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joenationwide

NC Miata, BRZ/FR-S, and RX8 Should be Allowed in TT6

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joenationwide

They are all below the 17:1 power to weight ratio stock. See below:



NC Miata

Stock WHP: 135whp

Stock Weight: 2550 + 175lb driver

Stock P/W: 20:1



BRZ/FRS

Stock WHP: 160whp

Stock Weight: 2800lb + 175lb driver

Stock P/W: 18.6



RX8

Stock WHP: 185whp

Stock weight: 3100lbs + 175lb driver

Stock P/W: 17.7



These are extremely popular cars, we see more and more of these at our NASA MA events.

Why are they not included?

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Jake@JMU

Very valid question and I agree 100% with the proposal to allow these in ST/TT6. All three models are very popular, will continue to drop in price, and become more attainable as track/race car builds. If the cars fit the P:W ratio and follow the same points-based rule set as any other ST/TT car, why are they being called out by name and excluded? If these models are being excluded from ST/TT6, where else can they go?


There are fewer newish, sportyish cars available at attainable pricing compared to the 90s/00s market, and to exclude three inexpensive modern options strikes me as a bit biased, for whatever reason. Not saying that is the case, but that's how it can come across.

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MemphisRob

Where in the the rules are these excluded?


I saw the limit of OEM power to 168hp..and exclusion of the ND (155hp) Miata.

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rherold9

I specifically think to call out and outright ban a car in a class is against the spirit of the intended NEW rule-set. There is already hp cap. Adding a specific ban on a car is pretty ridiculous. I understand hp ban because no one wants to see a big v8 detuned in TT5, etc. But the 09+ NC Miata has 167hp base. Which is BELOW the 168hp ban. Either allow the NC Miata years that have 167hp base aka 2009-2015 to compete or lower the hp cap so they don't fit. THERE will always be an over-dog car. Whether it's major or minor. Rules just need to be updated over time to help balance the field. I think limiting the ballast amount in each class as well as hp will automatically push cars to other classes vs specifically calling them out. These cars would be forced into other TT classes due to not being able to make the weight/power.


I think my biggest and best suggestion would have another TT class to fit these types of cars as in the above title. We have TT5 which is 14:1. TT6 is 17.5:1. Maybe TT6 could be updated to be 16:1 and TT7 be 17.5:1?? If we are trying to make this game more affordable for people as mentioned when creating the simplified rules then forcing the NC/RX8/FRS/BRZ into TT/ST5 is going to be expensive to make them super competitive against other well prepped cars that fit the class much better (S2K, e46, and e36).

Edited by Guest

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joenationwide
Where in the the rules are these excluded?


I saw the limit of OEM power to 168hp..and exclusion of the ND (155hp) Miata.

 

See page 4, Section 4.

This excludes NC Miata, RX-8 and FR-S/BRZ.

 

4 Eligible Manufacturers/Models/Configurations


ST6 models must have 168 (one-hundred sixty-eight) or less factory rated engine

horsepower and an engine displacement less than 2.5L (unless specifically approved by

the National ST Director). (Note: BMW 325 E30 models are specifically eligible, and the

2006+ Mazda MX-5 is specifically not eligible).

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f1honda

I think my biggest and best suggestion would have another TT class to fit these types of cars as in the above title. We have TT5 which is 14:1. TT6 is 17.5:1. Maybe TT6 could be updated to be 16:1 and TT7 be 17.5:1?? If we are trying to make this game more affordable for people as mentioned when creating the simplified rules then forcing the NC/RX8/FRS/BRZ into TT/ST5 is going to be expensive to make them super competitive against other well prepped cars that fit the class much better (S2K, e46, and e36).

 

we dont need more TT class, spreading more cars out to more class. we already have problem with low entries per class.

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srproductions

Agreed, we don't need more classes. However, I'd love to hear the reasoning the NC Miata is not eligible for TT6 when it fits the target parameters for the class.

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rherold9

If we don't want more TT classes then increase the weight:power of TT5 to maybe 15:1? or 15.5:1? That would help keep these common cars mentioned above easier to fit in the class without dumping tons of money into them?

