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Don't wanna play rules games and am looking for input


Keith

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I decided that I am moving from AI to CMC for 2005. I don't want a car that would ever be considered gray area with regards to the rules and I want to make driving the main point... I also don't want to twist rules to my favor and have people wonder about my honesty and intent. ...and most importantly I wanna have fun...

 

My current car and my current understanding of the rules:

 

A genuinely street and emissions-legal 1995 Firebird Formula with the following mods (I believe this is a complete list from factory):

 

Engine and Drivetrain:

Lingenfelter Cold Air Intake (illegal for CMC)

Arizona Speed & Marine Headers (illegal for CMC)

1LE Throttle Body Boot (legal?)

ASP Non-Harmonic Crank Pulley (legal?)

A/C delete pulley (legal)

Heater Core Removed (legal)

SLP "Air Temperature Module" P/N 63010 ($24.95 - what the hell is it? Is it legal?)

SLP "Flow Booster, 1985-1997 TPI Throttle Body" P/N 22100 ($34.95 - what the hell is it? Is it legal?)

Aluminum Driveshaft (was steel, but there was a TSB for this car - legal?)

3.73 rear end gear and crappy posi of unknown origin (definitely legal)

 

Suspension:

Hotchkis Strut Tower Bar (legal)

Ground Control Coilovers with Koni DA's (legal for CMC)

Hyperco front springs and 150lbs rears of unknown type (legal for CMC)

All polyurethane bushings (legal for CMC)

Front 32mm 1LE swaybar (legal?)

Rear 19mm swaybar (legal for CMC)

Spohn Adjustable Rear LCA's (illegal for CMC, but if I weld them to stock length, legal - I checked)

Spohn LCA Relocation brackets (illegal for CMC - welded in place - I goota figure out how to get rid of these)

Spohn Adjustable PHB (legal for CMC)

 

Brakes:

Stainless steel brake lines (legal)

LS1 front brake setup (legal)

 

Body:

AI-legal roll cage built to AI and SCCA T-2 specs (legal)

I cut 50 holes (a total of 0.5 lbs reduction) in the underside of the hood (legal?)

Full inner door metal, working power windows, power mirror, power lock mechanisms (legal)

Battery relocated to right-rear trunk (illegal)

Glovebox removed (stock dash retained) - (legal)

 

This series is built (IMO) to be a driver's series and I want to be "Boy Scout legal".

 

What are your opinions on some of these items? I suppose one of my main question is about 1LE parts and parts from other f-bodies within the same model year (in my case 1993-1997).

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Congrats on your choice! I think you'll find that you can spend a whole lot less time and $$ on modifying the car, and a whole lot more time on driving by running in CMC. Good for you, and welcome to the CMC family!

 

So, here is my take on the items you listed with questions...

1LE throttle body boot: legal

ASP pulley: legal (as long as you're under hp and tq max)

SLP air temp module: illegal (messes w/signals to the PCM to actively affect ignition timing)

SLP flow booster: illegal (attempts to improve airflow through the throttlebody)

aluminum drive shaft: legal

32mm front bar: legal

swiss cheesed hood: illegal, but lets talk before you buy a new one

 

By the way, relocating the battery to the trunk is now legal, as long as its mounted properly. You can use any mechanical components from a 93-97, you can also use 98+ brakes.

 

I hope this helps. If you want, give me a call (925-408-7303) and we can talk about any of this, any time.

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Yeah, I already feel good about this choice. We will have at least 2 participants in OH/IN next year, but more likely 4 consistent runners. ...I long for my old, trusty 3rd gen but me and "Bluebird" have gotten along just fine this season. Motor is shot and I'm evaluating options.

 

Battery - I assume that this is an "about to be announced" rules change? If so, great it's one less thing that I have to do. I am lazy and I think that CMC will permit me to focus on what I enjoy - driving! Not fixing cars or worrying about rules.

 

Yeah, the hood idea was STUPID. 2 1/2 hours of sweat and effort that yielded a total of 0.5 pounds and a ton of metal shavings everywhere. Since the car weighed in at 3667, I felt I needed to do SOMETHING and this was my poor choice. Doh! The 4th gen hood has two pieces the "pretty surface" that you can see from the outside and then a second layer with about an inch of air space to the "pretty surface". These inner surfaces are where I made the holes. Can't see them from the outside (except where I dimpled the hood with the drill bit that was in the hole saw... I just took 3 pictures and posted them on the end of this "album":

http://community.webshots.com/album/99139056uKfrSV

Just go to the last page...

