Kumho vs Toyo

[Kent L]

Throwing this out there for discussion.

 

I have run one set of Kumho Victoracer tires on a spec CMC car for the following.

 

One Comp School with 2 hours of track time

4 Hour Enduro race (Tires not even rotated throughout)

1 Sat & Sun Summit Point event

1 Sat & Sun VIR event

1 4 hour test session

And I plan on running them again for a Sat & Sun event in November.

 

Kumho's

$128 each

Slightly better grip than the Toyo's

They seem to last just about the same amount of time. Probably a hair less, but not much.

Less original tread, NO spending extra on shaving.

 

What's the point of spending extra on the Toyo's????

 

The rising CMC East series is going to take a hard look at switching to Kumho's as the spec tire.

 

Additional performance data will be supplied after the two old sets are run on CMC cars in November.

 

I Look forward to hearing some feedback.

 

Kent

[Al F.]

This can of worms has been opened so many times ... I think in the end you'll find that ra-1s last longer, and are therefore cheaper in the end. Keep in mind how long a tire lasts is a function of the driver as much as the car. Don't take this the wrong way, but in the hands of a different driver those victoracers of yours would've been corded long ago. For example, Nick Steel goes through tires almost twice as fast as I do. He's also a couple of seconds a lap faster than I am! Also keep in mind CMC races aren't that long, so the tire's ability to withstand many heat cycles comes into play. IMHO, victoracers are stickier at first, fall off after fewer cycles, and wear faster than ra-1s.

 

Then there's the whole issue with Toyo being Nasa's official tire, (what's best for you as an individual buying one set of tires may not be what's best for the sanctioning body or the series on a national level) and the end of the year contingency awards from Toyo...

[Kent L]

Al,

 

Good points, however,

 

In my opinion, any series sponsor that the racers are required to run decals and their product should also be required to step to the plate and provide the series huge dividends. In the case of CMC West, they field 15 - 25 cars with Toyo's and decals. I would be willing to bet that 90%+ of the field have not seen/received anything from the main sponsor. From what I understand, the tires are the ONLY spec/required part that must be run. For that reason alone, I would expect more from Toyo.

 

As far as heat cycles, at the VIR event we ran our fastest laps ever on the same Kumho's that were run in all the events listed in the prior post. Obviously your right, other variables come into play when you start looking at tire wear and so forth but the bottom line is that the Kumho's don't seem to be dropping off for the two of us as most would think.

 

Toyo as NASA's official tire - It appears that Toyo is only the official tire if the series decides to run it. Look at the Factory Five series, AIX or others. They decided NOT to have TOYO as the spec tire. Granted, AIX is a different animal than CMC, however the FFR series is as much as a spec series as CMC.

 

It's my point of view that any tire company that is chosen as the spec tire should provide the competitors some benefit. If Kumho were to step to the plate and offer even better prices on the tires than the $128 and offer other direct awards, I would drop the $200 Toyo's in a heartbeat. Sponsors of any type shouldn't ride the back of a series without providing something.

 

I am working a couple of sponsorship deals for the CMC East series as we speak and if the deal is not a true benefit for both parties, it won't be accepted.

 

Thanks again for your post, it's important to hear view from all sides on this issue.

 

Kent

[Tony G]

Kent and Al have very valid points.

CMC has been testing the Kumho's this year in other regions with great success(east coast and Colorado).

Toyo will probably be in the $190-$200 range next year,(too much if you ask me).

Questions that need to be resolved...

How long will Kumho have the V700 ?

What contingency do they have for us ?

How long do they last..I'm going to test a set myself..but so far so good.

Does this possible change make it cheaper over the entire spectrum?

At $128 a tire and a contingency,plus the length of treadwear,plus no shaving..its starting to look a pretty damn good.

I will call Kumho today and post a response from them.

I know this is a very delicate subject, so don't worry everyone!

Thanks,

Tony Guaglione

CMC Chief Director

[bsim]

Why do I run Toyos'? Because that's what NASA says I'll run. However, I had them on my ITS car as well, and they do last quite along time.

 

If I remember correctly, we tested in Seattle, and they were about 1/2 second behind similar Hoosiers. But the difference between 1 set for a season vs. 3 sets more than made up for the 1/2 second per lap.

 

Now, I come new to CMC this year, everybody is on Toyo's, so the 1/2 second is a moot point. We've all benefitted from the greater tire wear.

