vhavandjian Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 I don't understand all of the hesitance on having proper safety equipment and the proper rules to enforce safety equipment? I want to thank you John for sticking up for your rules which I think are perfectly justified and I hope they get more and more strict as time goes on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mavisky Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 Ok, I printed off and read through the CCR and checked out alot of the info. I've found out the following so far: 1. My sparco 4 point street belts probably aren't DOT certified and most likely aren't currently mounted in a manner befitting the ruling. Looks like I'll be stepping up to some 5 points then. 2. The CCR makes mention of stock seats and of fixed back racing seats and all of the rules governing them. Now my seats are currently modified stock seats that maintain their reclining ability, yet have been modified with harness slots to accomodate the 4 point belts I use. Judging by the strict rules and regulations I'm guessing this probably isn't allowed, but I've not found it in the rulebook where it specifically says its not allowed. If I need to replace them then fine, as I do intend to in the future anyways, but I was wondering about using them in an hpde event. I'm sure I'll have more questions, but I'll not muddy up this thread by getting off topic with them. Here are some photos though of my current harness setup. (yes I do realize that the strut bar mounting of the belts will not stand in NASA) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HBennett Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Another question comes up about harness bars. I don't know of many (thats not to say that they aren't any) bars that the straps should be mounted too. Most of the bars that I am familiar with, their function is to guide the straps for the correct angle and then mounted to the chassis. Howard Bennett Racer Wholesale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinkyllama Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 I may of missed it somewhere. What if your car isnt on the OK list? Can you not use the Schroth harness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mavisky Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 I may of missed it somewhere. What if your car isnt on the OK list? Can you not use the Schroth harness? Three posts above yours. Guys- All points taken and understood, but even with the finest safety equipment you can still get hurt. We've set what we believe to be a reasonable standard for the HPDE belts and this is what we'll go with. As for the specifics, the burden will lie on the participant to prove the legality of the system. If Schroth's instructions don't say your car is on the OK list, no joy. We are going to try and get some paperwork on all the available systems over the off season, but I highly recommend you keep the installation instructions and any other documentation you have with you to prove the legality of the belts at tech. The other alternative is to just run the stockers and be done with it. Again, sorry for the pain, but we've got to do this to minimize the risk to you all and to make sure we stay compliant with the state of the art safety standards in the business. Thanks. -JWL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinkyllama Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Guys-As for the specifics, the burden will lie on the participant to prove the legality of the system. If Schroth's instructions don't say your car is on the OK list, no joy. We are going to try and get some paperwork on all the available systems over the off season, but I highly recommend you keep the installation instructions and any other documentation you have with you to prove the legality of the belts at tech. The other alternative is to just run the stockers and be done with it. -JWL Is there any way to get your car on the OK list? [/b] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ev Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Four point harness are unsafe! There is no way to keep you from sliding out from under the lap belt during a crash (no submarine belt). There has been more than one incident where a person wearing a 4 point belt was eviscerated by the lap belt in a wreck. The 3 point DOT belt is safer by far... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandonT Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Four point harness are unsafe! There is no way to keep you from sliding out from under the lap belt during a crash (no submarine belt). There has been more than one incident where a person wearing a 4 point belt was eviscerated by the lap belt in a wreck. The 3 point DOT belt is safer by far... The 4pt belt that most people are considering is the Schroth ASM system, which is the ONLY DOT 3/4 point system that I have been able to find. One shoulder has an expansion system that allows the body to twist in an impact. There are videos at http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/docs/SchrothASMII.wmv which pretty clearly illustrate that the ASM system prevents the submarining evisceration you are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandonT Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 So you are going to allow DOT 4pt belts KNOWING the safety implications that come with it? I REALLY hope nobody needs to get hurt at a NASA event before this is looked at again. I'm not sure I get your drift here. We are only allowing systems that have been sled tested and shown to work to the satisfaction of the DOT, which is the same body that approves the OEM systems. We're not allowing systems that have not been tested or are being installed and used incorrectly. Seems like a good approach to me unless I'm missing something, which I am happy to have pointed out to me as my only interest here is keeping people on the right side of the grave. As for doing three-points and unapproved four-points in combination, that's a recipe for disaster as both systems fight in different directions to restrain the driver. Think about the three point tightening and then yanking one way while the four point heads in another direction. Not so good. So, to settle it, you've got to be running: (1) DOT approved aftermaket belts installed per manufacturer's regs (Schroth ASM is a good example), (2) OEM belts, or (3) race belts installed per CCR 15. -JWL Is this decision good for TT as well, since the TT rules call out the HPDE safety regs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erioshi Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 While I agree with the spirit, this rule alone will keep my (modified) Evo off the track with NASA, and could possibly force me to forgo all future NASA events. I might even need to ask for a refund on my pre-paid events for this year. I've been running the Stroth ASM belts for a couple of years now in my Evo. Initially I was hesitant to run any harness system without a full cage. Eventually, though, my car's perormance reached a point were even using the AutoX trick of pre-locking the OEM 