Tech Inspection Q regarding racing seat and harness

[TopElement]

I plan on attending the Buttonwillow event on Nov 12-13, but had a concern about passing tech inspection. Not sure if my racing seat and harness configuration would pass tech inspection.

I have a Corbeau 1 piece race seat, and a Willans 4 point harness. The seat uses Corbeau brackets and bolts into the stock areas. Sliders allow the seat position to be adjusted front to back, but it's solid once clicked into the desired spot.

The lap harness bolts into two of the points where the front belt originally went. The left side is on the bottom of the C pillar, and the right bolts into the bottom of the seat rail. That is what concerns me about passing tech. It is the stock spot for bolting the harness, but it's on the seat rail, and not directly onto the chassis. Will this work?

Also, the rear of the shoulder harness bolts into the holes where the rear seat lap belts used to be. Again, not sure if this too will be ok with tech. All harness ends use grade 8 eye bolts supplies by Willans, which i suppose would be good enough considering they supply F1 teams.

 

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[JoeLee]

TopElement - read the CCR!

 

It is unequivocal on harness regulations in HPDE. To paraphrase, if it is NOT the OE seatbelt then it MUST meet all requirements of a full race spec (as laid down in the CCR) except the harness expiration date.

 

Even clearer - no 4-point harnesses. If your 4-point Willans is a 3-inch (wide) race harness that COULD take a sub belt (or belts) and become a 5- or 6-point then you would HAVE to do that.

 

There is no argument or leeway in this rule. If you show up without OE belts - and only a 4-point 2-inch 'autocross' harness you will not be allowed to run.

[MOTORGOSPEL Ministries]

Hello TopElement,

 

You didn't indicate your level of track experience in general and your experience at BW specifically.

 

If, for example, you are coming out in HPDE 1 and it is your first time at Buttonwillow, you will have your hands full all weekend just learning the track. Even if your car doesn't pass inspection in time, you would learn a lot and have a great time in most any street car or borrowed mini-van or whatever that will pass inspection.

 

If, on the other hand you are a more experienced driver and it is important to you to run this particular car, you have some work to complete before ~ Nov 10th (don't plan ECD for raceday - allow for schedule slips). If this is the case, it would help if you tell more about the type of car and your approximate location. Maybe there is somebody near you that has been down the same road.

 

Best wishes TopElement,

[TopElement]

Thanks for the replies.

 

I have quite a bit of experience, but never been to BW. Have gone to Laguna Seca and California Speedway several times, so i think BW falls somewhere in between as far as difficulty.

I think HPDE 1 or 2 is where i would go, because it's my first event under NASA control. The whole point of me signing up is to use my track prepped car, so I wouldn't go if tech won't approve.

 

I'm aware that a harness bar is needed to position my shoulder straps within the 20* rule, so I already expected to have one put in. Not sure about the specific regulations on how the harness bar is to be constructed and mounted though.

The right lap belt mounting bolt is attached to the sturdy seat bracket which mounts to the chassis, but again I'm unsure if this is acceptable.

Lastly, my Willans harness is 4 point only, and no provisions exist to add straps. I don't understand how they (NASA) accepts crappy 3 point stock belts, but require 5 or 6 point aftermarket. The lap belt is nearly identical between stock and a 4 point, with the 4 point being more secure.

 

Seems like I may not be able to attend the Nov 12-13 event, so we'll see when the '06 schedule is out.

 

BTW, does anyone know if BW is this strict when renting out the track? From what i recall, other venues don't require so much when we rent the track for a private day.

 

Thanks again.

[jp99gt]

TE,

 

Safety is an entire package of parts working together.

 

The reason "crappy" OEM belts are ok is when you have an OEM safety system. The roof of an OEM car can collapse, but so can the OEM seat, and the 3 pt belts let you slide and move to avoid crushing.

 

If you change one part only - belts, seat or add a roll bar/cage to eliminate crushing - then you no longer have a system which works together. Belts only, for example, would hold you in place and prevent movement, putting you at risk in a rollover. Adding a rolll bar and belts, but not a proper seat, means you may break the seat back and slip under the roll bar, and put yourself in harm's way again.

