GSR tub Type-R motor what class

[acurasquirrel]

What class would I be in with a GSR tub and a Integra Type-R motor. No mods that would put me in H1 on the motor or tub. I will be running a GSR ECU that has been reprogrammed to a STOCK type-R basemap.

[ITAIntegraLS]

you will defenitley be in H1.

[acurasquirrel]

Any reason for this I mean I understand why I couldnt run in H3, but I would actually be at a disadvantage for H2 due to not running a DC2R chassis.

[ITAIntegraLS]

See the rules say if you swap the engine to better one its s hybrid then. That will put you in H1. Un less you can get them to bend the rules and let you race in H2. Rules: http://hondachallenge.com/honda_challenge_rules.pdf

 

Any reason for this I mean I understand why I couldnt run in H3, but I would actually be at a disadvantage for H2 due to not running a DC2R chassis.

[acurasquirrel]

True but it also says you can swap chassis as long as it doesnt give you and unfair advantage, ie you cant run a DC2R chassis in H3 with a gsr motor, so whats keeping me from saying i downgraded tubs? I know by definition its a hybrid, but also this engine did come in an integra of the same body style. I just think it would be more competitive in H2 unless I spent alot of money on valvetrain.

[civicrr]

Those are the two ways to look @ this combo. Both of the above comments/ways could be interpted as correct. It would depend on how you presented it.

 

This isn't a case where a ITR motor is being installed into a 'chassis' it didn't come in as would be the case with a swap into a Civic or CRX.

 

If you came to me saying that the ITR tub was too damaged to repair, then yes, it is a legal chassis swap. I would place you into H2.

[ITAIntegraLS]

Lets say you are right and he doesent have proof(then H1 he goes?). And what if its a JDM typeR engine then again he will end up in H1.

 

 

 

Those are the two ways to look @ this combo. Both of the above comments/ways could be interpted as correct. It would depend on how you presented it.

 

This isn't a case where a ITR motor is being installed into a 'chassis' it didn't come in as would be the case with a swap into a Civic or CRX.

 

If you came to me saying that the ITR tub was too damaged to repair, then yes, it is a legal chassis swap. I would place you into H2.

[acurasquirrel]

Its a USDM motor which can be identified by the B18C5 instead of just B18C for JDM ITR motors.

[ITAIntegraLS]

Here is what the rules say

 

 

12.1 Body Swaps

a) Vehicle body swaps are permitted in the event of a collision that renders a car’s tub “unusable.”

b) The body swapped into must have no structural advantages over the original body.

c) The trim level of the car as it is classed for competition must remain intact. Mixing and matching of trim levels is not permitted. Examples of body swaps:

Legal: A H3 Integra GS-R may be rebuilt from an Integra RS tub. The “advantages” of the RS shell are the lack of sunroof and ABS – both of which may be removed under these rules.

Illegal: An H3 Integra GS-R may not be rebuilt using an Integra Type R shell. The Type R shell has structural reinforcements that are not available on RS/LS/GS/GS-R Integras.

 

 

Its a USDM motor which can be identified by the B18C5 instead of just B18C for JDM ITR motors.

[civicrr]

Read the last two lines of your post.

 

He isn't trying to race it in the class that the GS-R would race in. He would race it in the class that the ITR would race in. His post leads me to assume that he will be installing the rest of the ITR running gear, like programed ecu, etc. In other words, he will be doing a 'chassis swap'. It is important that this happen for a 'chassis swap'. Sorry, I forgot to mention this earlier. No advantage is gained (chassis) by doing this.

 

True is JDM engine, then H1 is the only place to race according to HC rules. Apparently, not the case here.

 

acurasquirrel, what region will you be racing in? You could get the opinion of the region HC leader. These classing decisions will need to go thru him/her.

 

If you will be racing in NorCal, you already know where I will place you.

[ITAIntegraLS]

First I tought he was gonna use a JDm engine. And Asked and its a US engine then yes it is just a TUB swap. SO H2. He didnt mention the origing of the engine.

