ST6: NC Miata allowance petition

[slammed200]

I was surprised to see the 06-15 Miata listed as an exclusion for the ST6 class despite meeting the overall specified requirements and it really seeming like a great fit.  2.0L engine and 166hp rated from the factory (although I have to admit the factory rated hp doesn't seem to have much relevance seeing that dyno numbers are used per section 7.2 but that's another discussion)

"ST6 models must have 168 (one-hundred sixty-eight) or less factory rated engine horsepower and an engine displacement less than 2449 mL (cc). However, 2006+ Mazda MX-5 models are specifically not eligible for ST6"

Personally I have been tracking an NC all summer to shake it down and get familiar with the chassis, while keeping an eye on the ST rules, plans are to cage it this winter and run in the Midwest region for my debut into NASA (currently only do enduros with WRL and AER although I hold an SCCA full competition license as well). 

I'd like to start this thread in the interest of a petition to allow the NC into PT6.   Please comment here voicing your agreement, comments or otherwise.  

Edited October 26, 2018 by slammed200

[flier129]

I believe the NC has a proper place in ST6 as well. It meets the OEM horsepower criteria and isn't a unicorn chassis that will out handle everything else. I actually had a student(outside a NASA event) talk about moving to TT with his NC. I went over what all NASA does for classing and events. He's car with typical bolt-ons, tune, and safety gear fits well into the current ST/TT6 formula. NCs can make 145-155rwhp with the typical mods, 2550-2700lbs depending on what all is left in the car. So 149rwhp avg at 2650lbs puts it very nicely in 6 adjusted ratio. Being forced into TT5 has killed his motivation on making NASA events now.

I'm honestly not sure why the NC was specially excluded. Also keep in mind the NC1s are getting relatively inexpensive(NB territory) and will likely be an even more popular amateur track-car over the next 10 years. Forcing the NC to ST/TT5 puts up a slight barrier in regards to expense for drivers going up the ranks in HPDE.

I'll gladly run against NCs in ST/TT6. I believe in allowing more chassis feed into the class to promote the numbers and competition.

[Greg G.]

This decision has been made already, and is not going to be changed as we start the '19 season. 

[1jeffcat]

4 hours ago, Greg G. said:

This decision has been made already, and is not going to be changed as we start the '19 season. 

What was the criteria for the exclusion of the NC for the 2019 ST6 rules?

[slammed200]

14 hours ago, Greg G. said:

This decision has been made already, and is not going to be changed as we start the '19 season. 

Was an additional modifier for excluded cars considered instead of an outright ban from the class?  Nothing that I'm reading seems to indicate anything other than parity of a newer chassis for which it seems this would even things out.  

[arsprod]

So we'll lose more potential NASA w-w competitors because NC's are forced to compete in st5? If ST is a power to weight ratio series let's make it a power to weight series?!

[rherold9]

It's honestly pretty sad to see a car specifically banned in a class that has not even been run yet. Just because it's assumed to be an overdog without any data to prove that it will be. TT/ST6 has no competitors yet and not one session has been run but based on speculation and perception that it will be an overdog it's just outright banned. Really?

 

If the intention was to make the classes weight to power than make them weigh to power and remove specific bans. 

 

As I've tried to state before add chassis modifiers if necessary if it's proven a car is indeed an overdog. Obviously my opinions have just been ignored. The sad part as well is that modifiers for having a specific suspension  design is being used currently in ST5/TT5 as well as will be implemented in ST6/TT6 to help limit overdogs.... Why can't modifiers be done for ST6/TT6 in certain cases for specific chassis's if needed???

Edited October 30, 2018 by rherold9

[Jake@JMU]

I'd also like to know why the NC Miata is being excluded. It, like the Toyobaru twins, is a car becoming more affordable for track use by the day. We will be seeing more of them in the HPDE ranks (and there are certainly a decent number now, if not consistently) and some of those people want to keep their cars but build toward a TT/ST class for competition. The rule implemented strikes me as arbitrary (especially given the lack of discussion) and doesn't serve to increase competition or overall head count for NASA at large.

[srproductions]

51 minutes ago, Jake@JMU said:

I'd also like to know why the NC Miata is being excluded. It, like the Toyobaru twins, is a car becoming more affordable for track use by the day. We will be seeing more of them in the HPDE ranks (and there are certainly a decent number now, if not consistently) and some of those people want to keep their cars but build toward a TT/ST class for competition. The rule implemented strikes me as arbitrary (especially given the lack of discussion) and doesn't serve to increase competition or overall head count for NASA at large.

The decision has been made and will not be changed for 2019!  NC's have to spend enough to complete in ST5 that they could've just bought an M3 or S2000 to begin it.  

[rherold9]

6 hours ago, srproductions said:

The decision has been made and will not be changed for 2019!  NC's have to spend enough to complete in ST5 that they could've just bought an M3 or S2000 to begin it.  