 

So the race safety gear - cage (bar ok for HPDE/TT), seat and belts - per the CCR is an entire safety system that works together to protect you.

 

That's why the rules are all or nothing - entirely OEM, or entirely race, for the bar/seat/belt combination.

[white_2kgt]

That's why the rules are all or nothing - entirely OEM, or entirely race, for the bar/seat/belt combination.

 

Personally, I'd never get in a car w/ seats/harness (even 6pts) if they only had a harness bar. At a minimum I'd want a 4pt roll bar.

[Eric J.]

What you really should be doing is talking to the tech inspectors for the group that you'll be running with. They're the only ones that matter as far as what's okay for you to take on the track.

 

I ran in HPDE4 for a long time with an aftermarket 4-pt Schroth harness (as have a lot of others), so find out what's really acceptable with the guys that will be teching your car.

[TopElement]

I ran in HPDE4 for a long time with an aftermarket 4-pt Schroth harness (as have a lot of others), so find out what's really acceptable with the guys that will be teching your car.

 

That's what i figured. I mean, it's pretty common stuff on modified street/track cars, and rarely to i see a cage in most road cars.

 

I was hoping to find some tech inspectors on this board, which is why i posted the question. Maybe i'll search around and see if i can get a hold of someone that tech's at BW.

[JoeLee]

TopElement - Did you came looking for the answer to your question or did you come looking for the answer you WANTED to your question?

 

You mention that you were hopeing for a Tech Inspector to post for you. Not only am I a certified NASA Tech and Instructor, as well as a Licensed Racer, I also am the Regional Director or NASA Northeast. I just came back from the National Regional Director's Meeting. All regions are on the same page regarding the CCR, which is unequivocal on the subject of harnesses. The CCR is free to download at http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules.html

 

ANYONE can tell you "I ran for years in HPDE4 with 4-point Schroths" - that does NOT make it legal. It is absolutely NOT legal in NASA at the present time.

[Eric J.]

Maybe i'll search around and see if i can get a hold of someone that tech's at BW.

 

That's exactly what you need to do.

[Shawn M.]

yeah, do that.

[bpanther]

Lastly, my Willans harness is 4 point only, and no provisions exist to add straps. I don't understand how they (NASA) accepts crappy 3 point stock belts, but require 5 or 6 point aftermarket. The lap belt is nearly identical between stock and a 4 point, with the 4 point being more secure.

 

One of the problems with a 4 point only setup that was explained to me is that there is nothing to keep the lap portion out of your midsection during a crash and can cause serious internal injuries.

 

With a 3 point belt as the body goes forward the lap belt tightens down around your lap. With a 4 point belt, the body rotates forward pulling up on the shoulder straps and pulls the lap belt up under your rib cage. 5, 6 and 7 point belts despite having the name "anti-submarine" belt do not just keep you from submarining. That extra strap(s) helps to keep the lap belts/buckle from damaging your internals.

[JWL]

While Joe may be a bit blunt, he's correct (he's from NJ, so they give it to you straight with no sugar).

 

CCR 11.4.8 says:

 

11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses

 

The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects except for the expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same requirements as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger.

 

Now, for years I have allowed Schroth four-points and other manufacturer's goodies that had DOT certs on them figuring that it met the same requirements as the "factory stock" part of CCR 11.4.8 (DOT+OEM=DOT+Aftermarket). However, after some discussion at our recent National Director's conference, I'm beginning to rethink this. I did some research over the past few days and it appears that some manufacturers (Caterham) actually use these belts as OEM, so that creates an interesting conundrum for us to solve. It also appears that sanctioning bodies, government transport authorities, clubs, and other organizations in the US and overseas are OK with these things in competition and highway situations.

 

So, my plan is to discuss this with the top tech gurus we have over the next few days and come up with a definitive answer that we can use nationwide for the end of the 2005 and beyond. Folks, we're not trying to bust your nads or be too hard here, but we do want to make sure we're doing everything possible to keep you safe.

 

Thanks and look for more by Wednesday or so.

 

-JWL

 

John Lindsey

Chief Divisional Director

NASA-LA Director

[Eric J.]

I'm sure this will be considered, but one of the reasons I'd opted for the 4-pt Schroth is that I felt very unsafe in the stock 3-pt, and not because I didn't think it would protect me as well in the event of a crash.

