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Tightening up the specs?


Tim Comeau

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Though no action is planned right now, I've been part of several discussions lately about tightening up the specs with respect to shocks, torsions, springs (length and poundage), sway bars and headers. Some drivers are interested in making the cars even more equal!

I'm not bringing this up for any other reason than that we all need to know what the other guys are thinking.

Again, no action right now, but post some thoughts if you want, including leaving the rules as is.

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Well, as far as all the suspension mods you listed, having some choice I think is a good thing. There needs to be enough lattitude to set up a car to your preferences (didn't Joe say that there was a guy on stock t-bars that was just as fast as everone else?)

 

As far as headers go, the msds better stay be legal as I bought one almost a year ago to replace a cracked stock tubular and finally got around to having it put in last week!

 

-jay

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Tim,

 

Although I am VERY tired of this talk about changing the rules...which always costs SOMEONE money.... I don't really care AS LONG AS

 

1) YOU KEEP PARITY WITHIN THE CLASSES....

2) Give plenty of notice.

 

If you change the NASA rules and don't change the POC rules, then you will force people to make a choice between the classes. This will make both organizations smaller....

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I guess I'm lazy. By that I mean I can't be bothered with chasing the best setup or fastest guys. Well, I don't want to. I think I have the setup sold to me originally that many guys run. The 30mm, Koni Yellow, 400#, Adj. Welts setup. That was the appeal of the class for me.

 

I see classes elsewhere being destroyed by spending to be the fastest. Truely destroyed. I'd hate to see that happen here.

 

We cannot get true spec, will never happen, but maybe close?

 

P.D.

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I also don't want to spend more money JUST to stay legal. If 90% of us run something that still leaves 10% to have to spend $$. We alway look at the fast guys and see what they are running. Dylan has beaten Dwain in TT at Laguna, has had better lap times so is his car better than mine? NO - He's just a better driver! Rick White still has the lap record in a car with stock TB's and 250 lbs heavier. Was his car better? No way! He's jusy got extra large Heuvos! Also like it was aid changing the rules will distance one set of rules from the other. We want crossover from POC/SCCA/NASA. Leave the rules as is. Unless you want to change to lighten the cars!! (Can always add ballast for the other groups!)

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My only comments on the rules issue are as follows. If you are going to make people change parts, pick something that is easy and inexpensive.

 

Headers are expensive, don't add enough HP to bother with and most of them will break after two or three years. Stock is better.

 

Torsion bars work for some but nobody has proven that they are a requirement to be competitive. I have stock and still hold an STS track record. Rick White had stock and still holds the WSIR track record.

 

Spring rates need to be a bit flexible to fit individual driving styles.

 

First rule that should be changed in my opinion. No chips!

 

That's all from me.

 

Glen

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Glen, Let's not make that the only thing you have to say. You have some good experience with 944's and more ideas/opinions being shared is a good thing. We can pick from the best.

 

I'm glad to see you guys openly discussing these ideas/options. I was hearing things that made me think we weren't talking enough amongst the class' drivers.

Some ideas aren't so good for individual drivers. Some aren't good for the future of the class. But let's get the reasons and opinions out there so people understand each other's points of view.

I personally think we should have some wiggle room in the suspension set up. I'd like to limit HP mods. That means stock headers only, but there's guys who have already spent $$ on MSDS or Bursch or whatever.

I think chips might be too difficult to police?

Making the cars lighter might be fun, but 2 things about that:

1. Some guys are pretty big and would have an even harder time making the target weight.

2. Costs more money for fiberglass and painting.

 

But it's nice to get the ideas out there. Even if they are bad and get shot down quickly, at least we know how/why the other drivers feel and maybe that will help convince others in the class as to why this or that idea is bad or good.

So who wants to swap cars now?

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As someone who is in the process of building a spec car right now, I don't think we need any rules changes. I like the fact that I have a limited choice of shocks, springs, sway bars, etc. Can't something be different and equal? For example, no one has proven that the Koni or Bilstein shocks are superior, so the builder can choose which one he wants based on his ideas of what's best and what he can get the cheapest. The Tarret sway bars I am going to run don't really make my car faster than one with cheaper bars, but they have a much better build quality and easier adjustability than some other options so I'm choosing to use them. Our cars can have variety and still be equally matched.

