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2017 Rule Proposal - GTS2 power/weight and penalties

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dnvrdrvr

I could go either direction with the power/weight changes. Take it or leave it, as series changes are bound to happen. I just appreciate being given more than 2 months before the season-opener to figure out how I want to adjust my car according whatever is decided. My request is that the final ruling be FINAL (and not revised multiple times, as we saw the beginning of this year).

 

As for the non-DOT proposal, I don't think it should be removed 100%, but wouldn't object if it were backed off from 1.5 to half that @ .75.

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mdgreen

A reduction in the slick penalty is a great use for the black box data Michael has been capturing from those of us actively racing. We can all agree the adjustment should be made based on data instead of conjecture.

 

The main point remains: that the current slick penalty is too severe. I'm assuming all the top finishers are on DOT rubber, not a mix of DOT and slicks, which would indicate a fair slick penalty.

 

Like others, removing hundreds of pounds of weight or adding tons of power aren't viable options for me. Slicks are another option to gain time, but the penalty needs to reflect the actual advantage of slicks in 2017.

 

Racers whine, nothing new there. I want the rules to promote viable class sizes vs. catering to those wanting to turn it into a budget space race. That's how series die.

 

Mike Dovorany

SoCal

GTS2

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r0nd3L

Vote yes to 14.0 or 13.5.

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gofastzach

I'd like to offer a few thoughts from someone with the wherewithal, ability, and full intention to take every advantage of the rules. I feel that regardless of where the change is rooted, it will have many unintended consequences. Based on what has been proposed thus far, I would be able to increase my power level to a point that would eliminate the need to factor TQ in my weight calculation. As a matter of fact I could possible increase power and reduce weight. This information coupled with a potential reduction in the slick penalty would prove very lucrative in my situation because I could increase my power and run a narrower slick that would increase my terminal velocity while maintaining the grip level of my large tires. So In my world this is a win win….win. The real facts are, unless you are consistently running laps within a second of each other for an entire race duration switching tires is not going to magically get you to the podium let alone the top step.

The unintended consequence here is trying to make the class more affordable by allowing/running take off slicks will make me and other front runners faster and increasing the gaps to the mid-pack guys. If we want to allow take off’s only, it would be nearly impossible to police. Absolutely nothing will stop someone from buying new Conti’s running around the block and calling them “take-offs”.

If you want to make your racing more “affordable” test your car and find a set up to make a soft compound(A7’s/R1S) tire work. Win a race and win them back. BOOM your tires just became free. And before you tell me that can’t be done, I have set lap records and won races on hankooks versus guys on A’s.

In conclusion, I feel that we need to take a step back and see how this will affect the class and make sure it has a positive impact as the last two years have ended with a foul taste for some. If you think that giving someone like me more power and better tires will level the playing field that’s fine. Just don’t point the finger at me in a year and say I destroyed the class.

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wazgtsRacer

I agree with Zach on the tire thing. Decreasing the penalty for Slicks can potentially give the guys that can afford sticker slicks the ability to gain an edge... but lets all be honest here... GTS is a pay to play series. If we were are truly serious about trying to fix costs (which I am not advocating for) we should have a spec tire... but then to be "competitive" you may need to run stickers every race, as seen in other "spec" series... so it doesn't actually make anything cheaper. I know take offs are cheap... but like Zach pointed out.. how do you regulate "take offs"? Huge bag of worms. Id vote just keep the penalty the same.

 

I think GTS in general needs to follow the KISS principle, Keep It Simple Stupid!

 

I don't think raising the ratio is designed to equal the playing field within the series. I would be able to add power and decrease weight.. a win win for me cuz lower weight uses consumables less, which equals less cost. I think the original thought of it was to allow more of an easy supersize between some TT classes and possibly ST4, not to somehow equalize competition in GTS2. I also support the ratio bump cuz.. "I wana go Fast" not gonna lie, the uphill essess at the Glen i was beggin for a little more HP!!

 

Either way change the ratio or dont... we have a good GTS2 crew, and I dont wana F- that up.