 

In many (most) cars the 3-pt just doesn't hold you in the seat very well. Being able to control the car is a pretty significant safety issue, and I don't think it would be too controversial to opine that control is compromised when you're sliding around in the seat during hard cornering and braking. The only reason I installed the Schroth was so that I could maintain control as well as possible, and I did so after researching the tradeoffs associated with harnesses, including when used without a cage. I made an informed decision that for me went greatly in favor of using the 4-pt.

 

FWIW, I'm now shaking out a car for racing in Pro-Sedan that I bought from the Bondurant school. Essentially all of Bondurant's cars, at least every time I've been there over the last 11 years or so, use 4-pt harnesses, including their Formula cars. Whether that's smart or not is up for opinion, but while shaking this car out in HPDE I don't have the option of using the stock 3-pt harness because it's gone. It has a Simpson 4-pt that I'm more than happy to use until I get the race seat and a modern 6-pt installed. Would I no longer be able to enter this car in HPDE4?

 

I also hope that we're not going to become one of those organizations where every detail of the rules are fiercely and strictly enforced. It's not hard for most of us to point out various details that just aren't enforced, and usually with good reason. Whether this is one of those areas is certainly open for debate, naturally.

 

Anyway, I don't mean to be a gadfly here and I appreciate John Lindsey's effort to get clarification.

[kinkyllama]

I'm sure this will be considered, but one of the reasons I'd opted for the 4-pt Schroth is that I felt very unsafe in the stock 3-pt, and not because I didn't think it would protect me as well in the event of a crash.

 

In many (most) cars the 3-pt just doesn't hold you in the seat very well. Being able to control the car is a pretty significant safety issue, and I don't think it would be too controversial to opine that control is compromised when you're sliding around in the seat during hard cornering and braking. The only reason I installed the Schroth was so that I could maintain control as well as possible, and I did so after researching the tradeoffs associated with harnesses, including when used without a cage. I made an informed decision that for me went greatly in favor of using the 4-pt.

 

This is the exact way i feel. I had a hard time controlling the car (especial heal-toe) w/ the stock 3pt because i was sliding around so much. A few days before this psot i finally installed my 4pt harnesses and wow.. its amazing. I feel much more comfortable and am alot less tired after being on the track trying to hold myself in my seat.

 

I also weight the pros and cons of having the harness without a roll cage and felt its worth the little risk there is of rolling. I can understand in the race groups as thats wheel to wheel but in HPDEs i dont think its a big deal

[JWL]

Folks-

 

After some discussion over the weekend, here's the deal.

 

Aftermarket belt systems that do not meet CCR 15's race standards will be allowed provided that they are: (1) DOT certified and (2) installed per the harness manufacturer's recommendations. I understand completely that many of you feel your systems may be safer than stock, but if it hasn't been tested and approved by DOT, we can't allow it for both liability and safety issues. Your safety is paramount to us, so please remember that when looking at this situation and your understanding is greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks.

 

-JWL

[kinkyllama]

Awesome! I think thats perfectly fair

[Eric J.]

Thanks for the clarification!

[white_2kgt]

Folks-

 

After some discussion over the weekend, here's the deal.

 

Aftermarket belt systems that do not meet CCR 15's race standards will be allowed provided that they are: (1) DOT certified and (2) installed per the harness manufacturer's recommendations. I understand completely that many of you feel your systems may be safer than stock, but if it hasn't been tested and approved by DOT, we can't allow it for both liability and safety issues. Your safety is paramount to us, so please remember that when looking at this situation and your understanding is greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks.

 

-JWL

 

So you are going to allow DOT 4pt belts KNOWING the safety implications that come with it? I REALLY hope nobody needs to get hurt at a NASA event before this is looked at again.

 

What would be wrong w/ requiring people w/ 4pt belts to ALSO use the stock 3pt belt. That way they get the be 'held' in the seat while also keeping them from sliding under it in a head on crash, although you still have the problem of the roof crashing down on them if they don't have a rollbar.