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f1honda

i built the rx8 to run ST5 this year and the stock engine if definitely not competitive for the class.

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rherold9
Agreed, we don't need more classes. However, I'd love to hear the reasoning the NC Miata is not eligible for TT6 when it fits the target parameters for the class.

 

Here is the reasoning I received.


2eCQONQ.png


Edit: also noticed TT6 got pushed back down to 17:1 like it was before. For some reason it was 17.5:1 for a bit and is now back

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cabowabo
These cars are all banned in TT6/ST6, and with TTD going away next year they will no longer be competitive anywhere.

I have several people in my region that will no longer run TT based on these rules next year.

 

This is a ridiculous claim imo. These cars all slot perfectly into TT5 with typical bolt-ons and pulling minimal amounts of weight. Some of these figures are VERY conservative. A guy in our region runs an NC and it was 2400 without driver before removing interior and so on for cage, can clearly also make more than 135whp pretty easily, which is what my NA with BP4W makes. Also have a friend running a BRZ in TTD that makes 172whp avg and is 2600lbs having done nothing fancy and will have no issues slotting right into TT5.


Letting them into TT6 means showing up with true "poverty" class cars like a NA Miata or the Saturn that was at champs this past weekend is completely pointless. Obviously I have what seems to be a little bit of a dog in the fight having a TTE Miata that slots right into TT6, but regardless of that my tentative plan is to head to ST5/TT5 regardless, because we have a ton of people moving that direction in Texas Region vs getting discouraged.

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patmickelson

I completely agree. I think the BRZ is one of the best options out there for a budget-minded, dual-purpose car. For me to be even close to competitive in TT5 I'd have to put a ton of money into the car, gut it, and spend several thousand dollars on tires each year. And even then I would be a few seconds off the pace. I, too, have considered dropping out of TT5, as I wouldn't even be close. What a shame.

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srproductions
Agreed, we don't need more classes. However, I'd love to hear the reasoning the NC Miata is not eligible for TT6 when it fits the target parameters for the class.

 

Here is the reasoning I received.


2eCQONQ.png


Edit: also noticed TT6 got pushed back down to 17:1 like it was before. For some reason it was 17.5:1 for a bit and is now back

 


Isn't the reason the NC is not allowed in Spec Miata because it is a totally different car then the NA/NB and parts are not interchangeable between them?

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rherold9
Isn't the reason the NC is not allowed in Spec Miata because it is a totally different car then the NA/NB and parts are not interchangeable between them?

 

Idk, this is just the response I got from the head of national TT.


I'll probably end up instructing in HPDE4 at this point due to not wanting to throw tons of money at my car to make it competitive. It seems like the rules are pushing some people away that don't have tons of money vs drawing them in. Which I would think is the opposite of what you want happening and why I thought was one of the reasons the slower class rule-set was changing for, to cheapen things up. But, I'm not sure what the full intentions were. I know a few good drivers in TTD (one RX8 and FRS) at the Mid-A region who probably won't be running in 5 as they just simply aren't going to spend big bucks.

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hufflepuff

My RX8 has a pro built engine with intake, pulleys, full exhaust, sitting at 195WHP peak and less than 140 torque. I've done as much weight reduction as i can without gutting, sitting at 2930 with 190# driver. So that gives an idea of what a well-prepped streetable RX8 is looking like. It would either be expensive and result in less reliability to get a rotary to make more power, or i'd have to gut my car, which i'm not interested in doing. Hence i'm sitting in between TT6 and TT5.


TT5 is 14.0:1

+0.7 A-arm

-0.4 BTM Aero

Zeros for everything else in my case.


This puts me at 14.3 PWR allowed, and i'm sitting at about 15.4 PWR actual, which is pretty far off. I need to lose about 200 pounds to get to where an E36M3 would be happily sitting with modest investment. Changing to 15:1 adjusted PWR in TT5 would certainly get me and a lot of other cars like FRS/BRZ and NC Miata closer to the limit without spending a ton, which is one of the goals of a cost-constrained class like TT5. And for cars that are over, its cheaper and easier to DE-TUNE and add ballast than it is for any of the cars mentioned above to gain a ton of power or loose a ton of weight (they are lightweight minimalists to begin with).


