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ST4 SUGGESTED RULE CHANGES FOR 2018

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esr

Any thing you guys are seeing that should be corrected to foster close racing?

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esr
Any thing you guys are seeing that should be corrected to foster close racing?

 

 

 

here is a video from a guy that early in the year claimed small cars would have a power disadvantage therefore they should be allowed as big a tire as possible.

Doesn't seem short of power here.

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Savington

Usually it takes more than one weekend of racing for people to propose rules against me

 

Rafael, I have to poke a little fun because the video doesn't show what you want it to show. The closest thing to an even pull you can see is at 4:00 down the front straight, and my Miata and Jon's E36 are dead nuts even the entire way. If anything, I should be gaining a little in the draft, but I'm not. It should be no surprise to anyone that a well-prepped ~2500lb Miata (comp weight 2473, I was scaling in the 2485-2495 range all weekend) and a well-prepped ~2700lb E36 should be fairly even on power. My car makes 215whp peak, 211.25whp average.

 

Nobody at that event had any issue at all with the car, or if they did, they did a damn good job of hiding it. It was nothing but a hugely welcoming and enjoyable group of racers. Hopefully I'll see you at Thunderhill in August.

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enivid

Relaxed aero rules. A lot of aftermarket splitters extend 5".

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ja1217
Relaxed aero rules. A lot of aftermarket splitters extend 5".

 

I agree. I'd even be fine with unrestricted aero as that would allow for a lot more crossover from other series, like GTS where most competitors have canards, etc.

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kpearson
Any thing you guys are seeing that should be corrected to foster close racing?

 

 

 

here is a video from a guy that early in the year claimed small cars would have a power disadvantage therefore they should be allowed as big a tire as possible.

Doesn't seem short of power here.

 

On tracks with very long straights, cars with more power given the same power to weight ratio will pull away on the straights (i.e. what are limitations to top speed... power and aero). You can't fix that unless you just have spec classes with the exact same cars. For the most part, the power to weight ratio works well across varying tracks. Some cars will favor some tracks, and others will favor another. It most of the time balances out across a season (unless your group only runs 1 or 2 tracks for the entire season).

 

The downside is having the championships on a single track which means it's likely that one type of car will have some advantage over another even at the same power to weight ratio.

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esr

Bro,

this has nothing to do with you, whoever you are!

Is about cars.

I saw a video and call it as I see it.

I have a 350z, it doesn't have more torque than an s2k, I know because I raced Martin Tagliavi and we were pretty equal on the drag race.

Your car whoever you are has very clearly more torque than the s2k and than the e36, and still stays with the e36 down the straight pretty equally, now when we get to that corner you have 600 lbs less than my car to slow down, turn, and accelerate.

We are not hypothesizing anymore or going by your physics thesis anymore, these are now facts on video.

 

That is why I bring this up early in the year, because last time I spoke with the National Director I think in dec or jan, he told me sorry man this should have been brought up early on.

 

Will see, I don't make the rules, I am just giving my opinion based on how I see it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Usually it takes more than one weekend of racing for people to propose rules against me

 

Rafael, I have to poke a little fun because the video doesn't show what you want it to show. The closest thing to an even pull you can see is at 4:00 down the front straight, and my Miata and Jon's E36 are dead nuts even the entire way. If anything, I should be gaining a little in the draft, but I'm not. It should be no surprise to anyone that a well-prepped ~2500lb Miata (comp weight 2473, I was scaling in the 2485-2495 range all weekend) and a well-prepped ~2700lb E36 should be fairly even on power. My car makes 215whp peak, 211.25whp average.

 

Nobody at that event had any issue at all with the car, or if they did, they did a damn good job of hiding it. It was nothing but a hugely welcoming and enjoyable group of racers. Hopefully I'll see you at Thunderhill in August.

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esr

we don't need cross over, we need close racing!

Otherwise why not just do a track day?

 

 

 

 

Relaxed aero rules. A lot of aftermarket splitters extend 5".

 

I agree. I'd even be fine with unrestricted aero as that would allow for a lot more crossover from other series, like GTS where most competitors have canards, etc.

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Savington

I disagree vehemently and I don't think the video supports your hypothesis in any way, shape, or form.

