Boudy1548534717 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 8.13.1. Any 5.0 or 5.7 liter V8 production engine, in OEM stock configuration, that was originally offered in an eligible model car is legal. Does this mean year model or brand model. I'd like to run a newer model Mustang but prefer a 5.0 over the 4.6. Can I backdate to a 5.0? Boudy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexands Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 I'm no rules guru or anything, but I've always understood that any car and year described in Section 4 is valid and any update/backdates must occur within those years/models. Seems to me if you wanted to drop a 5.0 in a 96-03 Mustang then that's certainly legal. BTW: I noticed you're in Southlake. I'm in Colleyville and am planning a Mustang build as well. We should hook up. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Hopefully Tony G will weigh in here to clarify the rules, because the wording is somewhat confusing. The way I originally read them, the 5.0L swap into a 96-04 Mustang seemed to be allowed, but I'm not sure that is actually the case. I think the update/backdate rule only applies to models on the same line in the eligible models listed in the rules, so for example, you cannot update/backdate an LT1 into a 3rd Gen F-body. On the other hand, would anybody really care if you converted a 96 Mustang to a 5.0L since that body style came with that engine in 95? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 5.0 swap into a newer Mustang is allowed and within the update/backdate rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Todd, That is actually a different answer than I got from Tony during a conversation a couple of weeks ago. The swap makes sense to me, so I was surprised by his answer, but maybe I misunderstood him. BTW, I find the wording of this rule to be very confusing: 8.3. Update/Backdate Non-body ComponentsNon-body components may be updated/backdated within cars of the same manufacturer on the eligible manufacturers/models list (i.e. 1982-92 GM Early Components may NOT be interchanged with 1993-97 GM Late Components). Unless noted elsewhere in these rules. Are the Early and Late GM cars not considered the same manufacturer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 (edited) The 302 and 305 is the backbone of the series. They are going to be allowed in most all cases. I agree. Things start to get a bit splintered and can be confusing when the rules stray from that. I believe the intent of the rule you quoted pertains primarily to suspension pieces. (non-body). i.e.- 4th gen F-body parts like coilovers aren't allowed to be backdated to 3rd gen F-bodies. What specifically do you want to do? -= Todd Edited April 10, 2005 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsim Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 I believe the intent of the rule you quoted pertains primarily to suspension pieces. (non-body). ...and motors. No 350 LT1's in 3rd gen Camaros... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 I'm happy with the 302 in my 84 Mustang, but I had made a comment in one of my articles about it being legal to swap a 302 onto a Mustang that originally came with a mod motor (ie, 96-04), and my recollection is that Tony said that was not allowed when I checked with him. Again, maybe I was confused, so I hope he willl clarify the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 (edited) The 302 in the newer mod motor body is allowed. Since the 302 (and 305) is the heart of the series, the mod motor can't be backdated to the Fox body. That may be where you & Tony got crossed. The LT1 is, what I'd call, an exception to the rules. In the future, there may be other exceptions, but for now it's 302 & 305 and our little LT1 exception. As you well know, the more exceptions the more confusing it gets. We're trying to keep it simple. Edited April 10, 2005 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudy1548534717 Posted April 10, 2005 Author Share Posted April 10, 2005 In reading Richard's description of Tony's car over in his Mega-Thread, he states that Tony's car has a 302 in it. I guess that's my answer, provided Richard knows the difference in a 302 and a mod motor. Being Fords and all. It may not matter much, but I'm comfortable with 302 as I've built a few playing with Cobra replicas. I don't know dribble about the mod motors and neither does the good ole' boy machine shop I use. Scott: Yes, I'm just down the street. Give me a call for a beer sometime. Boudy (817) 703-1475 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT4Point6 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 For clarification, if needed, The 94-95's had the 302 and the 96-98's had the 4.6. The 94-98's are the exact same body style. Only minor difference was the tail lights changed in 96. 94-95 302's have the horizontal tail lights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudy1548534717 Posted April 10, 2005 Author Share Posted April 10, 2005 Well, Well. This I did not know. Don't tell my wife. For 19 years now I've been trying to convince her that I know everything. So the wider track can be had with a 302. Boudy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony G Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 Todd is correct. Matt, we never talked about a mustang mod motor car being switched to a 302, so I'm not sure what you are talking about. The rules state it in 8.13.1 And if you go to the eligible models it states in Rule # 4 that 1979- 95 and 1996-03 are in the same Manufacturers list,so yes it says you can...so you can. Also read the section on update backdate non body parts. Tony Guaglione Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted April 11, 2005 Members Share Posted April 11, 2005 Essentially what section 4 of the rules states is that the Ford vehicles listed are considered the same thing: Fords. The 