 

The most expensive items (parts and labor) I need to order to fully optimize my car are a short 5th gear, limited slip diff, and a chip. I could argue against the need for and expense of these items but I recognize some people have already spent the money on them and I don't think they should be against the rules.

 

The ONLY reason I think we should limit our parts selection to a certain manufacturers part is if they are a major sponsor of the spec 944 series and offer their product at a heavily discounted rate (like 50%) to racers. Why should we give someone like Weltmeister a monopoly on our cars unless we all are getting something in return?

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Good to see this discussion and that everyone is keeping it civilized.

Ideally I would like to see and I realize it may never happen.

 

3 CHOICES.

 

You either run stock parts or 2 approved aftermarket parts.

 

You start out with stock to get your feet wet in the class and when budget and passion kicks in you can upgrade to either X or Z.

 

My car is slowly getting up to speed but I still haven't optimized everything. I still have items I can change to make the car even faster but it will take me half way through next season before I figure I'll be satisfied with the car.

But hey, once it's done it's done. It would be a shame to see new guys quit after a season because they are not competitive and they thought it would be really easy to be a front runner in a spec car.

But the rules today are written to reward people spending the extra time and money to do things "right"

 

I agree that uniformity between the different organizations are most important and unless we have great communication between the org.'s it will be very dangerous to make any radical changes.

 

And Glen, the only reason you still have a track record is because we don't run that configuration any more

 

Peace

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i like the rules how they are. even though im no where near spec but one change i would make is letting people run the lindsayracing.com tune up kit with aftermarket coil. for $200 plus shipping you get extremely reliable start up and really good throttle response. dosent a set of stock plug wires go for around this amount? they sell you a coil, distributer cap and rotor and new plug wires with OEM beru ends on them. seems like thats saving money to me.... *shrugs* just an idea though, from someone who already spent money on something. good thing i still have that stock coil laying around....

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Excuse me Mikael,

 

My track record was a full 1/2 second faster than anyone else on that day. I have since run that configuration again and ran even faster. My track record in the other direction fell to Dylan by only 3 one hundreths of a second. My point was, that I was able to set track records with stock torsion bars and a stock header with no chip.

 

I also know that the WSIR records were set with the same configuration. Drivers should spend money on track time and less on parts.

 

Glen

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The original concept for the class was to keep the cars close and the dollars down. In general we have done a good job at that.

 

With respect to suspension. We limit rear spring rates. This effectively limits the front springs to range. The person I mentioned runs 250 lbs front springs (no coilovers) and 30 mm t-bars.

 

I don't think forcing 30 mm rear bars only is benefit nor is it good to require 400, 350 or anything front. Simple as that.

 

 

Sway bars. I run the welts. The guy with 250's runs combo of 968 M030 and turbo bars. Some guys run Tarrets. Bottom line is that are all rather similar on track. If there is some wild crazy set-up that may be huge leap in sway bars then we should consider dealing with that. The reason they have been free is that they have never been considered something that would create an advantage.

 

Shocks.

In Rev 0 of rules we just said no remote reservior units. Then we realized we needed to elminate expensive single body race shocks too. The rule was changed to Koni or Bilstien. Why? Both were similar cost and similar performance. Both are really street shocks not true race dampers so there performance and costs reflect that. Neither shock is considered leaps and bounds better than the other. I don't think anything has changed that.

 

Headers.

Headers were free since we could not fine a header that made any HP. So instead of forcing a stock part that could be expensive to replace (new part) and limit (old used parts) we allowed them to be free. Busch & MSDS seem to be popular stock replacements neither of which show any gains on dyno. So I have never been concerned. Now if there is magic 25hp header out there.... Well lets just say that is not in the spirit of the class.

 

5th gear and LSD

In hind sight it may have been better to not allow LSD and the short 5th.