[midngn]

Contact Bob Zecca at Driving Impressions http://www.teamdi.com or 1-800-275-4667. He can clearly explain better than most why you do not want to use both seatbelts and 4 point harnesses at the same time. He has been a dedicated NASA sponsor for several years, this is his business and he is always willing to discuss driver safety with our members.

 

Jeff Koehler

NASA Northeast

[JWL]

So you are going to allow DOT 4pt belts KNOWING the safety implications that come with it? I REALLY hope nobody needs to get hurt at a NASA event before this is looked at again.

 

 

I'm not sure I get your drift here. We are only allowing systems that have been sled tested and shown to work to the satisfaction of the DOT, which is the same body that approves the OEM systems. We're not allowing systems that have not been tested or are being installed and used incorrectly. Seems like a good approach to me unless I'm missing something, which I am happy to have pointed out to me as my only interest here is keeping people on the right side of the grave.

 

As for doing three-points and unapproved four-points in combination, that's a recipe for disaster as both systems fight in different directions to restrain the driver. Think about the three point tightening and then yanking one way while the four point heads in another direction. Not so good.

 

So, to settle it, you've got to be running: (1) DOT approved aftermaket belts installed per manufacturer's regs (Schroth ASM is a good example), (2) OEM belts, or (3) race belts installed per CCR 15.

 

-JWL

[jp99gt]

John,

 

How will you handle belts installed correctly, but in cars not in the Schroth approved list? There are many cars the belts will fit, but many of those are not in the approved list published by Schroth. I understand the belts are only considered safe and proper by Schroth if they are installed in the approved vehicle list.

 

For example, the instruction manual with mine doesn't even list a Mustang past 1993, even though they fit. The instructions further state not to install them if your car isn't on the list as a "Schroth approved vehicle."

 

[on edit - I should point out I have a 4 pt roll bar and 5 pt harnesses now]

 

Sorry to muddle the waters more, but better to address this issue now.

 

If I can offer a personal opinion, I understand the importance of making the rules work so we can have more participation in the HPDE's. I can somewhat agree with allowing these belts in HPDE 1-3. I believe that once you get to HPDE 4 or TT, you should not play near the edge on the safety points, and either be all OEM or all CCR. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the safety gear works as a system, and I don't think mixing them is wise.

Edited November 1, 2005 by Guest

[kinkyllama]

Should the belts have something on them that say they are DOT approved? I bought belts awhile ago and was told they are DOT approved but dont see anything that proves it (although if could be towards the side of the seat where i cannot see).

 

Also the instruction that came with my belts for installing them only stated at what angle to mount them.. nothing else.

[white_2kgt]

So you are going to allow DOT 4pt belts KNOWING the safety implications that come with it? I REALLY hope nobody needs to get hurt at a NASA event before this is looked at again.

 

I'm not sure I get your drift here. We are only allowing systems that have been sled tested and shown to work to the satisfaction of the DOT, which is the same body that approves the OEM systems.

 

I have a 4pt DOT approved Schroth harness hanging up in my garage. There is NO way I would consider using it at high speeds (I used it for autocrossing for 1 year). There's just no way to safely install it to prevent injury in a crash, DOT approved or not. You are also assuming that said person is going to install it the way it was installed during the DOT test. I'll bet 99% of the time, this is not the case. I understand you guys don't want to be hard asses on this stuff, but after my recent stuffing of mustang into wall incident, I was VERY glad to have spent the $$$ I did on roll bar/seats/harnesses. In fact, I'm not going back out on track w/o a full cage. Missed seat time or not, to me, it is no longer worth the risk.

[JWL]

Guys-

 

All points taken and understood, but even with the finest safety equipment you can still get hurt. We've set what we believe to be a reasonable standard for the HPDE belts and this is what we'll go with.

 

As for the specifics, the burden will lie on the participant to prove the legality of the system. If Schroth's instructions don't say your car is on the OK list, no joy. We are going to try and get some paperwork on all the available systems over the off season, but I highly recommend you keep the installation instructions and any other documentation you have with you to prove the legality of the belts at tech. The other alternative is to just run the stockers and be done with it.

 

Again, sorry for the pain, but we've got to do this to minimize the risk to you all and to make sure we stay compliant with the state of the art safety standards in the business.

 

Thanks.

 

-JWL