82-92 F bodies are considered the same: early GM. The 4th gen F bodies are considered the same: late GM. So as far as non-body components go (which includes motors), unless specifically stated elsewhere (GM brakes for example) you can swap parts around within the Ford family, the early GM family, and the late GM family. So, a 302 in a '97 Mustang is ok. A 1989 cam in a 1993 302 is ok. A 1995 Mustang front spindle in a 1986 Fox is ok. etc. We did not want this same type of guts swapping going on on the GM side, mostly on the motor side. Obviously a lot of the rear suspension on the GMs is interchangeable anyway, since they are the same, and we specifically allow the backdate of certain 4th gen parts to 3rd gens because it makes sense and provides for more alternatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudy1548534717 Posted April 11, 2005 Author Share Posted April 11, 2005 Now that's service. Thanks for posting guys. I appreciate the help. Boudy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony G Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 Anytime Boudy. It was nice talking with you last week. Tony Guaglione Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffburch Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 What about a 305 into a 4th Gen? Thx, jb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted April 14, 2005 Members Share Posted April 14, 2005 Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Racer Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 So the Spec Engine Option is not an option for a 4th gen? I didn't see specific year requirements for the Spec Engine Option so I thought is was available for all eligible GM body styles and years, especially since the 230hp cars all run at the same weight now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted April 14, 2005 Members Share Posted April 14, 2005 Well, all 230 hp cars do not weigh the same....4th gens are heavier. In any case, the 305 wasnt offered in the 4th gen, so rule 8.13 precludes its use in a 4th gen, regardless of anything else. We're playing around with a carb option for 4th gens (you guys KILL me, why anyone would want a carburetor is beyond me ). Sam actually has one here in Ca and he's doing testing and development to see what makes sense and what doesnt. But, for now, no 305s and no carbs in 4th gens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Racer Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 Sorry about that Al, I guess I should read all of rule 8.7. Just to stir the pot a little more - if the carb was legal for the 4th gen would that allow a 98-02 with a 305? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 In any case, the 305 wasnt offered in the 4th gen, so rule 8.13 precludes its use in a 4th gen, regardless of anything else. I must be reading rule 8.13.1 differently than you Al, because to me it says any 5.0L or 5.7L engine that was offered in an eligible model car is legal. Help me follow the logic here, considering that we've established in this very thread that it is legal to swap a 302 into a 99-newer Mustang, or even a 96-and-up, which also never came with that engine. As far as why anyone would want a carbed 305 in a 4th gen, it seems plausible that someone may want to run an ex-A sedan 4th gen Camaro in CMC someday. It's a lot easier to throw a "junkyard" 305 together than it is to convert a car to EFI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ginsberg Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 Sorry about that Al, I guess I should read all of rule 8.7. Just to stir the pot a little more - if the carb was legal for the 4th gen would that allow a 98-02 with a 305? Nope - the 1998-2002 GM cars aren't legal in any config. The rules specifically state 1982-1992, and 1993-1997, with 1997 being the last eligible year for GM cars. Matt - it all has to do with the eligible manufacturers list. 2005 CMC rules, Section 4: Manufacturers: Ford Motor Company Eligible Ford makes and models: 1979-95 Ford Mustang 5.0 V8 (Cobra models excluded) 1979-86 Mercury Capri 5.0 V8 1996-03 Ford Mustang 4.6 V8 (Cobra models excluded) General Motors (Early GM) Eligible Early GM makes and models: 1982-92 Chevrolet Camaro (all submodels with 5.0L V8 1982-92 (all submodels with 5.0L V8 motors eg Formula, General Motors (Late GM) Eligible Late GM makes and models with 5.7L V8 motors 1993-97 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 excluding SS 1993-97 Pontiac Formula, Trans-Am, excluding WS6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 The rules specifically state 1982-1992, and 1993-1997, with 1997 being the last eligible year for GM cars. But what about a 98-02 with an LT1? It's not that unlikely that someone could get an ex-LS1 rolling chassis very cheap and make it CMC legal with an LT1 or even carbed 305 swap. We're already halfway down the road by allowing the pushrod 302 to be retrofitted into newer Mustangs, so why not give the 4th Gen F-bodies the same opportunity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil B Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 The original intent of this series was to take an existing street car, bolt a cage in, and go racing. With this intent, the rules were written where you could only run an engine that was available in that car. The carb option was created to make the carb'ed Mustang and the LG4/L69 3rd gens competitive without having to convert to EFI. With that said, putting a 302 in a '97 Mustang is legal because nobody would know if it was a '97 or '95 anyway. I'm unclear on why the 5.0 is allowed in a '99-up Mustang. Can someone explain? If this is legal, it would make sense that putting an LT1 in an LS1 4th gen should be legal. Putting a 305 in a 4th Gen is clearly outside the intent of this series. Just my .02. -Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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