Fact is that LSD were rare, but avalible from the factory. The 5th gear came in all 924S and 88 944. Really too large to initial exclude. So now to be competitive on some tracks one needs the 5th gear and an LSD is always a help. I have the 5th gear, but no LSD. So you can be fast without the LSD unit. Although I have not done it it seems the 5th gear has not been that hard to get and replace. Turbo's also use that ratio for 5th so the gears are not altogether rare. It would be tough however to change this rule as probably more than 50% of the existing cars would need to change this out.

 

Chips.

The idea here was they were hard to police and provided so little hp that it would be easier just to allow them to be free. Come up with good way to police them and realy conern about getting more that 1-3 hp from them and it may be time to change that rule. Otherwise leave it alone.

 

 

Weight.

 

Hey since I carry 40lbs ballast in my car lest lower class weight to 2550lbs. Sure would help me out!

Seriously... 2600lbs is good. Some car/drivers get there easily and other have to work, but this can be achieved. 50lbs lighter would probably be more work that benefit. Easy for me, but tough for many others. What is the gain from -50 lbs? 0.5 seconds? Not worth all the grumbing we will see. As for fiberglass. I am strongly against that. Just drives up build cost and further seperates the haves from the have nots.

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Good points guys, and nice body slam to Mikael, Glen.....

You know, I'm still undecided about the stock torsion bars or the 30mm ones??? How does Rick White make the stock bars work? Just driving style? Fact is, he does. There's something there and we should probably keep that choice open.

 

Keep the opinions coming.........

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Headers.

Headers were free since we could not fine a header that made any HP. So instead of forcing a stock part that could be expensive to replace (new part) and limit (old used parts) we allowed them to be free. Busch & MSDS seem to be popular stock replacements neither of which show any gains on dyno. So I have never been concerned. Now if there is magic 25hp header out there.... Well lets just say that is not in the spirit of the class.

 

5th gear and LSD

In hind sight it may have been better to not allow LSD and the short 5th.

Fact is that LSD were rare, but avalible from the factory. The 5th gear came in all 924S and 88 944. Really too large to initial exclude. So now to be competitive on some tracks one needs the 5th gear and an LSD is always a help. I have the 5th gear, but no LSD. So you can be fast without the LSD unit. Although I have not done it it seems the 5th gear has not been that hard to get and replace. Turbo's also use that ratio for 5th so the gears are not altogether rare. It would be tough however to change this rule as probably more than 50% of the existing cars would need to change this out.

 

It happened in V3 and JP in the POC. Guys spent $3,500 on whammy headers, dyno tuned, stepped the works. I dare say there is at least one case of that in 944 Spec. I admit I'm guessing but at minimum there is the option for people with the funds to test and tune this way. A way that others don't have the funds or resources to test. Just a thought.

 

Joe, do you NOT have the 5th gear? That would explain how we ran similar at Cal Speedway when I was minus the short 5th!

 

P.Dilly.

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Right, Dylan. The header thing is what we DON'T want in this class.

Spending dough to get bigger horsepower is against everything this class' philosophy stands for because then EVERYBODY will have to spend the same dough just to remain competitive! Bad news. Just tighten the rules up.

 

Also, as the NASA SoCal Series Director, I'm in contact with the NASA AZ Series Director, as well as Eric and Glen Uslan on the POC side of things. Everybody knows I've been working my a$$ off to standardize the rules among the clubs to promote club crossovers and the general growth of this neat class. You can count on the fact that I'll keep doing everything possible to continue that thrust.

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PDilly says

....I admit I'm guessing

 

Tim, We probably shouldn't start changing rules (which WILL cost people money) because people GUESS that there may be ONE case of someone WORKING on a set of stepped headers, that MAY make 5HP.... even though 1) this hypothetical guy is leaving the class, and 2) No one has actually made these hypothetical headers, yet much less put them on a car and dyno'd them....

 

As you know, I tried to get HP out of headers... anyone who has seen my car can tell you my headers LOOK TRICK... but when put on my car they got 2HP and 4lbs of torque...including the muffler!, and when put on Dylans car they LOST 4 HP..... If someone wants to spend $800-$1000 to try and get 2-5 HP, LET THEM!!! I will spend the same amount of money on 5 track days......

 

I say we ban unicorns, tooth fairies and the easter bunny!!

