as that is the class I plan to run!!! I would have to drop an insane amount of weight to get to TT4 p/w ratio.... Thanks!

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My biggest issue is the feeling of lack on consistency. If you owned a CR previously it was considered a different model and you were not allowed to remove the CR items to class the car as regular AP2 BTM S2000 even if you removed the CR parts or took points for the things that you left like maybe the wing. Even when you came right down to it a CR would be replacing almost everything that made it one anyways but now with a points handicap. Now you are saying that anyone that infact owns a actual CR, VINs all over it and all but didnt just stick the factory parts on their car, has to run the car as a BTM car? What happened to pages of talk about "build a better mouse trap"? What about the guys in Honda Challenge that aren't CR's that are running them with spiltters under them now? I mean we are already going to have added cost of doing a K series in our cars to get close to the average HP if you really want to be competitive and you are saying that TT5 will exclude certain cars such as the S2000 so it doesn't really have a home elsewhere.

First, you are talking about the PT series versus the ST series, so there is no consistency to begin with. Second, the reason that we didn't permit the CR to be down-classed as a BTM was that it had some modifications touted by Honda that were impossible to remove, like the upgraded chassis stiffening, foam injection, and I think a few others, etc. So, we didnt' try. Third, we are not saying that you have to run the car as BTM at all. The rules are stating that you cannot run a CR front lip with the dive planes. If you are talking about getting the added benefit of the OEM Aero Mod Factor, then yes, it would have to be run as BTM.

 

I don't know if this car will be in TT5 or not yet. TT5 and TT6 will both have vehicle specific Modification Factors (a big table, like in PT currently, but not base classes). So, if it is permitted, it will have a decent sized Mod Factor associated with it, as would similar vehicles.

 

Did I read that right, the CR lip just won't count as OEM aero. I can still leave it on the car and run TT4 I just can't take OEM aero (which I'm not anyway)? I glued mine on and Saturday was gonna take a chizzle and hammer to the front bumper and see what it looked like after I'm done. I'd much prefer to just leave it.

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No, the CR lip is not permitted. But hold on the chisel for a few more days,

I'm working on something that might work.

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No, the CR lip is not permitted. But hold on the chisel for a few more days,

I'm working on something that might work.

 

Well this is exciting.

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It's called learning to spell with Phonics then not proof reading before hitting submit.

 

 

Why TF did you glue on your CR lip?

 

Cause my OE bumper was warped from many years of racing and hitting cones so when I put the CR lip on it fit like crap. To fill a bunch of the gaps I went to home depot and bought the strongest adhesive they had and used that, then filled in the back side with expanding foam to sure it up. It's on there solid. Like a better idea to start with a new bumper rather then remove it.

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Hope everyone had a happy holiday!

Also looking forward to the updated base classing car list for the lower classes. Thanks!

PT Rules were posted last week

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Any update on this, My ChiZZLE is ready Fo niZZle and I've bought all the bits to put a air dam on the car and put the splitter on the ground.

We weren't able to do anything with it yet--couldn't get the response from our fluid dynamics engineer that we were looking for. We have posted v.11.3 of the ST Rules though, with that section revised, but it doesn't change anything fo yo chizzle o' nizzle.

 

So, here are a few questions for those interested:

1) What is the lowest possible ride height of the bottom of the unmodified OEM CR splitter/lip (so, with the car lowered as much as desired under the ST rules--not moving the top of the fender well, etc.)?

 

2) If you had a choice (taking money and work time out of the picture) of a lowered S2000 with the CR lip/splitter, or an S2000 with a custom (lowered) air dam with proper flat horizontal splitter (as in the ST Rules), but without the CR dive planes, which would you think has the better downforce to drag performance?

 

3) Same question for the Nismo (which would seemingly be even more in favor of the air dam/splitter than the CR).

 

4) If you don't have an S2000, would you think it was fair if someone with an S2000 was able to use the CR lip/splitter, but was not permitted to make any other modifications to the fascia/splitter/air dam, and was not permitted to lower it (so S2000 ride height and the OEM lip dictated how low the splitter is, and not a custom air dam), compared to you using a custom lowered air dam and splitter combo?

 

 

Our "gut" answer is that depending on how low the car can go with the OEM CR lip, it is probably a fair trade off, but so far, we have not been given the actual scientific answer.

The consideration would be just that--to add the CR lip and Nismo to Appendix B in a different section (not to be used for the OEM Aero Mod Factor--that ship has sailed), but permitted if there are no other front end Aero mods.

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Regarding question 4: I don't think it's fair to allow S2000's to run a special edition front spoiler as if it were BTM. You don't allow E36's to run the 1995 M3 LTW adjustable splitter and dam which were OEM for that model but not other M3's.

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