 

I guess one question that is buried in here is the use of 1LE/SS/WS6 parts from the 1993-1997 model years. A few weeks ago, I went and bought a new 22mm hollow, rear swaybar and it's currently on the garage floor. I know I have to dump this bar but I would really like a 35/21 swaybar setup (currently 32/19). I have been told that a 35 or 36mm front bar was a Firehawk option in 1993-1997 (I am trying to find documentation) and there was a 21mm 1LE rear bar available.

 

Lastly, I posted this thread here and at frrax.com and no one jumped on the lower control arm relocation brackets. I assume that this is because I state that this is legal. Removing these seems like it's going to be difficult with my lack of good tools. Assuming I have to remove this, anyone have any advice? Would using the upper holes and making the lower holes unusable be acceptable?

 

Thanks for all the input. This is going to be a relatively easy conversion.

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Oops. Missed a few mods:

 

B&M Ripper Shifter (legal)

Momo Steering Wheel (legal)

Wildwood Proportioning Valve (underhood) to replace ABS (legal)

 

...and I have another question - I see that I need to run 16x8 wheels but there is no reference to offset. My instincts tell me that I should run the stock offsets, but there would be advantages to running different offsets. Ideas?

 

Over at the f-body road racing site (frrax.com) it was stated that my cage is illegal. I'd be interested in input on this cage:

http://community.webshots.com/album/126797389yxzdMI

 

This cage has 8 attachment points and is fairly standard until you head to the back of the car. Instead of the typical attachment points near the top of the stocks, there is an attachment point closer to the front of the car, x-ed to another attachment point at the extreme rear of the car. The intent was to protect the fuel tank since this car does not have a fuel cell and a fuel cell for this car would be fairly expensive or a large project to adapt. I personally do not believe that this cage is a competitive advantage over a more standard design and greatly improves protect of the fuel tank. If I am told I have to have it modified, then OK but I'd be interested in input from "the powers that be" before I set about hacking my cage apart.

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...and I have another question - I see that I need to run 16x8 wheels but there is no reference to offset. My instincts tell me that I should run the stock offsets, but there would be advantages to running different offsets. Ideas?

The hot set up is the stock GTA honeycomb wheels, FRONT offset all the way around...

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First, I have to congratulate Keith for making the first step into CMC in the region. Others will follow, it is hard to jump off the diving board first though!

 

 

Quote:

...and I have another question - I see that I need to run 16x8 wheels but there is no reference to offset. My instincts tell me that I should run the stock offsets, but there would be advantages to running different offsets. Ideas?

 

The hot set up is the stock GTA honeycomb wheels, FRONT offset all the way around...

 

That is the hot set-up on third gens, not 4ths!

 

Folks say the salad shooters are the way to go weight-wise, they are the same offset front and back. According to the rules we can't get any fancy alloys.

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Oops, I was thinking 3rd gen - you are correct.

 

And I interpret the wheels rules to only dis-allow modular wheels (more than 2 piece). I think materials are open - though the intent is to keep the ultra-exotic high $$ wheels out.

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Yeah, I know the "exotics" are not permitted but there are cheapo 16x8's available with a variety of offsets at Tire Rack, Tires.com, and others. I was just wondering how far the rules really permit.

 

4th gen offsets are 56mm IIRC. 3rd gens are different front and back but I don't remember the numbers. If the front or rear 3rd gen offsets are, say 35-ish, this would be a good balance between track width and potential fender rub... Just thinkin'. I am already in multiple discussions with people for sale/trading my AI parts to obtain CMC parts and I want to do this correctly the first time (I messed up on my AI wheels and got f-body offsets instead of Vette offsets. Doh!). However, if I am saddled with GM-only wheels, the 3rd gen wheels actually cost more used than the 4th gens. This is primiarly because of all of the SLP 4th gen "take offs" on the market from the days when they converted cars to CC/WS6's.

 

Any opinions on the cage? I am genuinely interested in competitor's opinions here. I would like to assemble some other driver's opinions before I talk to the officials "officially". If the consensus is that this cage should not be allowed, then OK I can accept that and I need to have it changed. If the concensus is that this should be OK, then OK too. I am not (and do not ever want to be) a controversial figure. I want to know people's real opinion.

