Balroks Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 If not complete, can we get an estimate of when we might expect the rules or perhaps a rough draft outlining what still needs to be decided and what has been decided? He posted that a few pages back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jon B. Posted October 22, 2016 Members Share Posted October 22, 2016 If not complete, can we get an estimate of when we might expect the rules or perhaps a rough draft outlining what still needs to be decided and what has been decided? He posted that a few pages back. Sort of. Over a month ago some information was given. No estimate of when complete rules might be out. The big unknowns are what the mod factors will be in ST4 vs ST3 for tires, aero, etc. "ST4/TT4 will use the current ST Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio Formula with some modifications to the Mod Factors (like we did with ST3/TT3)" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phat ralph Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Are Thunder Roadster's able to run in ST4? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiePig Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 If not complete, can we get an estimate of when we might expect the rules or perhaps a rough draft outlining what still needs to be decided and what has been decided? He posted that a few pages back. Cant build a car off a brief high level guess/overview of a unfinished rule set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balroks Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 The question was specifically asking for "close to" not the finished product. You already have 12:1, likely a 275 and no crazy aero permitted so that should be 85% of the hard work minus the final tune and if you'll be pinched for running a new A every race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrsideways Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 A final Date for a rule set release would be handy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer Rick Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 I think it should be shortly! I know Greg is working hard on getting everything finalized! Ricky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowmants Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 I think it should be shortly! I know Greg is working hard on getting everything finalized! Ricky Excellent! Please Greg do 14:1 w/p for TTC! Sincerely yours, "An S2000 Tweener" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmmotorsports Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Anyone know if tube chassis are allowed in ST4? And no, not a Legends or TR. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flier129 Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 Looks like they're post. https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/document/document/4272/ST_Rules_2017--v11.1--10-31-16.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balroks Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) So: Aerodynamic devices and/or modifications may not protrude more than six (6”) inches from the vertical plane from the ground to the widest part of the right and left sides of the vehicle’s body. Front wing/spoiler/foil/splitter may not protrude more than 12 inches in front of the outermost edge of the front bodywork/fascia, and may not be higher than the lowest part of the vehicle’s hood. Does this translate to a "splitter" can't go past 6" on the sides and 12" in the front? (for st3) Edited November 2, 2016 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowmants Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 2) ST4 Aerodynamic Modification Allowances: Aerodynamic parts/devices/aides shall be limited in ST4 to the following: a) All of the items listed above in section 7.3.2.D.1) “OEM Aero” Modification Factor. b) Modified or replaced front fascia without canards/winglets or other aspects that function as canards/winglets to provide a direct downward force. c) Vertical front air dam (5o tolerance) that follows the outermost edge of the front and side bodywork/fascia. d) Single flat, horizontal front splitter that protrudes no greater than 4” from the vehicle. e) Single rear wing or spoiler that does not exceed a height of 8” above the roof line, or width greater than the vehicle’s body width, or end plates greater than 12” (12 inches). f) Cutting/removal of the rear bumper cover/fascia where it does not cover the rear frame/bumper cross beam. So am I understanding this correctly that for ST4/TT4 you can still apply the +.4 OEM Aero factor and have any or all of the above modifications? I just want to be sure I am reading it correctly. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon819 Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 So: Aerodynamic devices and/or modifications may not protrude more than six (6”) inches from the vertical plane from the ground to the widest part of the right and left sides of the vehicle’s body. Front wing/spoiler/foil/splitter may not protrude more than 12 inches in front of the outermost edge of the front bodywork/fascia, and may not be higher than the lowest part of the vehicle’s hood. Does this translate to a "splitter" can't go past 6" on the sides and 12" in the front? (for st3) I think that is correct but just make sure you start measuring on "the widest part of the right and left sides of the vehicle's body" which will probably be the rear fenders of your car so your splitter will exceed 6" in measured length as I would bet where you are mounting the splitter isn't the widest part of the side of your car. Hope that makes sense. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon819 Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 2) ST4 Aerodynamic Modification Allowances:Aerodynamic parts/devices/aides shall be limited in ST4 to the following: a) All of the items listed above in section 7.3.2.D.1) “OEM Aero” Modification Factor. b) Modified or replaced front fascia without canards/winglets or other aspects that function as canards/winglets to provide a direct downward force. c) Vertical front air dam (5o tolerance) that follows the outermost edge of the front and side bodywork/fascia. d) Single flat, horizontal front splitter that protrudes no greater than 4” from the vehicle. e) Single rear wing or spoiler that does not exceed a height of 8” above the roof line, or width greater than the vehicle’s body width, or end plates greater than 12” (12 inches). f) Cutting/removal of the rear bumper cover/fascia where it does not cover the rear frame/bumper cross beam. So am I understanding this correctly that for ST4/TT4 you can still apply the +.4 OEM Aero factor and have any or all of the above modifications? I just want to be sure I am reading it correctly. Thanks! I think if you only do section 1 of D) you can apply the +.4 OEM Aero Factor but if you do section 2 than that factor goes away. Might be easier to read if ST4 Aerodynamic Modification Allowances turned into its own lettered section ie. E) Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowmants Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 I think if you only do section 1 of D) you can apply the +.4 OEM Aero Factor but if you do section 2 than that factor goes away. Might be easier to read if ST4 Aerodynamic Modification Allowances turned into its own lettered section ie. E) Jon Ok--I read it that for ST4 only, you were allowed to have basic front splitter/wing and it still just counted as OEM aero. Otherwise why would they even have included that section 2? I guess we need more clarification... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jon B. Posted November 2, 2016 Members Share Posted November 2, 2016 "Relocation of suspension mounting points is not permitted in ST4." Does this mean that items like roll center or bump steer correction pieces added between the front spindle and control arms would not be allowed in ST4? Or, does relocation imply modifying the chassis mounting points for suspension components? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon819 Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 Seems the Thunder Roadsters got hit pretty hard with having the penalty for having a motorcycle gearbox going up to -.3 instead of -.2 last year and also the loss of the engine credit of +.3 so in total a swing of -.4. The entire Engine section missing seems odd as it hurts the Mazda's and thunder roadsters but helps the Porsches. Just some observations... Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike W. Posted November 2, 2016 Members Share Posted November 2, 2016 I think if you only do section 1 of D) you can apply the +.4 OEM Aero Factor but if you do section 2 than that factor goes away. Might be easier to read if ST4 Aerodynamic Modification Allowances turned into its own lettered section ie. E) Jon Ok--I read it that for ST4 only, you were allowed to have basic front splitter/wing and it still just counted as OEM aero. Otherwise why would they even have included that section 2? I guess we need more clarification... Section 1 is what can be done and still considered "OEM Aero". Nowhere in Section 1 does it list front splitter/wing. Once you start doing things listed in Section 2, the OEM Aero Modification Factor can not be used. Aerodynamic parts/devices/aides shall be limited in ST4 to the following: a) All of the items listed above in section 7.3.2.D.1) “OEM Aero” Modification Factor. This is just stating that you can still do the stuff listed in Section 1, not that you can still use the "OEM Aero" Modification factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_Roberts Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 "For ST1, ST2, and ST3, all other vehicles (except for sports racers, “prototypes”, and monocoque purpose-built racers), including “kit” cars, purpose-built track/race cars, and tubeframe vehicles are considered “Non-Production” vehicles, and will be assessed the “NonProduction Vehicle” Modification Factor listed in 7.4.2" I am not clear on the exact difference between sports racers, "prototypes", monocoque purpose-built racers and what is considered a Non-Production vehicle. It seems to me there is some potential overlap there. There is a huge difference in the adjustment factors, so this is an important distinction of course. This may not be the greatest example, but for the sake of discussion, is a Radical a monocoque purpose-built racer, or a purpose-built track/race car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shuko Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 Man... I'm also bummed to see the "no non-prod cars in ST4 rule." The only thing putting the Miata into ST3 was the tubular subframe and I had high hopes that I could settle into the new 4 class. Seems I'm stuck in 3 for good now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted November 2, 2016 Author National Staff Share Posted November 2, 2016 "Relocation of suspension mounting points is not permitted in ST4." Does this mean that items like roll center or bump steer correction pieces added between the front spindle and control arms would not be allowed in ST4? Or, does relocation imply modifying the chassis mounting points for suspension components? Relocation means changing the actual suspension melting points on the frame, chassis, sub frame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted November 2, 2016 Author National Staff Share Posted November 2, 2016 Yes a radical is a sports racer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 Greg, The way I read the rules, the NASA NP01 is only allowed in ST2 and only in ST2 in Spec NP01 trim. Is this the case? -Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted November 3, 2016 Author National Staff Share Posted November 3, 2016 Greg, The way I read the rules, the NASA NP01 is only allowed in ST2 and only in ST2 in Spec NP01 trim. Is this the case? -Kevin Hi Kevin, no the NPO1 can also run in ST1 or ST2 using the modification factor for prototypes. We think that the -3.2 modification factor in ST2 is enough, Along with the modification factors for transmission and weight. Of course, these are always subject to change if necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Greg, The way I read the rules, the NASA NP01 is only allowed in ST2 and only in ST2 in Spec NP01 trim. Is this the case? -Kevin Hi Kevin, no the NPO1 can also run in ST1 or ST2 using the modification factor for prototypes. We think that the -3.2 modification factor in ST2 is enough, Along with the modification factors for transmission and weight. Of course, these are always subject to change if necessary. Makes sense. It is just the way the NP01 is called out in the last section made me think it was limited to ST2. So no ST3 at all, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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