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911.racer

 

 

I disagree respectfully of course. You can run $5k abs systems, dry sump oiling systems, $5k brake systems, stand alone ecus, any aero you want, ect. in GTS without getting hit. I know a ton of GTS racers in the Mid West that buy DOT scrubs and race on those, my self included, but the market is small. There is a HUGE market for scrub slicks in almost every size. So I don't get the cost argument at all. Guys run new sticker DOT tires every session and no one cares. If those same guys want to run sticker Michelin slicks every session let them, who cares! If they can afford it let them. I can't but I can afford some really nice scrub slicks at a fraction of the cost that will get me within tenths of the guys on stickers and those stickers are only stickers one time. I've also run back to back on slicks and dots. Some dots are faster than some slicks and vice versa. It all depends but I do not see cost as a reason to limit anything as the guys with big budgets will have stickers no matter dot or slicks. So if you can't afford the same and you feel stickers are your only way to win than you have already lost and you might as well save some $$ doing it.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Ryan,

 

Very well put. I agree that we should not focus on certain restrictions and ignore others. I am not a fan of the restrictions at all. At some point we will end up with a series more like the rule set for TT or ST. Add up your performance points and see where you end up.

 

Some of the best ways that you can go faster can cost you very little. Some are free. Depends on how good of an engineer you are. The best way to go faster is to spend a lot of money (hire a coach and go practice down south all winter long).

 

You can not stop a spending war when the best money spent is on your classroom and your teacher.

 

From an engineering standpoint, I will be working on active aero this winter. I know it has been attempted in the past, but it is my turn now.

 

Also, for those of you in Great Lakes I will be sending out your winter class room training on how to go faster without breaking the bank (or the rules)

 

As for Zach (love your post by the way) and his abilities in GTS2, well, I guess at some point he might go pro ? Back in my day I ran in GTS3. I had to deal with my own Zach, his name, however, was Scott Berkowitz.

 

Thanks

 

Ed

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daytonars4

I was indifferent between 14.0 and 13.5 before, but I'm going to say 14.0 now. Had an opportunity to play around in the fun race today in Midatlantic. Myself and another GTS2 car upped to about 13.5 and we were right on pace with where GTS3 has been this year at Dominion. I think even a track like Summit Point would be an issue. So unless GTS3 gets a power bump I think 14.0 seems like a modest bump without getting right into the GTS3 battles. It's only a difference of about 8-10whp or around 100lbs, so certainly not a "game change" but still enough to liven the cars up some.

 

Pretty safe to say so far based on GTS2 racer responses that the vast majority are in favor of maintaining a slick penalty. While the ability to use scrub Conti's is nice, there's 0 ability to police that. So any penalty has to assume someone like Zach coming out with sticker slicks. A slick penalty isn't anywhere close to being more intrusive than a CC penalty so not sure I follow the "don't want it to become like TT/ST" argument. I think 1.5 is clearly excessive since no one runs them. .5 to .75 is probably shooting too low. So how about 1.0 or 1.25 penalty? That's about a 10-13whp loss. Or leave it at 1.5 if the option is that or having it at 0 penalty.

 

Lawrence Gibson

Midatlantic GTS2

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fbirch
I was indifferent between 14.0 and 13.5 before, but I'm going to say 14.0 now. Had an opportunity to play around in the fun race today in Midatlantic. Myself and another GTS2 car upped to about 13.5 and we were right on pace with where GTS3 has been this year at Dominion. I think even a track like Summit Point would be an issue. So unless GTS3 gets a power bump I think 14.0 seems like a modest bump without getting right into the GTS3 battles. It's only a difference of about 8-10whp or around 100lbs, so certainly not a "game change" but still enough to liven the cars up some.

 

Pretty safe to say so far based on GTS2 racer responses that the vast majority are in favor of maintaining a slick penalty. While the ability to use scrub Conti's is nice, there's 0 ability to police that. So any penalty has to assume someone like Zach coming out with sticker slicks. A slick penalty isn't anywhere close to being more intrusive than a CC penalty so not sure I follow the "don't want it to become like TT/ST" argument. I think 1.5 is clearly excessive since no one runs them. .5 to .75 is probably shooting too low. So how about 1.0 or 1.25 penalty? That's about a 10-13whp loss. Or leave it at 1.5 if the option is that or having it at 0 penalty.

 

Lawrence Gibson

Midatlantic GTS2

 

I'd be okay with either 14.0 or 13.5, but I'm a bit surprised and somewhat puzzled that a 13.5 GTS2 car would be just as fast as an 11.0 GTS3 car at any track. Are the GTS3 cars less well developed than GTS2 on your home track? At my home track, there is a 6-sec gap in the lap records between GTS2 and GTS3, and both records are held by cars developed by the same shop and driven by the same group of drivers. Even at 13.5, there would be a 50 HP difference between GTS2 and GTS3 in a car with 3000 lb competition weight, and that's a pretty big gap.

 

Felix B.