 

Any opinions on those stupid holes on my hood? I might be able to get another used one that would fit... I just have to get it painted... I would prefer to not have to do this, but again, if I do then I do. I would also be willing to add the weight back to the hood to save money and time if this would be an acceptable alternative. Again, I would like the drivers to be OK with my stuff.

 

LCA relocation brackets - do you think that just using the upper hole and making the lower hole unusable would be acceptable to you as a competitor?

 

Thanks for all of the feedback and input so far.

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Regarding your cage... Nasa is the governing authority regarding the rollcage, so at the end of the day you'll need a Nasa Scrutineer to sign off that the cage meets their requirements. Personally, looking at your pictures and reading the Nasa CCR, I don't believe it'll be approved. My thinking is that the X shape of your rear braces does not appear to meet CCR 15.5.11 (no less than 75deg angle with the main hoop when viewed from above). I could be wrong, and ultimately Nasa has to approve it. There's no reason why you couldn't cut that x out, and weld in more normal rear braces all the way to the back, but make sure you get together with a Scrutineer before you do anything.

 

CMC doesn't include offset limits. The limit is a practical one, as set by the fact that you cant modify the fenders (other than rolling the lips) and if your tires are sticking way out your ride height will probably have to be far too high. Feel free to play there, all the 3rd gen folks do! 4th gen wheels are dirt cheap, so that's what I use.

 

The battery relocation was actually approved for '04...you might have an older version of the rules.

 

hehehe nice job with the hole saw on that hood I think it'd be a really easy effort to count the holes, calculate the metal removed, and put in a strip of equ volume somewhere near the front on the underside. I'd happily sign off your log book stating that's an ok "repair" to get you back to spec.

 

Same deal goes for the LCA relocation brackets. You need to get back to the OEM attachment location. Those brackets include the OEM hole don't they? (it looks like it in pictures) If so, you could simply "disable" the other holes (tack weld a patch, Jason suggested JB Weld, etc) or cut the unused portion of the bracket off (weight savings!!). Once you can show the LCA attaches to the OEM location, I'd happily sign off on your book. In this case though (since it is potentially a real performance mod) you need to be prepared to prove it really is in the OEM spot, so keep in your tool box/trailer whatever tools you need to measure and verify this as such. For example, I have LCAs that were adjustable that I welded to be fixed. I keep an OEM LCA in the trailer that I can use to show any official that mine are truly OEM length.

 

Ummm...what else...Oh yeah, sway bars. 35mm front and 21mm rear is the biggest I've been able to find proof of GM issuing into production for these cars, so that's what I run. The 21mm rear was standard in 93 btw.

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CRAP! The OH/IN website has the 2003 CMC rules on it, not the 2004 rules so I have been looking at the wrong ones... This is why I thought I needed to move my battery back to the engine bay.

 

This cage has passed annual tech in the Virginia Region in 2003 to run AI (previous owner) and in the OH/IN Region in 2004 to run in AI (me). I need to recheck the cage and the rules regarding this limitation to the angle (105 to 75 degrees but I think that this is OK as is - just needs confirmation). I was more concerned about the statement in the CCR that the 7th and 8th mounting points must go through the firewall - CCR 15.5.13. However, I could invoke 15.5.17 claiming that the longer bars to the rear are the "main bars" and the ones that create the "X" back to the front of the car are the "additional reinforcement bars"... (This is the sort of stuff that I want to get behind me.) I suppose I am just trying to be lazy...

 

The wheel offsets present some interesting possibilities...

 

Hood holes - there are 50 holes. I brought them into work in a ziplock bag and put them on the scales in our mailroom. 0.48 lbs. I don't know the thickness of the steel that I removed but I do know that steel weighs 0.283 lbs/in3 (with some variance for different alloy additives). I'd be glad to weld a 1/2 pound plate under the hood instead of replacing and painting...

 

LCA relocation brackets. I need to call the manufacturer (Spohn) to make sure that the upper holes are in the stock location. If they are, my approach would be to cut off the material near the lower hole to render it unusable and also get the weight savings (hey, maybe I could weld those pieces to the hood). ...and you read my mind regarding keeping a stock LCA around. I was going to get one and measure it, adjust my current ones to the exact length and keep it around so that people can see that I am within the rules.