I am not in favor of adding more classes, because i've been advocating for fewer classes and bigger class sizes all along. I think the A-arm modifier is not realistic, but i guess more non-A-Arm cars will have to win (like the E46 BMW at nationals which took the TT5 win by 4 seconds) to provide the rule makers with a larger body of data.


The NC exclusion from TT6 is not truly warranted, given the stock power and the fact that there's still the A-arm to level the field against, say, 325 E30.

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hufflepuff
Isn't the reason the NC is not allowed in Spec Miata because it is a totally different car then the NA/NB and parts are not interchangeable between them?

 

Idk, this is just the response I got from the head of national TT.


I'll probably end up instructing in HPDE4 at this point due to not wanting to throw tons of money at my car to make it competitive. It seems like the rules are pushing some people away that don't have tons of money vs drawing them in. Which I would think is the opposite of what you want happening and why I thought was one of the reasons the slower class rule-set was changing for, to cheapen things up. But, I'm not sure what the full intentions were. I know a few good drivers in TTD (one RX8 and FRS) at the Mid-A region who probably won't be running in 5 as they just simply aren't going to spend big bucks.

 

you nailed it. and i'm not happy about it, i like NASA, but TTD was a happy place for lots of us and its a big stretch to remain competitive in TT5 as written without $$$.

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rherold9
This is a ridiculous claim imo. These cars all slot perfectly into TT5 with typical bolt-ons and pulling minimal amounts of weight. Some of these figures are VERY conservative. A guy in our region runs an NC and it was 2400 without driver before removing interior and so on for cage, can clearly also make more than 135whp pretty easily, which is what my NA with BP4W makes. Also have a friend running a BRZ in TTD that makes 172whp avg and is 2600lbs having done nothing fancy and will have no issues slotting right into TT5.


Letting them into TT6 means showing up with true "poverty" class cars like a NA Miata or the Saturn that was at champs this past weekend is completely pointless. Obviously I have what seems to be a little bit of a dog in the fight having a TTE Miata that slots right into TT6, but regardless of that my tentative plan is to head to ST5/TT5 regardless, because we have a ton of people moving that direction in Texas Region vs getting discouraged.

 

I'll disagree with you on the NC completely as I own one and familiar with their power specs. Power wise on 93 octane, header, mid pipe, muffler, and dyno tune you can expect around 150-155whp average. My car with header, mid pipe, and muffler, with a remote tune flash is 154whp peak (haven't done average as I don't care too but I assume ~150whp average). My car with 1/6th tank of gas, removed soft top, removed trunk plastic, removed oem roll bar plastic, 6 points, sparco ergo, sparco sprint, momo wheel + nrg qr + WB hub and no other weight reduction mods was sitting at 2613 with a 190 pound driver. I would not like to strip the car out completely for just TT. It's not racing. Some people have different mindsets/definitions on prep level for time trial vs w2w. With the way I sit I'll be at 16.92 adjusted with a-arm penalty and btm aero. All I would have to do is add more gas and I would fit right into TT6 no problem. That would make things so nice and cost-effective for a normal NC that can still be at least driven on the street somewhat comfortably.


Now, let's say I dyno tune and change up the exhaust for more power and hit 155whp average. I'll be at 16.36. So, now I need to add aero (-0.5) and no btm aero = 15.46. Now I need to completely strip the car (just dash left), lightweight battery, remove passenger seat, etc... just to make the NC weigh down to ~2500-2520. That still puts a NC at 14.63. This is just one example. I don't expect rules to be based around one car but this seems like a common theme from people I have talked to. At least it is in the FRS/RX8 world.


One of the issues at hand is having the same expectations of prep level of TT classes as well as racing for the mentioned cars. We are expecting the above TT cars to be fully pepped race cars just without a cage to be competitive? Something is just off or there is a disconnect for some cars to be prepped for a TT class vs prepped for a racing class. And some of these are common cars people would want to DE or TT and possibly race or not race.


My prediction eventually is the a-arm penalty levels out with more data to ~-0.4 or -0.5 so that would hurt these cars even more to have them try to fit in TT/ST5.