 

Personally, I want to keep the arrangement that everyone has the same tires (which I doubt would change). This keeps the costs down by preventing people from spending the extra $$ on Hoosiers, et al.

 

That being said, I'd also like to see a set of tires that can last all season, for $600 a set. That way, if we run Friday test days prior to a race weekend, or even a random test and tune Friday, and end up needing a new set, it won't kill us.

 

I don't envy either of your positions (Kent, Tony), but I'm glad somebody's looking out for us either way.

[ToTheLimit]

I ran the Kuhmos on my AI car before Toyo became the spec tire and they lasted almost as good as the Toyos for me although you really needed to put a heatcycle on them and let them sit overnight before they gained some grip. We are seriously looking into using the Kuhmos for the 25hr Enduro because needing two or maybe three sets for one race would be a big saving on tire expenses.

[Al F.]

Part of the problem of valuating the value of the Toyo deal is that we don't know the details of the deal! I mean, what's it worth to Nasa to have Toyo as the spec tire in all these series? How does that relate to, for example, entry fees for those series? I don't know, and I'm willing to bet Nasa wont tell us. So, as long as Nasa continues to not tell us, and doesn't require us to use them, then I'm all for running whatever tire hits the best value for CMC.

 

CMC Colorado? CMC East? CMC is going GLOBAL baby!!!

[JWL1548534704]

Al-

 

You lose that bet. C'mon, dude, don't paint NASA leadership as some sort of conspiracy. You see me out at the track nearly every weekend racing with you and most folks know that I'll answer any question you have. There's no motivation for us to screw any of you guys to line our pockets as we realize that we do not exist without the racers that lie at our core. Also, two out of the three of us regularly race in one or more NASA series ourselves (me-SR, AIX, Enduro; Ryan-HC, AI, Enduro) so making goofy decisions to benefit the business would end up hurting us personally, which we'd be silly to do. We try to make every decision with your interest and input in mind, so please don't think that Toyo has NASA bought and sold. We have been very grateful for their extremely generous programs over the years, but we're not going to do something stupid that would hurt CMC or any other series!

 

As to the current discussion, I would like to leave the decision to Tony, Nick, and the other leaders in CMC to tell us what you all want to do. Toyo kicks us a small amount of $ at the National level (can't remember the amount, but it wasn't huge) to be the "Official Tire" but the main benefit they offer is the cash that goes straight back to the series that run the Toyo tires on their cars (SM, HC, AI, Pro-7, USTCC, CMC). Toyo's last forever, they're cheap compared to Hoosiers and other ponycar tires, and they have a generous prize fund contribution. This makes a pretty good spec tire in my mind and I'm surprised to see you guys aren't happy with them as the RA-1's have given CMC excellent service over the years. I think the playing field is level, the setups are dialed in, and therefore I thought everyone was cool with the Toyo program. However, if you want us to pitch Kumho or anyone else on your behalf to see what we can get for you, let Tony know and we'll do our damnedest to make it happen for you. As noted above, other NASA series run on other tires and we're cool with it, but man has Toyo been good to us (as racers) and I think it would be tough for me to give up that benefit if I was running a CMC ride.

 

So, PLEASE don't think you can't ask me anything at any time and let's kill the conspiracy theories before the blasted Internet creates a big blow-up when we can just openly and honestly discuss things and make a choice collectively for the benefit of all of us.

 

See you at BW.

 

-JWL

[bsim]

 

Good post.

 

The only question I have (and it's off topic here), is just what is the 'generous prize fund contribution', and how is it paid out? To whom and how much?

[JWL1548534704]

Brad-

 

I don't want to speak out of my arse, but for CMC I think it's around $20 per tire sold, which is kicked into a year-end prize fund based on receipts submitted by the racers. Toyo send us a check for that amount at the end of the year and then we let the leaders of the group decide how to divide it up while we hold the cash on the series' behalf. We then send the appropriate checks from our account to the appropriate folks per the direction of the series leaders (i.e. pay equally down to X place, pay in a pro-rated manner for everyone, etc.) as soon as they let us know how they want it done.

 

-JWL

[Tony G]

Brad,

I paid out $150 to the 10 top drivers(points) last year.

If you run,you get rewarded.

Tony

[Adam Ginsberg]

FWIW - after my business trip to NorCal back in January of this year with a fellow racer, we heard some very positive things from the NASA AI racers regarding wear and performance of the Toyos.

 

I have no desire to change tires right now. Most, if not all of the AI racers in TX already have their set(s), and I doubt they would like to change before the 2004 season.