 

See you in August, hopefully.

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ja1217
we don't need cross over, we need close racing!

Otherwise why not just do a track day?

 

In order to have close racing you must have people to race against.

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esr

Oh you will see me in august!

question is will we see you once the rules get corrected????

 

 

I disagree vehemently and I don't think the video supports your hypothesis in any way, shape, or form.

 

See you in August, hopefully.

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Arca_ex

As for actual suggestions to the rules, I would say relax the aero rules a bit. Allow for fender modification, side skirts, rear bumper, rear diffuser, maybe extend splitter rule to 5" so that it can attract more cars that may already have these things from other series like GTS. Maybe just no flat bottoms. Save the heavy aero regulation for ST5 and ST6.

 

 

Oh you will see me in august!

question is will we see you once the rules get corrected????

 

 

I disagree vehemently and I don't think the video supports your hypothesis in any way, shape, or form.

 

See you in August, hopefully.

 

 

Are you kidding me... "bro"?

 

You think that he should be "corrected" out of being competitive? In your first post you stated it as if it was a good thing they didn't get this extra bonus, because looks like it's fair! Now you switch gears and think the current rules are unfair or what? You are an interesting individual drawing all these conclusions from one video of one race against one other competitor.

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Ev
You are an interesting individual drawing all these conclusions from one video of one race against one other competitor.

That's the way things work don't ya know... A data point of one is enough to call the whole thing broken... off>

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esr

There are some guys below that think I am attacking you at a personal level, not the case at all. I am just talking about cars.

Just different views I guess.

See you at the track if my busy old fart life allows.

Best of luck in your racing.

 

 

 

I disagree vehemently and I don't think the video supports your hypothesis in any way, shape, or form.

 

See you in August, hopefully.

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icemang17

I agree with looser aero rules to attract cars setup as GTS and other series.

 

The strength of "ST" is anything goes, within some basic guidelines. The bottom line is the more cars locally in the series the more fun it is for everyone! Sure the turbo miata and E36 are quick and competitive now, but so is lightweight FWD honda's too. In my opinion Sonoma favors lighter more nimble cars (given same power/weight) but Thunderhill leans more towards power like Laguna does.

 

I'm hoping to join the norcal ST4 group next season, if I can get the budget together. of course I must be different, so it won't be a miata, E36 or Honda....

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Savington

I'll be the naysayer and say that I'm a fan of the aero rules as written. Simple front air dam, simple rear wing restrictions, (basically) nothing else allowed. I would not be in support of adding things like canards, sideskirts, rear tire spats, etc (even though rear tire spats in particular would be hugely helpful for my own car). The simplicity of the ST4 aero package is a big positive, at least for me.

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kpearson

The strength of "ST" is anything goes, within some basic guidelines.

 

All groups will be "ST" soon...

 

I'll be the naysayer and say that I'm a fan of the aero rules as written.

 

+1

 

I know a lot of drivers who will have ST4 cars later this season and into next season mainly due to the more strict requirements. i.e. they don't want to compete against the crazy aero allowances in ST3.

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k24madness

Your car whoever you are has very clearly more torque than the s2k and than the e36, and still stays with the e36 down the straight pretty equally, now when we get to that corner you have 600 lbs less than my car to slow down, turn, and accelerate. We are not hypothesizing anymore or going by your physics thesis anymore, these are now facts on video.

 

That has always been the advantage of a lighter car on a tighter track. Clearly the rules must do a pretty good job of evening things out across the marques or we would not be seeing such a mixed bag of winners on the podium.

 

That is why I bring this up early in the year, because last time I spoke with the National Director I think in dec or jan, he told me sorry man this should have been brought up early on.

 

Will see, I don't make the rules, I am just giving my opinion based on how I see it.

 

 

Maybe you should argue for equal frontal area or center of gravity in the rules. You could also ask for equal RPM bands for each motor. Where does it end?

 

In my humble opinion NASA does a great job of making rules to keep each class competitive. Read em and determine which tool is best for the job at hand. Attempting to bend the rules around your current car is a fools errand.

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B Esquire

I watched the video and it is exactly as I would expect more or less. When Jon gets a good exit he creeps away on the straight away, the way a heavier car with more power should. In the tight technical areas Andrew gets better runs that negates the power of the BMW, just as you would expect at Sonoma. T Hill will be a different story.