?
I don't think the money spent thing is 100% correct. NCs are $6-10k all day atm and dropping for track examples. Clean ones I'm ignoring because why spend that much if you are going to track it.

If you are doing a TT build you could fully gut the car of all plastic and get it close to upper 2400 range with driver, 2-3 gallons gas, lightweight battery, race top, one race seat, one 6 point, roll bar, no windows, and stock windshield. With bolt ons and dyno tune you are sitting at 150-154 whp average range. Add aero with the a-arm rule and you are close to around 14.5-14.7 adjusted. So, not fully built out for the max weight to power but could be competitive depending on track.

S2K's I have seen $12-15k? I assume similar deal parts cost wise. Already $2-6k base price higher. Difference being no lightweight battery is needed or splitter so let's say $500 for those two. So $1500-5500 more than a NC

e36 M3 or e46 330ci/i will be the better buy because no race top, or roll bar is needed for TT so you could save $2k alone there. e46 330's are around the same cost as the NC Miata. e36 m3 varies but can be had between NC and S2K prices??

Now if you go into full competitive NC down to the best weight/power you are talking 2.5 swap from a Mazda3 with cams which then it starts to be a bit more money depending on doing the install yourself, new engine, possible final drive change, etc. Or you could go crazy and do gram strategy for weight and try to keep dropping weight vs power. Still $$$. Lastly, you could also just do porting/intake manifold/cams on the 2.0 to try to get it to make power as well. Still $$$
 

Now the real question is will we get some reasoning/our questions answered.....?

Edited October 30, 2018 by rherold9

[rherold9]

Well, I just got word, while not official, they are going to allow the 02-04 SVT Focus which is over the hp cap to be eligible for ST6...
 

Yet all we get on the NC/ND is "This decision has been made already, and is not going to be changed as we start the '19 season." with not a word to questions in the thread.
 

This is type of thing is really driving me away. I'm on the verge of just not running my car at all with the way things are being handled. If this is the way customer(s) are being handled at a national level why would I really want to be a part of it even at a local level? 

At this point this isn't even a question of me not being able to build my car for 5. I can build my NC to the max rules in TT/ST5 over time by spending a boat ton of money but it is now at the point of how this situation is being handled and how the rules are being implemented.

To everyone reading this post, imagine if inclusions/exclusions like this start happening for other TT/ST classes. This is the part I'm not happy about at all. Is this really fair and to the spirit of the rules??

Edited October 31, 2018 by rherold9

[arsprod]

11 minutes ago, rherold9 said:

Well, I just got word, while not official, they are going to allow the 02-04 SVT Focus which is over the hp cap to be eligible for ST6...
 

Yet all we get on the NC/ND is "This decision has been made already, and is not going to be changed as we start the '19 season." with not a word to questions in the thread.
 

This is type of thing is really driving me away. I'm on the verge of just not running my car at all with the way things are being handled. If this is the way customer(s) are being handled at a national level why would I really want to be a part of it even at a local level? 

At this point this isn't even a question of me not being able to build my car for 5. I can build my NC to the max rules in TT/ST5 over time by spending a boat ton of money but it is now at the point of how this situation is being handled and how the rules are being implemented.

To everyone reading this post, imagine if inclusions/exclusions like this start happening for other TT/ST classes. This is the part I'm not happy about at all.

Disappointing, not the SVT news but the lack of transparency

[Greg G.]

Guys, it’s pretty simple.  NASA doesn’t want the MX-5 ‘06+ chassis in the entry level ST6 class.   Are you questioning and petitioning for that chassis to be in Spec Miata?  (Yes I realize a few are still).   It was investigated in the past, and there is a reason that it never made it into Spec Miata.  The same goes for the S2000, BRZ/FRS, RX8, WRX, M3’s and E36.  The reason that I’m hesitant to post is that some of you clearly want to continue to argue about this, and I’m just not going to.  This decision was made by the NASA National Executives.  Feel free to request again next year after we get this class going, and see if opinions have changed.  

Thanks.   

[Greg G.]

Also, to answer the edits of the post above, we already have exclusions for many of the other classes.  We don’t have Non-production vehicles in ST4, and we do have HP and displacement caps in ST5.  Where are the serious Prototypes and sports racers permitted?  

Without some limits on eligibility and tires and aero we would have Z06’s detuned down to ST5, and Lotus Exiges in ST6.  We could have a detuned DTM car in ST5 or ST6.  There would be no difference between ST2-3 cars and ST6 cars other than their level of power restriction.  NONE of the current models in PTE or PTF would ever be competitive without throwing $80,000 into a $4000 car.  

I hope this explanation suffices....

[rherold9]

The reason we want to argue is because the reasons we have received are seemingly arbitrary. I see they still are?