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cabowabo

I don't think there should be any expectation that a street car should be competitive with a built to the class limits ST car, considering the ruleset is the same. For reference my NA8 Miata is my only car and its passenger seat spends most of its time in the garage. My seat is a Ultrashield on TDR rail. Ripped the soft top out ages ago, abandoned the stock motor (BP05) for a 99 motor (BP4W) to make more power. I've also done full intake, header back exhaust, megasquirt ecu, dyno tuning, xidas, 4.78 torsen, upgraded injectors, tuned again on e85 for both max power and TTE* flattened out at 136whp, etc. All that to be 1.5 seconds slower than a very well driven and very well prepped PTE Miata at champs. But I fully expected that result, if anything did better than I thought possible. For TT6 I'd basically run my 93 tune and yank ballast to end up at class limit, which sounds easy and all, but my car is already way more developed / faster than many regional TTE Miatas and yet still slower than built to class racecars. Letting the NC and GT86 twins into TT6 would be a slaughter, especially at a track like CoTA. Both have better chassis, much better OEM aero, are making way more whp, etc. In that case we're talking about street cars that on certain tracks would crap all over existing TTE/PTE cars. So then the same argument would exist that's in OP "These cars have no where to go."


I don't think an inability or unwillingness to develop a car is a good reason to bump it down a class and render a whole bunch of already well developed cars obsolete. That day will surely come, when the NC / GT86 are the true entry level cars, but I don't think we're there yet. Even then, I would expect the built to the rules ST NC/GT86 to be the clearly better car.


My viewpoint basically comes from the basis that TT is a stepping stone to ST, whether right or wrong. Even if you only want to compete in TT my expectation is either; Start with THE car for the class OR develop your car more, which includes very likely getting to the point that it's no longer much of a street car.


EDIT: FWIW I'm not trying to argue just to argue, simply stating a different side of the coin. If class numbers suffer due to TT5/6 ruleset and changes need to be made such as allowing the NC / GT86 into TT6 or adjusting hp/weight then so be it. The thing is, there's going to the car or two to have per class and where some rules might help car X, they hurt car Y. In my case I get bumped WAY up in classing due to running an aftermarket ECU b/c NA/NB miata ECU's aren't programmable. Not an issue for cars with reflashable ECU's. Same result achieved in two different ways, but one means getting bumped up into some of the higher 'prepared' classes, while the other let's you stay in 'bolt on' classes.

Edited by Guest

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dizzy8085

I run an NC in ST5. Yeah, you've got to really drop the weight to get the car to the limit of the rules. Doable. However for those TT competitors that use their cars as street cars. Not really feasible.


I'm really against the latest theme of NASA ST going after popular chassis (except bmw's)... Exclusion of certain chassis is against the spirt of the ruleset. TT6 should be a 200hp cap. The street car TT cars should be able to ballast up and not have to tear the carpet out of their cars they drive to work on monday lol.

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joenationwide

Part of what makes TT successful is that a car doesn't have to be fully prepared to be reasonably competitive.

But a fully prepared car will be more competitive, just not dramatically.

A great example of this is weight (based on power to weight rules).


If you take two Miatas that both have to weigh 2500lbs with driver, the street car can do it with full interior, and the fully prepped race car can do it by gutting it and ballasting up.

The race car will have the advantage in corner balancing, but otherwise they will have reasonably similar performance.


This is what makes TT great using the new power/weight rules.

But excluding these cars in ST6 means you have to level up from ST6 to ST5 and have to go with a costly build.

Staying in ST6 means you could run stock HP and stock interior and be competitive.

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patmickelson
Also have a friend running a BRZ in TTD that makes 172whp avg and is 2600lbs having done nothing fancy and will have no issues slotting right into TT5.

 

I'm unsure what you consider "nothing fancy", but to get a BRZ to that weight you have to pretty much forget about being able to drive it on the street. A BRZ that light would be intolerable anywhere other than the track. For many time trialers that means elimination of their daily drivers, which is a pretty big deal. Far from "nothing fancy" in my opinion.