NOLA GTS2

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MJ996

I was one of the two GTS3 cars running at Dominion with Lawrence this weekend. The MA GTS3 class is certainly in a rebuilding phase -- car counts have been as high as 5 or 6 at a couple of races but more typically 2 or 3. This was my rookie year and while I know I'm faster now than the start of the season I'm not yet at the limit of what my car can do. That said, shorter tracks like Dominion and Summit tend to equalize the classes. For instance at Dominion my fast lap was a 1:30, but GTS4 and ST3 cars were turning no better than 1:29 (except for superhuman driver DJ Fitzpatrick, who is in another league at every track). At a longer track like VIR GTS3 runs 2:06-2:07, GTS4 2:03-2:04, and ST3 below that, while GTS2 cars are 2:10 and above (most in the 2:13-2:15 range). Clearly driver skill and car setup play big roles in observed lap times, but hopefully that gives you some perspective on how the classes stacked up this year in MA. Personally I'm all for making GTS2 slightly faster because it will push me to drive better in my own class, but not so fast that we're constantly fighting the inter-class racing issue.

 

Mike Helpinstill

Mid Atlantic GTS3

Porsche 996

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gofastzach
I was indifferent between 14.0 and 13.5 before, but I'm going to say 14.0 now. Had an opportunity to play around in the fun race today in Midatlantic. Myself and another GTS2 car upped to about 13.5 and we were right on pace with where GTS3 has been this year at Dominion. I think even a track like Summit Point would be an issue. So unless GTS3 gets a power bump I think 14.0 seems like a modest bump without getting right into the GTS3 battles. It's only a difference of about 8-10whp or around 100lbs, so certainly not a "game change" but still enough to liven the cars up some.

 

Pretty safe to say so far based on GTS2 racer responses that the vast majority are in favor of maintaining a slick penalty. While the ability to use scrub Conti's is nice, there's 0 ability to police that. So any penalty has to assume someone like Zach coming out with sticker slicks. A slick penalty isn't anywhere close to being more intrusive than a CC penalty so not sure I follow the "don't want it to become like TT/ST" argument. I think 1.5 is clearly excessive since no one runs them. .5 to .75 is probably shooting too low. So how about 1.0 or 1.25 penalty? That's about a 10-13whp loss. Or leave it at 1.5 if the option is that or having it at 0 penalty.

 

Lawrence Gibson

Midatlantic GTS2

 

I'd be okay with either 14.0 or 13.5, but I'm a bit surprised and somewhat puzzled that a 13.5 GTS2 car would be just as fast as an 11.0 GTS3 car at any track. Are the GTS3 cars less well developed than GTS2 on your home track? At my home track, there is a 6-sec gap in the lap records between GTS2 and GTS3, and both records are held by cars developed by the same shop and driven by the same group of drivers. Even at 13.5, there would be a 50 HP difference between GTS2 and GTS3 in a car with 3000 lb competition weight, and that's a pretty big gap.

 

Felix B.

NOLA GTS2

 

I am very regularly faster than the back of the gts3 pack regardless of what track. I dont think anything about this rule proposal will do anything to benefit the series.

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AgLiftPilot

Well I am late to the discussion but still relevant for future thought. I would agree that there is a huge performance and speed gap between GTS1 and GTS2 primarily due to the cars that are showing up. The GTS1 cars Ive seen are usually built for another class (SE30, 944Spec) and supersize into GTS1 at the bigger events. I know of a few other cars that are regular GTS1 competitors but the car inst built anywhere to the limit of the rules which, I believe, is the largest reason for the speed disparity. Maybe if there were a regular stable of GTS1 racers who are all competing with each other the level of car prep would become closer to the limit. The majority of cars that would be the typical GTS1 car generally start as a slower, older, less desirable and not as capable car as the ones that populate the GTS2 and higher classes.

 

My car being a 944Spec race car is power limited to 140 HP/TQ avg and 2600 pounds min weight for that class. At that power my min weight is in the low 2400s meaning I usually carry 200 pounds of extra weight when I supersize into GTS1. Even if I run a chip, which is an easy swap to gain 5-10 HP/TQ, I would still likely carry 100 pound of extra weight so I mostly have to rely on good/smart driving to be in a position to win.

 

The rules cant do anything about the level of car prep that shows up so I'm not sure bumping up the GTS1 power level will do anything but disenfranchise current racers along with splitting the GTS2 field for those that cant quite fit into the GTS2 pwr to weight.

 

Is the current speed gap dangerous? I felt like I played well with the much faster cars at WGI but I was being courteous and watching my mirrors. Another driver who might not be as aware as me could create a dangerous situation given the speed differential but it's never anything that can't be avoided so long as the class maintains a culture of awareness and courteous racing.

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