4 hours ago, Greg G. said:

Also, to answer the edits of the post above, we already have exclusions for many of the other classes.  We don’t have Non-production vehicles in ST4, and we do have HP and displacement caps in ST5.  Where are the serious Prototypes and sports racers permitted?  

Without some limits on eligibility and tires and aero we would have Z06’s detuned down to ST5, and Lotus Exiges in ST6.  We could have a detuned DTM car in ST5 or ST6.  There would be no difference between ST2-3 cars and ST6 cars other than their level of power restriction.  NONE of the current models in PTE or PTF would ever be competitive without throwing $80,000 into a $4000 car.  

I hope this explanation suffices....

Yes, tt/st5 has a hp cap, just like 6. The NC passes the hp cap for 09+. The ND passes. SVT Focus doesn't pass the cap but looks like it will be considered and allowed? 

The point isn't on the hp cap itself, the point is on banning a car when it passes the cap but allowing others who are over the hp cap or displacement are allowed. The car could easily fit in 6 without spending boat loads of money and time to fit into tt/st5.

If we want to compare apples to apples. Let's say we go with that exclusion example for TT/ST4, "We don’t have Non-production vehicles in ST4", but then the rules say, well we need to have one specific production vehicle exclusion as well (let's just say 350z isn't allowed, even though it's a production vehicle). But, then let's also say this specific non-production vehicle is allowed in tt/st4 (let's just say ariel atom). Then we have the reasoning of we just don't want the 350z in this class but we are okay with the ariel atom. This is in essence is what is happening. If the precedent of just choosing whatever car we do or don't want to be in a class is taken, then so be it. We may as well change the rules to go spec racing. My understanding were the classes were power to weight based with modifiers to balance, ie. a-arm modifier. This whole suck it up this is the rules thing probably isn't the best way to handle a customer. Whether it's one unhappy or multiple unhappy customers. There is a huge time and money investment in builds. Whether you want to argue or not valid, data proven answers should be given, and in this case there are none for TT/ST6 as the class hasn't even been run. If I'm wrong and really off base then please prove me wrong and provide data and with actual answers? 

I would've run TT6 2019 making a higher class count better contingency for well prepped TTE cars to beat me but now I doubt I'll be running TT at all.

Edit: now back to the questions asked - "Was an additional modifier for excluded cars considered instead of an outright ban from the class?  Nothing that I'm reading seems to indicate anything other than parity of a newer chassis for which it seems this would even things out." and "What was the criteria for the exclusion of the NC for the 2019 ST6 rules?"

Edited October 31, 2018 by rherold9

[1jeffcat]

6 hours ago, Greg G. said:

Guys, it’s pretty simple.  NASA doesn’t want the MX-5 ‘06+ chassis in the entry level ST6 class.   Are you questioning and petitioning for that chassis to be in Spec Miata?  (Yes I realize a few are still).   It was investigated in the past, and there is a reason that it never made it into Spec Miata.  The same goes for the S2000, BRZ/FRS, RX8, WRX, M3’s and E36.  The reason that I’m hesitant to post is that some of you clearly want to continue to argue about this, and I’m just not going to.  This decision was made by the NASA National Executives.  Feel free to request again next year after we get this class going, and see if opinions have changed.  

Thanks.   

It's not in Spec Miata because it's a different chassis, where as the NAs and NBs in Spec Miata, have practically the same chassis minus a few bits.  Asking why an NC isn't in Spec Miata is like asking why a Protege isn't in Spec Miata.  On the other hand, ST6 is supposed to be a power:weight class, and not a spec class, and an NC miata meets all the criteria to compete in the class, therefore I'm not quite understanding the genesis of the discussion at the round table to specifically exclude it, when it has no specific advantage over any other car.  I'm curious as to the specifics of what your guy's investigation yielded to determine this exclusion. I have no fears about competing against an NC, as we have competed against them in various other series with rules sets to control each class, and found them to have no advantage over any other car.  If anything, I would still choose an NA or NB miata over them for ST6 if somebody was handing me one for free.  So far, I don't see many people too enthusiastic about leaving them out...most of which don't own NCs.  

[Greg G.]

Quote

The reason that I’m hesitant to post is that some of you clearly want to continue to argue about this, and I’m just not going to.

We appreciate the input.  As one of you stated, this is a new class, so there is no specific data using this exact set of rules.  The four NASA Executives involved in this decision have a combined 80+ years of rule writing experience, have produced successful classes numerous times, are all racers and have at least 7 National championships themselves, have driven and/or raced these vehicles as well as the older versions themselves, have seen the results of other classes they run in, and ALL agree that they do not belong in the entry level ST6 class at this time.   We have seen them do exceedingly well in the higher ST/TT classes already as well.  ST6 was ALWAYS promised as an entry level class, and the inclusion of this chassis may result in many hundreds of vehicles becoming obsolete for this or any other NASA class.  We would rather go conservative and not permit it at this time, than to have to delete it half way through a season or after the first season.   The same goes for all of the other vehicles that the caps were designed to exclude.  As you stated, the caps do actually exclude the '06-'09--We have just extended that exclusion to the later models that were produced OEM with less power.  Lastly, those who agree with this exclusion are sending e-mails, as they don't want to get into it with you guys. 