If you have the attitude that all TT cars should only be race cars.....well, then that's a different story. And if we do go down that path, then everyone needs a tow vehicle, trailer, and a place to store both. Oh, and a new daily driver. Then the cost for TT goes from brake pads and tires all the way to potentially changing multiple vehicles and where they live. I know what side of that fence I'm on. Just think of how many TTers would bow out altogether at that point.

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srproductions
Also have a friend running a BRZ in TTD that makes 172whp avg and is 2600lbs having done nothing fancy and will have no issues slotting right into TT5.

 

I'm unsure what you consider "nothing fancy", but to get a BRZ to that weight you have to pretty much forget about being able to drive it on the street. A BRZ that light would be intolerable anywhere other than the track. For many time trialers that means elimination of their daily drivers, which is a pretty big deal. Far from "nothing fancy" in my opinion.

If you have the attitude that all TT cars should only be race cars.....well, then that's a different story. And if we do go down that path, then everyone needs a tow vehicle, trailer, and a place to store both. Oh, and a new daily driver. Then the cost for TT goes from brake pads and tires all the way to potentially changing multiple vehicles and where they live. I know what side of that fence I'm on. Just think of how many TTers would bow out altogether at that point.

 

In my experience in NASA NE and ME, I see cars that are street driven and trailer queens. My car is trailered because it has a full cage even though it retain carpet, a/c, cruise, heat, etc (why strip when I need all the extra weight in TT5 anyway). It's rare to see a street driven TT car win at any competitive event. To win in most competitive events it requires driving hard, which a lot of drivers are not willing to do at 10/10 without a full cage. Most of the winning TT cars in every class are not street driven.

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Ev
Also have a friend running a BRZ in TTD that makes 172whp avg and is 2600lbs having done nothing fancy and will have no issues slotting right into TT5.

 

I'm unsure what you consider "nothing fancy", but to get a BRZ to that weight you have to pretty much forget about being able to drive it on the street. A BRZ that light would be intolerable anywhere other than the track. For many time trialers that means elimination of their daily drivers, which is a pretty big deal. Far from "nothing fancy" in my opinion.

If you have the attitude that all TT cars should only be race cars.....well, then that's a different story. And if we do go down that path, then everyone needs a tow vehicle, trailer, and a place to store both. Oh, and a new daily driver. Then the cost for TT goes from brake pads and tires all the way to potentially changing multiple vehicles and where they live. I know what side of that fence I'm on. Just think of how many TTers would bow out altogether at that point.

I wasn't aware that TT was conceived to include the concept that a front running car would remain streetable.

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427R

Dilly-Dilly 8)

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Greg G.

I wasn't aware that TT was conceived to include the concept that a front running car would remain streetable.

It wasn't, and even if it was, that would be nearly impossible to achieve without a much more complex set of rules---AKA PT rules plus a few extras.

Rules are always written to account for the most extravagant possibilities allowed under them--Because, eventually, someone will push them to those limits, and if they weren't written to prepare for that, the series will die. We switched to the ST based rule set based on competitor requests over many years and polling. Everyone that pushed for this should have realized that it would require a higher level of preparation to be at the top level of competition without the more complex rules from PT. Those of you who think that the street car version of a model will ever be as fast as a fully prepped race version (same Wt/Power) are very mistaken. If you think that allowing certain models that start out with better engineering and design from the factory into the entry level class will help class numbers, you are likely mistaken. And, if you think that if those models were eligible, that someone wouldn't still build a fully race-prepped version that would make all other vehicles obsolete (including your street car), you are mistaken. That will happen whether they are eligible for ST5/TT5 or ST6/TT6. The difference is that there are plenty of currently competing vehicles slated for ST6/TT6 that given the extra rule limitations of the lower level classes, would not be able to be competitive even with the best possible full race prep.


One of our goals was to consolidate the classes due to low regional class counts in various classes, and obviously, by decreasing the number of classes, something needs to change. But, that does not mean that we need to make all cars from TTE and TTF obsolete--that was never a goal.


With all of that said, we are still looking at the eligibility rule currently, and should come to a consensus on whether to make any changes to the provisional rule soon.

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