 

John - thanks for the informative post.

[Al F.]

John, I wasn't implying Nasa is out to screw the racers. I'm sorry if it sounded like that, 'cause that really wasn't my intention. My point was only to say that a) we had no way to put a dollar value on the Toyo deal at the Nasa level and b)I wouldn't have expected Nasa to tell us. Not because they're out to "get" us, but because Nasa is, at the end of the day, a business and they're simply not required to (and I wouldn't blame them if they didn't). Personally I think Nasa does a hell of a good job, and I certainly don't bad moulth them in any way... intentionally at least.

 

Incidentally, who do we submit tire receipts to?

[bsim]

Thanks Tony - that's what I was looking for (I'm still a learning rookie!).

 

So that means if I were to have run a set of Toyo's for a season (at $800), and finished in the top 10 (really almost top 1/2 of the field), that the tires work out to $650 a set, or roughly $160 per tire. That's a little easier to swallow than the $200 vs. $130 for the Kumhos.

 

Again though, I'll defer to you, JWL, Kent, and the rest of the series leaders to determine which route to go, as long as we keep a 'spec' tire.

 

If we do ever get to the point of looking at another tire, I'd suggest mounting a set or two on some 'extra' wheels, and having them around for anyone to run a practice session on. Getting input from anybody that wants to check them out would be valuable.

[NickS]

Al -

 

They go to Tony at the end of the year.

 

- N

[Kent L]

Pulling the discussion together, this is where we are.

 

- The integrity of NASA, and CMC leadership on this issue is not at

question.

 

- The longevity of the Kumho vs the Toyo needs further testing.

- Tony indicated that he could acquire a set to test in the West.

- The suggestion of providing this set for others to test in the West

has merit.

- 3 East Coast CMC guys will continue to test the old Kumho's

and will send a set out to Tony to take a look at after the season

- Tony and others will initiate discussions with Kuhmo to gauge if

a much better deal could be brought to the table for CMC.

- Regardless of the final decision, it apparant that paying close to

$200 a tire to the sole series tire sponsor is on the minds of many.

For this reason alone, if another tire display's the longevity of the

Toyo's, can be purchased for $70+ less per tire, and a better

sponsorship plan can be developed, it should be considered.

 

Obviously a lot must taken into consideration when a switch like this is being weighed, be assured that every angle will be looked at. Understand that the final decision will not be made without direct feedback from the racers. A switch is not imminent! However due diligence to the series requires a look into the possibility of a better deal for all.

 

If I missed anything, or you have more to add, please don't hesitate to point it out.

 

Thanks all for the ideas.

 

Kent L

[Greg R.]

We have run the Kumho before we joined CMC and found the tire to be all that has been discussed so far: better grip, slightly less wear and much cheaper to purchase. A lot of other groups use the V700 so I don't see it going away anytime soon. It has a lot of bang for the buck.

 

My crew chief and I met with Kumho reps a few years ago at SEMA and they were extremely helpful. Their design engineer was on hand and everyone there seemed very interested in helping racing teams of all kinds. We were impressed.

 

It can't hurt to look at our options.

 

Greg Robinson

CMC #12 Mustang

[cmc38camaro]

What size Kumhos are being tested, 245/45/16's or 265/45/16's? Please say 265's, they are closer in height and width to the current tires than the 245's are.

 

Mike

[Tony G]

Mike,

The test were on 265/45/16's by Mike Kapp in Colorado,(he has tested two set's with really good results,and the guys on the East coast were using the 245/45/16's.

If we ever made the change it would only be the 265/45/16's.

I'm still working with Kumho at this point, so no more news yet.

Stay tuned.

Kent made some really good comments on his post,and this is the direction we are taking right now.

Tony

[racercosmo1548534707]

When AI/AIX originally switched to Toyo for the 2002 season, we were upset about it. Midway through, we were realizing what a good tire the RA1 actually is. Ross used Toyos on the #40 for two more weekends after the AIX spec tire rule was lifted. AIX turned away from Toyo mainly to allow the larger sizes that Hoosier and Kumho offer. Toyo makes a 335, but only in 18".

 

During the last event at Thunderhill, Guy switched to one weekend old Hoosiers and ran AIX for the Sunday Race. That along with losing 80 Lbs of lead gained nearly 2 seconds from Saturday in regular AI trim. Those tires are now shot.

 

He is still running on the original two new Toyos from March and two tires that were used in the November 2002 race at Sears Point. That's pretty good usage in my opinion.