 

The only thing I am rooting for as far as rules changes go is to expand data points for power (6 instead of 4). Current 4 points don't quite cut it for leveling the playing field with throttle plate tuned cars, or Turbo cars with a lot more torque. But we are talking fine tuning here, so far the competition has been great!

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B Esquire

Also, leave the aero rules alone, a lot of people just spent money to make their cars legal in ST4. ST4 and below should focus more and more about future builds being as inexpensive as you can get for a series like this. GTS is dead (in NorCal anyway), the few that are left can make some simple changes and come join ST, it is here to stay!

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esr

great points.

 

Still the MIATA had way too much torque, it made the m3 seem like a heavy pig, the m3 makes my z seem like a heavy pig!

I don't think the video shows the miata having better runs out of corner from better handling, that would have been great, it actually shows much more torque after the miata lost all its momentum. Pure drag race!

 

that was not even a race!

 

why is it so hard to see??

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, leave the aero rules alone, a lot of people just spent money to make their cars legal in ST4. ST4 and below should focus more and more about future builds being as inexpensive as you can get for a series like this. GTS is dead (in NorCal anyway), the few that are left can make some simple changes and come join ST, it is here to stay!

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esr

fully agree!!!

whats wrong with a drivers championship.

We are already plagued with best car wins series, why ask for one more!

go join an existing one!!!!!!!!

 

 

I'll be the naysayer and say that I'm a fan of the aero rules as written. Simple front air dam, simple rear wing restrictions, (basically) nothing else allowed. I would not be in support of adding things like canards, sideskirts, rear tire spats, etc (even though rear tire spats in particular would be hugely helpful for my own car). The simplicity of the ST4 aero package is a big positive, at least for me.

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esr

as far as anything goes, you are correct for st3 and faster!

 

ST4 and below is kind of sort of the evolution of the pt series.

 

 

I agree with looser aero rules to attract cars setup as GTS and other series.

 

The strength of "ST" is anything goes, within some basic guidelines. The bottom line is the more cars locally in the series the more fun it is for everyone! Sure the turbo miata and E36 are quick and competitive now, but so is lightweight FWD honda's too. In my opinion Sonoma favors lighter more nimble cars (given same power/weight) but Thunderhill leans more towards power like Laguna does.

 

I'm hoping to join the norcal ST4 group next season, if I can get the budget together. of course I must be different, so it won't be a miata, E36 or Honda....

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daytonars4

-Banning the most commonly used e36 splitter due to a tiny lip on the side (considered a canard by the rules) doesn't seem reasdonable. It really doesn't provide a material advantage and just prevents larger fields when other classes like Spec46 and GTS2 are interested in joining in.

http://www.bimmerworld.com/Body-Aero/Front-Spoilers/MaxVelocity-E36-M3-EVO-II-Track-Splitter_2.html

 

-M3's, regardless of year, are allowed to convert to the MK60 ABS system which happens to be one of the best on the market. There are even Cup cars who do the MK60 standalone conversion over the Porsche ABS system. So allowing all M3's to have the system which is better than the factory ABS on almost any other car is fine. But then to ban other cars from being able to do the MK60 conversion doesn't make much sense. All cars should be allowed to run an MK60 and you can keep race systems like the Bosch Motorsport on the banned list/mod penalty.

 

-The 4 door mod just doesn't seem necessary. In both GTS2 and Spec46 the 4 door cars don't appear to have any material disadvantage, so why offer it. You can eliminate the 4 door mod and reduce the AWD mod to maintain that "goal variance" you are looking for with Evo's etc.

Edited by Guest

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dizzy8085

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I may put a higher hp motor in my car and come play in the future.

 

-I think you guys should consider writing a spec line for the kmiata/v8 roadster subframes for miatas and mx5's, to exclude them from making the car non production.These kits allow the do it your self guy to build these cars in the garage and have a cheap to run car that fits in the class. They provide no suspension advantage, as all the pickup points are the same.

 

If you could fabricate your self, then you could make it work with the stock subframe. Or you could pay a shop a ton of hours to do it. Instead, let the guys building cars in our garages use the off the shelf parts.

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