 

 

Read the last two lines of your post.

 

He isn't trying to race it in the class that the GS-R would race in. He would race it in the class that the ITR would race in. His post leads me to assume that he will be installing the rest of the ITR running gear, like programed ecu, etc. In other words, he will be doing a 'chassis swap'. It is important that this happen for a 'chassis swap'. Sorry, I forgot to mention this earlier. No advantage is gained (chassis) by doing this.

 

True is JDM engine, then H1 is the only place to race according to HC rules. Apparently, not the case here.

 

acurasquirrel, what region will you be racing in? You could get the opinion of the region HC leader. These classing decisions will need to go thru him/her.

 

If you will be racing in NorCal, you already know where I will place you.

[Willard]

H1 due to the ECU changes. Shell issue = who knows.

[SPiFF]

H1 since the ITR and all other Integra tubs are different. Mixing tubs and engines means H1.

[civicrr]

Willard,

This is taken from the regular class rules.

"rule 9.1 j) Any OEM Honda ECU may be used, provided it plugs into an unmodified wiring harness, and may be relocated ONLY to facilitate cage installation. Reprogramming of OEM ECU is allowed."

 

Spiff,

The tubs are not different other than the ITR chassis has additional stiffening. What dimensions are different? Is there an "structural advantage" to the GS-R tub over the ITR? This is specifically pointed out in the example. Use a little reverse logic here. He will be @ a disadvantage with a standard chassis. The point is moot anyway. The installation of a good cage combined with the liberal rule (section 10.0 k) Cars may add stayrod(s) between the shock towers and/or lower suspension mounting points) will get him the stiffness back.

[acurasquirrel]

H1 since the ITR and all other Integra tubs are different. Mixing tubs and engines means H1.

 

 

Well then whats the difference between someone with an RS putting a GSR motor in their and running H3 which is permitted and what Im doing. Specifically in the rules state you can swap a RS for a GSR tub in which case you actually gain an advantage while what I would be doing is a disadvantage. I would run a stock ITR ecu but the car is OBD1 so using the existing system is alot less complicated, and I only would use a stock ITR basemap no hondata or other standalone.

[Paul Bloomberg]

What could I do to get my ITR considered a hybrid???

 

Paul

[civicrr]

What could I do to get my ITR considered a hybrid???

 

Paul

 

Motors/drivetrains are suppose to have come in that car in the USDM.

 

Swap your drivetrain into a different chassis e.g. a Civic or CRX or a different year chassis e.g. a 2nd Gen Integra. In either case, the chassis 'series' didn't come with that drivetrain in the USDM. In the first example they are different models. In the second, it is a differnt generation.

 

Use a different motor in your chassis. e.g. drop a D16Z6 (sohc vtec) into there. The D16Z6 came in 5th gen Civics & Del Sols. It never came in the 'teg. You would be dropping > 70 hp but per the rules, you would need to be in H1.

 

Use an different bottom end with the same head in your chassis e.g. H motor bottom end with the ITR head (Frankenstein motor).

 

Prep your motor beyond H2. e.g. use the H1 prep rules for the head.

e.g. use JDM parts in the motor. e.g. change out the fuel rail and/or injectors.

 

Do other stuff which is only legal in H1. e.g. relocate the battery from the stock position.

[Paul Bloomberg]

OK...I get it I am new to the HC...

 

I was really concerned about the ITR not being competitive at the 2575lbs in H1. Especially when looking at the power to weight ratio's of the hybrid's, but after looking at the results HCE... the lap time differences from from H1 to H2 ITR's isn't to bad. The hybrids appear to have won all of the races though....

I'll have to get some single bodied shocks in the future to move back into H2.

Paul

[ITAIntegraLS]

Dont worry you will be just fine. Just build you car to the new HC rules and dont do what it doesent say to do. Talk to some racers at the next event and you will get a better idea what to do. GOOD LUCK

 

 

OK...I get it I am new to the HC...

