2018 RCRs for the 2019 rulebook

[Al Watson]

Well its that time of the year again. In case you forgot below is the rule change request procedure and adjusted timeline.

 

Procedure:

1. Rule change requests (RCR’s) will be accepted all season from the release date of the previous years rule package until October 25th of the current year. Note rules will not be changed mid season unless absolutely necessary. Technical bulletins may be issued by Nasa as has been done in the past.

2. RCR’s must be submitted via email to the national director with a CC to your regional director. Please include which class & 'RCR' in the subject line.

3. RCR’s must contain the following: Name, region, contact info, class, rule number, recommended changes and reasoning.

4. RCR’s will be assigned a number for future reference, ie AIRCR-010113.

5. RCR’s will be prioritized and addressed by the regional and national directors all season.

6. RCR’s will be listed on the forums by October 25th for public comment.

7. New rules packages will be submitted to Nasa HQ for approval by November 1st.

8. New rules packages to be approved by Nasa HQ and released to the public by November 15th.

 

Timeline Commitment:

 

All season – RCRs submitted and addressed

Oct 25th – RCRs done. RCRs open for public comment.

Nov 1st – Rules pack submitted to Nasa HQ

Nov 15th – Rules approved and released

 

Thanks, Al Watson.

[Al Watson]

A bit early but here are this years RCRs:

 

rcr-si-062018    windshield decal issue if changing classes ai-aix.  language already states no issue if director ok's it. leave as is..
rcr-si-090918    elliminate windshield banner requirement
rcr-si092618    allow frpp control pack in si
rcr-si-092718    allow other body panels in si
rcr-si-092918    dyno with hood open
rcr-si-100118    allow hood vents in si for better cooling
    
    
rcr-ai-010918    splitter shape language clean up so not a wing?  
rcr-ai-062018    windshield decal issue if changing classes ai-aix. language already states no issue if director ok's it. leave as is.
rcr-ai-090118    allow 15" rotors in ai.  then what about aix?
rcr-ai-092818    close up some aero loop holes in ai, door mirrors, quarter panel window deflectors, cowl panels
rcr-ai-092918    dyno with hood open
    
    
rcr-aix-010918    splitter shape language clean up so not a wing?
rcr-aix-062018    windshield decal issue if changing classes ai-aix. language already states no issue if director ok's it. leave as is.
rcr-aix-093018    retract 7.3.3 allowing aftermarket bolt in front subframes in aix, grandfather existing
    

[snakebit]

RCR-SI-090918 windshield banner.

We need to leave this alone. It gives us a quick indicator in the rear view if the car behind is si, ai, or aix. 

[SNAKBITN]

I say leave the windshield banner as it is.I like them.

Control packs....if you can find them why not use them.

Body panels should be OEM.No need to bring in aftermarket parts for the body.

Why dyno with the hood up...we don't race with the hood up.

No need for hood vents.If you have a cooling problem either you haven't ducted that in properly or you're not using a fr radiator.

I see no need in rule creep to benefit the one over the many.

 

[Al Watson]

updated:

 

rcr-si-062018    windshield decal issue if changing classes ai-aix.  language already states no issue if director ok's it. leave as is..
rcr-si-090918    elliminate windshield banner requirement
rcr-si092618    allow frpp control pack in si
rcr-si-092718    allow other body panels in si
rcr-si-092918    dyno with hood open
rcr-si-100118    allow hood vents in si for better cooling
rcr-si-102318    allow charge motion delete plates    
    
rcr-ai-010918    splitter shape language clean up so not a wing?  
rcr-ai-062018    windshield decal issue if changing classes ai-aix. language already states no issue if director ok's it. leave as is.
rcr-ai-090118    allow 15" rotors in ai.  then what about aix?
rcr-ai-092818    close up some aero loop holes in ai, door mirrors, quarter panel window deflectors, cowl panels
rcr-ai-092918    dyno with hood open
    
    
rcr-aix-010918    splitter shape language clean up so not a wing?
rcr-aix-062018    windshield decal issue if changing classes ai-aix. language already states no issue if director ok's it. leave as is.
rcr-aix-093018    retract 7.3.3 allowing aftermarket bolt in front subframes in aix, grandfather existing

[TBGRacing]

rcr-ai-090118    allow 15" rotors in ai.  then what about aix?

Allow 15" rotors in AI and AIX. It allows newer cars that are equiped with 15" rotors to compete without having to invest $$$'s to downgrade. 

[Al Watson]

My take is this: Ai in general should be close to what GT style OEM cars are coming with, not race cars like the boss302 etc.