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Although I have'nt had the pleasure of racing yet , I do have a thought about this topic.

I don't see a need to change anything. It has been expressed that lap records have been obtained in cars that are close to stock. And it seems there are cars that are certainly modified to the full extent of the rules that have not set any records or even finished on the podium. Based on this, it seems the current rules work. This is a "drivers" series and it should be apparent that the fastest "drivers" are setting track records, regardless of the amount of modification ie. money, that was thrown at the car. If someone is getting beaten on the track, it MUST be from lack of experience or balls, not the lack of the cars performance or over performance. "Parity" is already built into the rules on car prep. It looks like people are looking for parity among drivers and that is an impossibility, some people are fast and some are'nt, it's that simple.

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Who's leaving is a mute point. It's that anyone coming in the future has the same ability to make these expensive changes. Which is why I said it happened to V3 and JP and I didn't quote what I was told. I left it at being a guess. It is a double edged sword because people have spent good money on some of these things.

 

What concerns myself is that we just don't know. Somebody walks away one weekend slower than yourself. Comes back a week later having spent money and is now faster. It wasn't from more driving. Do you now need to make that change also? It would be nice if there was a defined end goal. A point at which to stop spending money. A point to just spend time driving and not tuning. I guess that doesn't exist in racing.

 

Example. Mikael left the Short Track half a second behind the leaders (myself at that point). He (admittedly) made some suspension changes and whammy, 2 seconds faster than he went before. Wow, that's a huge jump in lap times. Mikael is already fast, I don't think his driving improved that much, his driving is already good. You have to factor a big percentage of that improvement to suspension mods.

 

BUT, with all this said. Screw it. If I hang around to run 944 Spec, I'm going to spend money and do all the mods! Why, because I can! Hmmm, where to start? Add more horses, 135 aint enough. Dyno tune my chip to give max HP and TQ across the curve. Then the whammy shocks to replace my tired Koni's. Hey DavidH, can I test your 28's so I can see if I need to switch to those? You guys are in trouble now! Oh, but if I start winning, I guess that will go down to that unfair advantage I have, the 88. DOH!!!!!!!!

 

I'm starting to sway towards spending is a part of racing. Spend with the rest or end up down the back. Did TC go backwards in his driving? Or did others tune their cars better? I suspect people are doing a bit of both. Improving their driving, some of us are very new. But, we are also finding that the setup that 95% have is not the be all end all. I know I am going to start making changes.

 

So my current flip flop vote is screw it, leave it all alone. Come catch me if you can!

 

P.Dilly.

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isn't part of racing testing to see what works for YOU...

 

You could argue it both ways. Spec is spec. Can you drive car A as well as someone else? I did the Mazda Rev it Up once. All same Mazda 3 sedans, Eibach springs, same tire. Made for REAL spec racing.

 

So, which do you want? True spec racing or something close that allows testing? I think we have the latter.

 

P.D.

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Joe, do you NOT have the 5th gear? That would explain how we ran similar at Cal Speedway when I was minus the short 5th!

 

P.Dilly.

 

Well I assume I have the short 5th. I have a complete 924S tranny that came from a stock 87 924S that my family purchased in 1991. So would assume it is the .829 ratio. I have to admit that I have never tired a long 5th car on the track as this box has been in my race car since I built it. I also seem to pull on those that don't have the short 5th.

 

I think you were fast at Cal speedway since you got better run getting on to the banking than I did. Then you ran 4th to more RPM (I only went to 6k). Remember that I did catch up as we went through 1 and 2.

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We have a series that is nearly spec and low cost.

 

We allow a fair degree of wiggle room in certain areas.

 

Suspension is one where you can do any number of things, but that won't mean you will be any faster.

 

I have tried 28 mm bars and 350 lbs springs. For my driving style and the tracks I run on I did not like it. I much prefer 30 mm bars.

 

I like that we can adjust sway bars and pick suspension. It means there is something we can do to get faster. We can also learn about how these changes impact the feel of the cars.

 

So this series is great for new drivers.

 

1) Low Cost of entry / operation. This about as cheap as you can run a Porsche anywhere.