 

I was really concerned about the ITR not being competitive at the 2575lbs in H1. Especially when looking at the power to weight ratio's of the hybrid's, but after looking at the results HCE... the lap time differences from from H1 to H2 ITR's isn't to bad. The hybrids appear to have won all of the races though....

I'll have to get some single bodied shocks in the future to move back into H2.

Paul

[Warren]

You are missing the point. You cannot put an ITR motor in a GSR tub and get classified as H2. It's a hybrid at that point. H1.

 

ITR shells are different from other Integra shells. Simple as that.

 

Warren

[TeamFlewellen]

Guys,

Sorry to continue this arguement, but I see another problem here, my first race last year with the same car/engine config as the gent of this Discussion, last year my first race in HC Norcal was as a H2 car as long as others did not protest or did'nt show up, well a guess someone did so I was put up to H1.

The problem was last year hybrids weighed in some cases 500lbs less then my car (my car weight around 2400lbs with full tank gas) and 2,600lbs with me in it, well at Infeneon last year some guys were flat-out blowing my "doors off" I realize that Ryan has brought the min weight up to 2,200 but this past winter, and i have try to lose weight "me and car" to no avail i guess i could go onto a 2.0ltr block but then my car would not be elig for other series.

My point is that their really should not be problem running a GSR body as Type R as long as the running gear is the same, they even allow this in USTCC as long as it is agreed by the race director.

I personaly have seen this other series, mostly to keep car counts tho in agree about having hybirds but my they show be listed as UNLIMITED both weight and engine displacement, like what me and Tom Lepper use to run years ago in NASA I think the term came from the drag racing sceen.

Another suggestion is to limit tire size for hybirds because many of us "closely to stock cars" because some of us run are cars in different series and cannot afford to go all out with the motors.

Clyde

[civicrr]

Clyde,

You have an email.

 

Acurasquirrel,

What region are you running in? Have you discussed this with your region's Group Leader? Nobody else who has commented on this thread is a Group Leader. I am. I have discussed this with Ryan, who is the National Leader. We are in agreement on this issue in regards to the spirit & the letter of the rules.

 

I am still waiting for someone to show me where dimensionally a ITR & a 3rd gen. GSR/RS/LS are different. I don't want to hear about the chassis stays. Those are legal to add, period. I don't want to hear about factory weight - we use a min. race weight. This ain't the other sanctioning body where your vin# must match the model. This is within the rules.

[SPiFF]

I am still waiting for someone to show me where dimensionally a ITR & a 3rd gen. GSR/RS/LS are different.

 

 

They ARE different. Now 20 years from now when Type-R parts are hard to find and tubs have all been wrecked or stolen, we might consider allowing H2 ITRs to be built out of other Integra parts. Until then I would hope we consider the ITR to be different then the other Integras. Sounds like too big of a hole in the rules to me.

[civicrr]

Spiff,

Nice work. Good info. You showed that there are structural differences in the car. Differences which benefit the ITR & put the GSR/RS/LS chassis at a disadvantage. (Personally, I think the addition of a good cage will negate most of those advantages.) We are still discussing trim levels of the same car.

 

I still haven't been shown where 'dimensionally' it is different. Is there a difference in wheelbase, track, chassis length or width? How does using a chassis other than a ITR give me a performance advantage?

 

The wording on this section of the rules has not been changed from the original version published in the ECHC in 2002. The literal meaning, as laid out, means it is legal. It seems to me that real ITR's are already pretty rare compared to the regular Integra.

 

Lets assume that we do change it. What happens to those who already did the swap? What happens to those who are under construction but miss the cutoff? What happens those who don't do it in season 2xxx & next season it is legal? Someone tell how this is a fair rule to change.

[jlucas]

Don't change the rule. Why bash up Type R bodies? Motor and brake size is all that matters in putting a Type R drivetrain into a non-Type R body, everything else can be modified by the rules anyway.