3 point belt and moving the seat forward to keep me pinned in wasn't working; about 20% of my effort (and attention) mid-corner was going to keeping me in the driver's seat. I eventually realized that my driving was suffering directly as a result of having fight to stay safely behind the wheel. Eventually I decided that locking the OEM 3 point (a frequent HPDE practice) was probably much more of a potential saftey risk than just converting over to a Stroth ASM. I'm not sure if the '03 Evo is currently on Stroth approved vehicles list or not. It was not when I purchased my harness. I did look for comparable approved vehicles and then followed the correct mounting procedures. I would guess that Stroth cannot afford to sled test every make and model car that their products can safely be used in. That assumption was a consideration in my decision. The long term implication is that I probably can't run that car with NASA - it's too fast to be safe with loose or locked OEM belts. There are also saftey issues that prevent me from installing a roll bar or roll cage in car used on public roads (where helmets are illegal) so running a full 6 point harness is out. An additional concern is that any "fast" street car I am likely to build will run into the same issues. I am currently working on a second car, and I have already identified a need to upgrade both the seats and the restraint system for track days. Again, this will be a street car so a cage or roll bar is out, as would be non-DOT legal racing seats - and I'm back to being unable to run NASA events in another car. Unfortunately given the choice between driving my car more safely at other venues, or compromising my safety by locking the OEM harness and then struggling to keep control of both myself and my car while worrying about other drivers behavior in an open passing environment who are likely fighting the same problems, the choice is seems clear. Is there any way to find a different compromise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinkyllama Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 . Is there any way to find a different compromise? +1 A friend of mine recently hit a wall at ~100mph with stock 3-point belts. To say the least if he had the Stroth ASM installed he would have substained alot less injurys internaly (mostly his spleen). I realized I get over 100mph on every lap on most tracks and my car and I are still arnt very fast. I realize hitting a wall at 100+mph either way you'd probably be badly injured w/o a full cage and all the other goodies but i sure as hell would feel much better with something other than the stock 3-point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedmonkey Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 What are the safty issues of running a cage on the street? I thought most cages don't have any bars where a driver or passenger could hit them right? And why is having a DOT legal seat imortant if an FIA seat is at least as good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gairloch Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 What are the safty issues of running a cage on the street? I thought most cages don't have any bars where a driver or passenger could hit them right? And why is having a DOT legal seat imortant if an FIA seat is at least as good? Most cages have a halo or partial halo, around the inside of the car's roof, that could be in range of your head if you get into an accident. Being in a caged car, even with the bars padded, without a helmet is actually very unsafe. DOT legal is important because if you get into an accident and are injured in your non-DOT seat chances are good that insurance companies will fight you on paying out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedmonkey Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 I have not been in many cars with full cages, I didn't think the halo bar was allowed to be that close to the driver or passenger's head. As for insurance, I didn't think about that at all. Seems to me like if that is what it came to having a proper racing seat would be a strong case that it was indeed a safe seat, and that racing specs far exceed DOT specs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gairloch Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 I have not been in many cars with full cages, I didn't think the halo bar was allowed to be that close to the driver or passenger's head. As for insurance, I didn't think about that at all. Seems to me like if that is what it came to having a proper racing seat would be a strong case that it was indeed a safe seat, and that racing specs far exceed DOT specs. It's not so much a matter of the bar being allowed to be that close, it's more a matter of the distance your head can travel in an impact. Especially in compact sports cars it's very difficult to keep roll bars and cages far enough away to completely preclude the possiblity of hitting it. Racing specs might exceed DOT specs but they also assume that you're wearing a helmet and have a harness on instead of just the normal 3 point seat belt. It's all a matter of how the crash testing is done and what the fundamental assumptions are. That's why it can be important to have options other than just a seat belt because I'm pretty sure base DOT assumption isn't that you're going to be going through a turn at 110 mph in a modified car on a race track. At the very least a seat belt will allow you much more movement in the seat which creates the necessity of having to split your efforts between bracing yourself in place and driving thus making it that much more difficult to maintain control. From the research I've done it seems that the Schroth ASM 4 point is an excellent alternative to a traditional 4 point for those of us that wish to maintain street drivability, have a higher degree of security on the track and still not risking injury because of submarining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedmonkey Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 Thanks for helping to clear these things up for me. So my next question is, how about just a rear roll bar/harness bar? Something like the bolt-in Autopower. Because it stays behind the driver, and is a ligit place to mount a harness, would that be safe on the street? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowTA Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Some autopower bars aren't in the best location, there is only one way to find out. As for the CCR, it says something about 'race seat'. Would a Corbeau FX1 be adequate for HPDE, I'm sure it will be fine for autocross (that I will be attending more of anyway.) Fiberglass shell with provision for a 5 point harness. As for the harnesses and eyebolts. "All mounting hardware should be SAE grade five (5) or better. Large diameter mounting washers should be used to spread the load. Bolting through floor panels etc. is not acceptable without required washers." What is the recomended diameter of these washers and do they have to be welded to the floor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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