Tony G Posted September 27, 2003 Share Posted September 27, 2003 OK, have you been reading the post in the East Coast Section..if not, do it now. I had a very good conversation today with Kumho,and they are Very interested in us! They are sending me a set of tires to test and compare to the Toyo's so we can make a fair evaluation between the two. I will mount them and run these at Buttonwillow,so come on over and watch for yourself on the wear and tear. They have a fantastic Sponsorship set up for us, but first we must make sure these are going to do the job. If they work,you will love what is in store for us all !! Tony Guaglione Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsim Posted September 27, 2003 Share Posted September 27, 2003 Good news Tony - I think! Hey, do you know when a decision will be made? Not neccesarily a specific date, but are we thinking like next season? I think I've got just about 2 weekends left on my Toyos (which would cover the rest of the season) then... Just wondering! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony G Posted September 27, 2003 Author Share Posted September 27, 2003 Good question,but here is what I'm up against. 1) Testing them..ButtonWillow/Sears, and I'm going for a full day at T-hill next week. 2)Have to figure out how we run out all the Toyos,then go to these..or just run both next year and slip into Kumho's after everyones Toyo's are gone. 3) Are the Kumhos any faster??I will run both within 20 minutes of each other and find out if there would be any advantage. 4) We won't do anything until the testing is done.Either they work or we forget the whole thing and stay with Toyo. 5)Doing this only to save money for everyone,if it does not,then its over. 6) I hate changes,but at over $200 a set less and a much better contingency program, I am really interested in seeing what these are all about. 7) I go thru 1 to 1 1/2 sets of Toyos per year at cost of $800 per set..so $1,200.We get back aroung $150 at the end of the year,so it cost me 1,050 for tires. Kumhos..say two sets per year at $540 a set figuring they don't last as long as the Toyos.Cost $1,080. But I get back $150-$400( I will explain later),total cost approx. $800..maybe less. Will Kumho have these tires for us next year..answer is 100% yes. 9) Is this a delicate subject..YES..so give it a chance..please! Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToTheLimit Posted September 27, 2003 Share Posted September 27, 2003 Tony Good news and good job...If we can save money and still run a spec tire that is good news..This really shows that CMC is making an impact out there and getting our series known.. Lets see how the tires will do at Buttonwillow.. ( will even volunteer to use them on our car at the Enduro.....See how they last in the long run on a CMC car) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Trask Posted September 27, 2003 Share Posted September 27, 2003 Don't go here. I had this same opportunity when I ran the show. It was very popular to go to the Koumo's and we did it for the beginning of the 1999 season. We all got them and saved about $150 per set. We used them at Willow Springs Raceway in our first race of the season and they were fast! Blaine Butler, Ben Pfaff and muself were running the track at record times (which are not recocnized by the current regiem) in the low 1:33 range! Many cars ran in the 1:34 range. We were very impressed. At the time we ran a practice, qualifiying and two 20 minute races. By the end of the first day, Blaine, Ben and I were out of tire! They couldn't be rotated, as they were assymetric. Fortunately, we all ahd left over Toyo's nd were able to get through the weekend. Needless to say, we went back to Toyo's after the weekend and you all know the rest. Advice to Tony and CMC: Tread carefully here (pun intended). What you got aint broke. Sure they are cheap, but if you need to buy a set every weekend, well, you can do the math. Learn from the mistakes of the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony G Posted September 27, 2003 Author Share Posted September 27, 2003 Jeff is right, I remember the Willow incident. Two things have changed since then. The Kumho is different now then when used years ago. Nothing will change until these are really put to the test. Like I said we will not do something stupid. 4 sets are being tested as we speak on CMC cars,with complete amount of run times/tracks where run/temps,etc. Compare..then we think..not the other way around,so Jeffs comments are very valid! Thanks, Tony PS. Per the Enduro would be a good test too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsim Posted September 27, 2003 Share Posted September 27, 2003 I think we also need to keep in mind (or know) which Kumho's we're looking at. I know the V700's came in at least 2 different compounds, so obviously the softer the compound, the faster the lap times, and the faster the wear. I also think that with our group, longevity is key, as well as having everyone on the same tire. I'm sure that Kumho has a tire that competes directly with the Toyos, and should last nearly as long, not just a race day. Also, we as drivers will need to think about our car setups. I know that when really sticky Hoosiers are on a car, the handling dynamics change from when a less grippy tire was on there. Neutral cars can go to over/under steer, bad handling cars can go to perfect. With that in mind, a driving style change may also be in order. Believe it or not, it's just as easy to overdrive a really sticky tire (and abuse it) as it is to slide around on year old rubber. Lots of stuff to consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony G Posted September 27, 2003 Author Share Posted September 27, 2003 The only tire that would be considered is the V700 Victor racer.Same temp and tread wear ratings as the Toyo. It is NOT the V700 Ecsta..just in case your wondering. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Trask Posted September 28, 2003 Share Posted September 28, 2003 Tony, The Vitoracer is an assyemetric tire. You automatically lose half the tire life because you can't flip them on your rims. The tires also only come in one treadwear rating/commpound. I just read a tire test in the Porsche Club magazine. They tested the new Koumo's and they were junk. only got 20 laps of hard running on them. Ask the Koumo guy about that. Toyo is the best way to go. Here's a thought, run the Toyo street tires that they ran in World Challenge. What ever you do, keep the long term in mind and all the cars on the same rubber. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Trask Posted September 28, 2003 Share Posted September 28, 2003 And another thing, the Victoracer was the tire we used and decided to go back to Toyo's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmc79 Posted September 28, 2003 Share Posted September 28, 2003 Tony, The Vitoracer is an assyemetric tire. You automatically lose half the tire life because you can't flip them on your rims. The tires also only come in one treadwear rating/commpound. We (friends and I) have been flipping the Victoracers on the rim for the last 3 years... maybe it's a new design, as mentioned. There has been no issue thus far, and the grip is the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony G Posted September 28, 2003 Author Share Posted September 28, 2003 The Toyo is also asimmetric, but we run them every which way know to man kind. Its only important to run them the correct direction in the rain,but in dry conditions it makes no difference. That is right from both manufacturers. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racercosmo1548534707 Posted September 28, 2003 Share Posted September 28, 2003 As Tony said, the direction markings on Toyos only apply to wet conditions. Kumhos come with a direction marking on them, but it is only necessary to keep the inside and outside correct. They can be flipped once the tire is worn in, Hoosiers can also be run flipped to extend their life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmc38camaro Posted September 28, 2003 Share Posted September 28, 2003 Maybe some else can confirm this, but I have a memory from the '96 timeframe that the only Kumhos available were marked left side only. The story went along the lines, the Kumho found that the left only worked well on either side and delayed production of the right side tire for a couple of years? The right side specific tires came along after the discovery of a higher seam failure rate when the left tires were run on the right side. Is this a figment of my imagination???? I know today Kumho say you can run them on either side, here's a link to that advice: http://www.kumhousa.com/Racing/Faq.asp?RCID=1 Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToTheLimit Posted September 28, 2003 Share Posted September 28, 2003 we ran the Kuhmos on my AI -Bird..size 275x40x17 for three 30 minute races and one 2-hr enduro at B-willow with co-driver Jerry Brown (ASC ,BMW) ,won class at enduro and still looks good..( Still mounted on wheels in garage..) But read in Grassroots Motorsports today..The Mini team in 12-hr race at Homested used 6 sets!!! for the race.. We really need to figure this out before we make a decision Per Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony G Posted September 29, 2003 Author Share Posted September 29, 2003 Per, Those were the Ecsta's. Many are getting confused with the V700 Ecsta's.VS the V700 Victoracer. Totally different tires, as like the ones you have..the Victoracer..those are what we are talking about. Lets take all the talk out of this,test the hell out of the sets that I will be getting and then make a Corporate decision AFTER the facts are in. You guys are not worried that I would do something with out really hammering out the results first would you??..come on..give me a chance! If they work you will love the money that will go into your pocket,if they don't,what did you lose..nothing. Case closed! See you at Buttonwillow..with Kumho's,come on over and check them out. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted September 29, 2003 Share Posted September 29, 2003 I'll call you this week Tony. Todd Covini NASA Texas Ai & CMC Director Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frederickracing1548534708 Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 I have both autocrossed and road raced on the victoracer kumho and found that they are stickier than toyos and do fit on the 8 inch wide camaro rims. However they get very greasy when they get hot and lap times suffer consiberaly with the car becoming a big hand full to drive. This was true for both autocrossing and road racing. The tires also have a tendency to chunk when they are pushed hard with out shaving them, unlike the toyos which can be run unshaved with very little consequence. The other down side is that many competitors will have toyos left to use for next season. Even if we can run the toyos next year there will be a big disadvantage in qualifying if not in the race between the kumhos and the toyos. I have been on track with my car on toyos and another car with the same set up on kumhos and watched him walk away from me in the first couple of laps because of the less time needed to warm up the tires. My opinion is that there should not be a change because the result would be a more costly then predicted switch along with negative effects on performance to the cars. The toyos work well in a spec series with their consistent characteristics and the cmc series seems to work well with toyos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racercosmo1548534707 Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 I know I am not a CMC competitor, but I do think the Toyos are a better choice for this series if you want to keep costs down. The RA 1 is expensive up front, but an old Toyo is a happy Toyo. An old Kumho is an evil Kumho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaine Butler Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Don't go here. I had this same opportunity when I ran the show. It was very popular to go to the Koumo's and we did it for the beginning of the 1999 season. We all got them and saved about $150 per set. We used them at Willow Springs Raceway in our first race of the season and they were fast! Blaine Butler, Ben Pfaff and muself were running the track at record times (which are not recocnized by the current regiem) in the low 1:33 range! Many cars ran in the 1:34 range. We were very impressed. At the time we ran a practice, qualifiying and two 20 minute races. By the end of the first day, Blaine, Ben and I were out of tire! They couldn't be rotated, as they were assymetric. Fortunately, we all ahd left over Toyo's nd were able to get through the weekend. Needless to say, we went back to Toyo's after the weekend and you all know the rest. Advice to Tony and CMC: Tread carefully here (pun intended). What you got aint broke. Sure they are cheap, but if you need to buy a set every weekend, well, you can do the math. Learn from the mistakes of the past.[/quote Jeff, I NEED TO CORRECT YOU, I RAN A FLAT .33 ROUND THAT TRACK ON TOYO'S REMEMBER? THE KUMHO'S STARTED OK, BUT THEY WERE TOAST BY THE END OF SAT. THEY CHUNKED OUT TO THE CORDS. MYBE THEY HAVE FIXED THE PROBLEM NOW. I WOULD LIKE TO TRY A SET ON MY CAR AT WILLOW JUST FOR KICKS. I HAVE BUILT ANOTHER CAR AND JUST WAITING TO SEE WHAT DEVELOPES FOR NEXT YEAR. CALL ME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted September 30, 2003 Members Share Posted September 30, 2003 I am an AI/X (East) Competitor and I ran Toyos last year and switched to Kumhos this year primarily because my competition was running Hoosiers. (and I can't afford hoosiers!) - I switched to the Kumhos because of cost and what I perceived to be more grip. I ran all season last year except the last race on the same set of Toyos, they were fine until the end when they started to get 'greasy' - I bought Kumhos thinking I was going to get more grip but they turned out to be about the same. I have used the same Kumhos all year this year and I am about to buy another pair for the last 2 event(s). As far as wear and/or grip I would say that both are on the same level or pretty near the same level. The kumhos grip is good from the first lap and the Toyos need to be warmed up during the parade lap - but once warm they are fine. So in my opinion - what it boils down to is tire cost and payback in contingencies... Hope this helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[email protected] Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 · The Kumho reps have told me the V700 is good for 8 heat cycles. Toyos can work well multiple years until the steel cords show through. · In the rain, Kumhos are very slippery. Toyos are good in rain. · The side walls of the Kumho are much stiffer than Toyos. With Kumho, you are either “up on top of the side wall” or in a tricky transition to flex the sidewall. I’ve seen photos of the driven tires being twisted up, the energy stores up and then like a spring, pop off the ground!—This may have exaggerated by the lower starting tire pressure of 20 psi. With Toyos, the soft sidewalls make the transition very gradual, which is easier on new drivers coming to CMC. Straight-line traction may be a little better with the Kumho, but for CMC, I like Toyos because it helps evens out any horsepower differences. The above is one of the main reasons I got out of Cobra racing. I used these things on the Factory Five Cobra Replica I raced last year. (This is a 2350 lb. Car, 215 Hp@rear wheels, using 245mm x 45 x 17 fronts (18psi) and 275mm x 40 x 17 rears (20psi). The low car weight made low tire pressures and unshaved treads necessary. It was hard to get tire temps over 150 F with a track temp of 60 F, which helps explain how I got more than 8 heat cycles out of them. Good luck in the tire tests. I’m sure both Kumho and Toyo will provide free evaluation tires for this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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