In regards to brakes I say NO, stay 14" in AI and 15" in AIx.  We are limited to 17-18" rims so aix cant go bigger.  Also there are two flavors, some who bought and old car for cheaps and dumps alot $ into it and someone who bought a new car for alot $ and put not so much money in it, either case upgrading or downgrading gets the car in the class rules.  If and when new cars come with 20" rims and 17" brakes are we gonna allow that?  Rules creep again.  Allowing 15" in Ai puts the budget racers with tiny brakes at more of a disadvantage, think power to weight, heavy car lots hp but not so good braking, light car low hp good brakes, even setting a min weight like 3600lbs just hands the advantage to the heavy cars.

as for the charge motion delete, control pack, hood vents and other year oem body panels I say NO.  This is the beginings of the rules creep, none are a needed keep Si stock.

just my take..

[TBGRacing]

As for the 15" rotors in AI, I am one racer with one opinion. No disrespect intended. I do not understand the logic behind this statement for the American Iron class.

"Our logic is to keep up with the times and what new cars are coming out with however our baseline is not a 'race prepped' track cars like the 302s or gt350 etc, our baseline is GT type v8 base models."

If the request was made for 15" rotors in Spec Iron, then it would be understandable because it is class with minimal modifications. However, American Iron and American Iron Extreme certain modifications are allowed. Especially in AIX where modifications are radical in comparison to Spec Iron and American Iron. If you want to stay true to "our baseline is GT type v8 base models", then Spec Iron is a great class. In order to keep up with the times, some change is required. The difference between how a BIW is built, and a S197 is modified, is minimal in comparison to a purchased Boss 302S. You can choose to build a car or buy a car, but for the newer cars coming in to the class and the Boss 302S's that came with 15" front rotors, it is an unnecessary $4k+ expense to downgrade the brake package.

If the concern is heavy cars vs. lighter cars, higher hp vs lower hp, then does the power to weight requirements not address this? The deduction in HP and Torque for cars that have ABS? The request to allow 15" in AI is reasonable to keep up with the times.

Thank you for your consideration.

 

[Al Watson]

"it is an unnecessary $4k+ expense to downgrade the brake package."

so is it an unnecessary for all of the existing racers with 13 or 14" kits to spend $4k to keep up?

there needs to be a balance...

[TBGRacing]

If keeping up is a legitimate concern, then there has to be balance across the board. That means no Watts Links, no Torque Arms, no Negative Cambered Rear Ends, no SLA Suspension, no Double, Triple Adjusted Shock Packages. That is approximately $25,000.00 in upgrades to be competitive and keep up. The consideration for 15" rotors is significantly less than what is currently being spent in this class. Thanks for the feedback. 

[SNAKBITN]

Why the need to install the charge motion delete plates? Is anyone having issues with stock setup? 

[Al Watson]

TBG you have good points but the cat is out of the bag on most mods which should have been limited years ago and wouldnt be good to try and retract, so going forward we need to reasonably control things so they dont get further out of hand.  

[Mike Rousch]

I speak for AI. No 15 inch brakes, I agree that the ones who have already spent the money shouldn’t suffer.

NO to dynoing with the hood open. This was a big discussion last year, again look at our region ( Mid Atlantic ) with different combos ( coyotes, pushrods, etc ) and we still run within a few tenths of each other, plenty of weekends the pushrod is the fastest. Also we are the only region to my knowledge that has a dyno at every event we race at. The numbers these cars lay down on the rollers and the track proves parity is there already, no need to change what already works! 

[Ed M.]

Just to clarify the SI body panel rule RCR:

The request is specifically only asking for the allowance of OEM panels from a 2011-14 base model V6 - front bumper, hood (not GT), trunk, and rear bumper cover simply because they are interchangeable and easier to locate.

Ed  

[JAFOR]

 Only commenting on SI suggested changes.

I like the windshield banners that we use now. Helps Identify the car behind you.

Ok with the use of the control pack.

Ok with the use of OEM 2011-2014 V6 body panels. 

Dyno with hood down, considering we race with the hood down.

Don't have an opinion either way on the hood vent.

Thanks

[snakebit]

Keep the windshield banners

I'm good with the body panel allowance per Ed McGuire"s explanation

I'm okay with hood vents, but if allowed, there should be square inch maximum

Intake butterfly/ charge motion delete...only the 05-08 cars have these. I'm good with this mod. to free up a few top end HP. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe a competitor was allowed to continue racing at nationals, after it was discovered in tech, that this mod was done. If so, the precedent has been set in my opinion.

 

[dbrad]

I put in the request to eliminate the window banners.