 

The 35mm front bar makes me very, very happy. Does it have to be a GM part or can it be anyone's 35mm bar? With Strano peddling his hollow 35mm bar, the market is pretty flush with the solid ST 35mm bars (I recognize that the hollow 35mm is out - that isn't in the spirit of the rules, IMO). I actually have a line on a ST 35mm bar and I am interested to see if I can get it without any issues.

 

Almost there. Thanks for all of the input.

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I just talked to the tech support guy over at Spohn. Nice and helpful, by the way.

 

They said that there should be a spacer in the highest of the three bolt holes and this is the stock attachment location for the LCA's. I need to have a look tonight. He also told me that the stock length of the LCA's is 19 1/4" from mounting hole centerline to mounting hole center line. So, I need to adjust to this length and remove the adjutability from my LCA's. Even so, I'd like to have a stock piece around as proof in case someone wants to question this part.

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I'm just now entering CMC, so this is really helpful for me to read; Keith, thanks for putting this out there. I have one question: I thought coilovers were not allowed in CMC? I don't remember where I read that, and it's not in the 2004 Rules, but for some reason, that's sticking in my head. Any help from anyone?

thanks, chris

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Right, Coil overs are not allowed, but the 93 up Camaros have coil overs as standard equipment and therefore they are allowed on 93-97 Camaro's(on the front only).

See the rules on our website to explain.

Thanks,

Tony

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ChrisM - coilovers for the Ford Mustang aren't legal, as they were never installed/offered from the factory.

 

The CamBirds had them from the factory, so they are allowed to retain them.

 

For those that don't know ChrisM - he is a future Texas CMC racer with a former Bondurant car. Hence, the question about GM parts.

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I think that posting my entire setup is considered a little unconventional among racers. I come from an autocross background (F-Stock) where I would tell anybody, anything, anytime with complete, transparent honesty. I think this is part of the reason that our local regional F-Stock class was so close (and typically the largest class) - we all completely trusted each other. I can't count the number of times that we have critiqued each other's driving (we all pretty much had the same setups anyway) and on the next run, that advice would make the difference for the day. I really enjoyed that and kinda miss it. Since CMC is just "getting legs" in the OH/IN region, I hope that this can set the tone for some like-minded folk. At a minimum, I hope that they know that they can come to me for honest input... Then again, when they see how slow I am, they may decide to see what I am doing and do the opposite. LOL!!!

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Exactly right.

I hand out build sheets on my car to anyone who asks, because in CMC there really is nothing to hide and makes the racing and friendships so close.

This is a tradition and the standard for CMC and the main reason we have 40cars in the Wst coast,as you guys will see when you are building up your regions.

Regards,

Tony Guaglione

CMC National Director

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Exactly right.

I hand out build sheets on my car to anyone who asks, because in CMC there really is nothing to hide and makes the racing and friendships so close.

 

what type car do you drive? mind sending me a "copy" of that build sheet?

[email protected]

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I think that posting my entire setup is considered a little unconventional among racers. I come from an autocross background (F-Stock) where I would tell anybody, anything, anytime with complete, transparent honesty. I think this is part of the reason that our local regional F-Stock class was so close (and typically the largest class) - we all completely trusted each other. I can't count the number of times that we have critiqued each other's driving (we all pretty much had the same setups anyway) and on the next run, that advice would make the difference for the day. I really enjoyed that and kinda miss it. Since CMC is just "getting legs" in the OH/IN region, I hope that this can set the tone for some like-minded folk. At a minimum, I hope that they know that they can come to me for honest input... Then again, when they see how slow I am, they may decide to see what I am doing and do the opposite. LOL!!!

 

Keith, I think that's the right way to go. Granted, I know nothing, so I don't have much to share yet. But I'm already trying to talk other people into this class in our area, and I'll be glad to pass on to them anything useful I manage to learn. Hopefully we can help set the Woody Hayes "pay forward" standard.

 

(The reference is to a quote by Coach Hayes that his players should "pay forward" to others instead of trying to pay him back for helping them. It's a good philosophy. )

 

At least if we all make the same mistakes the grid will be even!

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  • 7 months later...

could someone point me to the rule that prohibits the modification of the underside of a hood for weight reduction reasons? we have a "debate" here in the Texas region and i need some help seeing where you guys find it to be illegal. Thanks.

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The rule that says if it isnt specifically allowed, it isnt allowed. Simply ask those debating where in the rules it says you can gut the underside of the hood. They wont find it.

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