[arsprod]

12 hours ago, Greg G. said:

We appreciate the input.  As one of you stated, this is a new class, so there is no specific data using this exact set of rules.  The four NASA Executives involved in this decision have a combined 80+ years of rule writing experience, have produced successful classes numerous times, are all racers and have at least 7 National championships themselves, have driven and/or raced these vehicles as well as the older versions themselves, have seen the results of other classes they run in, and ALL agree that they do not belong in the entry level ST6 class at this time.   We have seen them do exceedingly well in the higher ST/TT classes already as well.  ST6 was ALWAYS promised as an entry level class, and the inclusion of this chassis may result in many hundreds of vehicles becoming obsolete for this or any other NASA class.  We would rather go conservative and not permit it at this time, than to have to delete it half way through a season or after the first season.   The same goes for all of the other vehicles that the caps were designed to exclude.  As you stated, the caps do actually exclude the '06-'09--We have just extended that exclusion to the later models that were produced OEM with less power.  Lastly, those who agree with this exclusion are sending e-mails, as they don't want to get into it with you guys. 

Greg, while I don't agree with the decision I appreciate the explanation. I think the basis of my disagreement is the assumption that ST6 is an entry level class. I don't think racing classes are seen in this linear way any more, especially with the success of NASA's HPDE ladder program. There are lots of new racers starting in what used to be considered "advanced" classes like GT, AI, SpecE46, etc. As one of my colleagues said about PTE/ST6, "it's an entry level class where we all have $2,000 suspensions." 

As this new class evolves I hope you'll keep in mind that many of us want to race in ST6 and don't see it as a gateway to ST5 or 4. And most importantly, if you can keep us in the loop about your thoughts before they're changes we'll all be much happier (or at least less angry!). Thanks again.

[cabowabo]

...but, you do have a gateway to 5 if you're in an NC. If you want to run heavy, you need more power; cams, e85, boost, 2.5 swap, etc. and/or get lighter. The chassis is very capable. Keep in mind there are cars in 6 that will be hunting for more power too, this isn't new. I said as much in the TT version of this thread, how many NA's are running around in PTE/TTE with BP4W swaps, cams, etc to make power? *raises hand* How many NA/NB's are going to be hunting for power in 5 even though 6 exists? Head work, cams, e85, ecotec swaps, boost, etc. *raises hand again* It's part of the game. If this discourages you and makes you not want to "play", so be it, but the answer (thusfar) isn't allowing the minority (NC) to protest their way into 6, become the overdog and render a whole bunch of already built, already competitive PTE/TTE cars obsolete.

Maybe the data will show otherwise and the NC will make its way into 6, but I can't imagine a built to the rules (vs regional build) NC not laying the smack down. I know if I was going to start from scratch and build a car for ST6 and the NC was allowed it'd be a no brainer. Even more so if SuperMiata bring NC XIdas to the market ? 

One other thing, unless you have a full tilt national build in your region it shouldn't be unexpected to do well in a 'under prepped' car. Texas has a pretty healthy TT region and it's still possible to do well and have fun with a less than full tilt build. If you want to build to the limit of the rules you're going to drop some coin between finding power, running hoosiers, and so on, nature of the beast.

Edited November 2, 2018 by cabowabo

[rherold9]

If this is the case, what's the definition of an entry level car and class?

I agree with arsprod about the entry level class stigma and cars out there in comparison. If you are looking for a true base class there would be spending limits on modifications? No? Don't think banning a specific chassis alleviates that problem

I feel like a normal process would be allow cars to run, update rules to balance, and remove cars as necessary. Instead we go from Point A->Point C. We are then basing data of the car doing well in 5 to see if it will be allowed in 6? If there is belief the NC can do so well in 5 there shouldn't be fear of removing them from 6 if necessary. Just a thought.

Side note: NC Miata already has MCS so no point of waiting on Xida's

I think having an open discussion on rules would significantly improve the process for the people who have to drive by the rules. ie. look at the GTS discussion. Instead there is a huge breakdown, it will cause people to argue, get upset, etc. if they seem like they are talking to a brick wall and are not hearing any reasoning. An open forum to say "hey everyone, we are thinking of doing this change in the rules, please give us feedback to see if we can hopefully come to a happy medium, and if we can't this is our reasoning". I think that would go a very long way. It builds transparency and a feeling that at least your thoughts were acknowledged which is huge.

Edited November 2, 2018 by rherold9