I've read several indicating the banners help identify cars between AI, SI & AIX. There are so few SI cars in the country, we know the cars with a quick glance, with or without the banner.  It would be different if other classes knew (with a quick glance) the colors meant different classes (I.e. AIX, AI, SI).  For example at VIR, an E36 may not know white means SI.  Could assume an AI and will pass by the HP advantage, rather than SI car which is relatively even in lap times at VIR.

NASA's regs discuss the series is for promotion.  Yet the larger classes such as E30 & SI allow driver promotion with the window banners.   I could see Ford requiring SI to use a Ford Performance banner due to the contingency (but they don't).  I'm self employed, as is many others I know in SI.  Would be nice to run a banner promoting our respective businesses (also helps with potential challenges by the IRS). Some of you know I've been fortunate in having a sponsor of my SI car.  That banner space would be great in promoting that company.

Additionally, consider ST4.  Don't think it is a secret NASA hopes to drive participation into the ST classes.  When we participate in an event with no SI cars, would be nice to run ST4 rather than AI. Look at Jay & Carmine at Nationals.

Keeping the banners because we like them, is not really a reason they should remain.  If the rule remains for 2019 and I find a renter for the season, I don't care and it will stay on the car.  If no renter, the banner is coming off.  If that means cannot run SI, while I'll be disappointed, will run the car in ST4.

 

[Hardrvin]

On 10/23/2018 at 10:15 AM, blown5.0 said:

"it is an unnecessary $4k+ expense to downgrade the brake package."

so is it an unnecessary for all of the existing racers with 13 or 14" kits to spend $4k to keep up?

there needs to be a balance...

Is a 15” rotor an advantage?

If you have a lighter car that’s lower on power, and you’re not over powering a 14” or even smaller rotor, is a 15” really to your advantage?

And is your competitor that’s cooking rotors because he’s electing to weigh 3800 lbs with more HP, but still riding in 275 RRs do themselves any favors?

Short answer, I’m Ok with the 15” rotors 

[SNAKBITN]

As I said before. Any rule change should be made with the series in mind not the individual.If the parts are available to fall within the spec's of the rules....change them.

I've built several SI cars now and currently building another one.Have I found ways to save money....sure but it doesn't fall within the rule set and the cars would not all be the same.I don't see the need in changing rules unless a part is not available any longer.This leads to rule creep which has hurt several classes.

[74 mach]

 

Paul Faessler, Great Lakes, AIX, Rule 7.3.3

I propose to eliminate rule 7.3.3.

Stock complete frame rails have been the foundation of the AIX class since its inception.

Complete aftermarket tubular front sub frames should not be allowed.

 

This rule was announced midseason, the week of the (2011 or 2012) National Championship.

I was told that the intent was to increase car count. This radical change brought in 1 car for 1 Championship and nothing since.

We are finally getting legal cars built (Great Lakes  has had 3-5 AIX cars for the last couple of years).

WE NEED TO KEEP AIX INTACT, CARS WITH MODIFIED FRAME RAILS NEED TO RUN IN SUPER UNLIMITED!

 

[Al Watson]

2019 rules are out.  https://www.nasaproracing.com/rules

[kylesra]

On 10/29/2018 at 8:44 AM, dbrad said:

I put in the request to eliminate the window banners.

I've read several indicating the banners help identify cars between AI, SI & AIX. There are so few SI cars in the country, we know the cars with a quick glance, with or without the banner.  It would be different if other classes knew (with a quick glance) the colors meant different classes (I.e. AIX, AI, SI).  For example at VIR, an E36 may not know white means SI.  Could assume an AI and will pass by the HP advantage, rather than SI car which is relatively even in lap times at VIR.

NASA's regs discuss the series is for promotion.  Yet the larger classes such as E30 & SI allow driver promotion with the window banners.   I could see Ford requiring SI to use a Ford Performance banner due to the contingency (but they don't).  I'm self employed, as is many others I know in SI.  Would be nice to run a banner promoting our respective businesses (also helps with potential challenges by the IRS). Some of you know I've been fortunate in having a sponsor of my SI car.  That banner space would be great in promoting that company.

Additionally, consider ST4.  Don't think it is a secret NASA hopes to drive participation into the ST classes.  When we participate in an event with no SI cars, would be nice to run ST4 rather than AI. Look at Jay & Carmine at Nationals.

Keeping the banners because we like them, is not really a reason they should remain.  If the rule remains for 2019 and I find a renter for the season, I don't care and it will stay on the car.  If no renter, the banner is coming off.  If that means cannot run SI, while I'll be disappointed, will run the car in ST4. snow rider

 

If the issue is heavier automobiles vs. lighter cars, more horsepower vs. lower horsepower, do the power to weight standards solve this? The reduction in horsepower and torque for ABS-equipped vehicles? To stay up with the trends, the suggestion to enable 15" in AI seems sensible.