 

2) Close to equal cars means driver skill is 90% of the battle. This allows a new racer to develop as you can't hide behind a "fast" car. To be fast you MUST learn to drive well. I think that now we have been going for few years we are developing some very strong drivers. Strong infact than many "faster" classes.

 

3) Some set-up variation means you can learn how to test and set-up a car. This is nice to have still in spec racing, but vital if you want to move to another class. Heck spend 5 years in 944 spec and then jump in to V0 car and look out... you have a Tribute winner easy.

 

4) Interest. Heck for some folks 944-spec is not stepping stone, but the destination. I for one can't afford to move to more expensive class. So I will be in 944-spec as long as I can even afford that. So some set-up changes gives me something to do and think about and not get bored. Right now I run 350's in front. Should I go to 400s? I don't know. Maybe that will make me just a bit faster?

 

 

Really for me the only time I will leave the class is if it moves away from low cost driver ability racing. If it becomes who has the fanciest toys on their car then I am out.

 

Heck remember one thing about "testing" Those are some pretty darn good practice miles too.

 

 

With respect certain go fast hp making parts. If some one make any "whammy" anything I for one will want to ban it. "whammy" is just not in the spirit of the class.

 

So what is "whammy"...

It is something that instantly makes it nearly impossible for anyone else to win.

It costs and arm and a leg.

 

Now if you spend three years testing only to fine that 375lbs springs with bilstiens, 29 mm t-bars, Welt bars set just so. 3.375 deg negative camber in front and 2.625 deg negative in the rear is the hot set-up that yields .5 sec on the track. Well hell great job!

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PD - Last weekend I started at 2:18's went down to 2:17's. After spending much $$ and some suspension changes. I went from 30mm to 28 on Sunday. I spent huge bucks on one of the best instructors around and went 4 seconds faster. O.K. all I did was let Mike W swap cars with me and got some pointers from him. It is more seat time and comfort level. Dwain is probably the best driver our little cars will ever see as he gets about 10+ track days a month and has the added benefits of training. And yet you beat him in a TT situation. Racing is another thing while you may be able to catch him passing will another thing totally.

These are not high tech race cars. Some weekends we have different winners. It's been awhile since TC has won a race (sorry Tim!!) Is he slower? I don't think so I just think the competition has caught and passed him. (again sorry Tim!) I don't want to see changes because the guys who have built "legal: cars will have to change something. Get rid of headers? All go to Koni's? 30mm? 400#? chips? Some people will be forced to change just to remain legal? If this is the route we're thinking of remember the POC is not likely to change to follow. This will devide the group up more. If this is the case then maybe I'll sell the Spec car and make my S2 a V4 car and go kick some butt in R6!!

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Ladies, and Gentlemen.......Joe Paluch!!

 

He WILL be here all week, tip your waiters and waitresses..... Hello.... IS this thing on?

 

Really.... Isnt that the final word on this subject?

 

Create ANY rules you would like. THe guys that test and tune and test and test and test and DRIVE WELL will still do well....

 

Besides, I still believe that the single BIGGEST advantage someone could gain in this class......if they want to spend the money, is NEW TIRES EVERY STINT....

 

Tim, How you gonna regulate that..........

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I'm definitely swaying the other way. Allow the spending. Because I can too! So I will test a different setup. Watch out if it works. I was probably being un-realistic when I thought that everyone that started with the 'suggested' setup would stay that way. The ones up front, have not. They have tried different things. Not sure where they get their info. But we will source it out too!

 

I'm going to get off my lazy a$$ and tune with the rest of the guys. I was pretty much relying on my driving and making the setup I had, work the best I could. That's not realistic in the class. So, if you can't beat em, join em!

 

Hey Glen, do we get another crack at your track record? I know I get another shot at smashing Mikael's last effort at Streets. I have Laguna Track record until next year (for POC) and if 911 Spec doesn't materialize in the form I had hoped (needs to resemble what I was after if I'm going to spend $15-20K on developing my car) then I will chase some of the big track records next year. Vegas, try improve on Fontucky, PIR (watch out AZ boys). I think I'm less and less concerned about race results, and more interested in pure fast lap results. Where it began at the Streets and TT sessions for many of us.

 

P.D.

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