bsim Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 The C4 calipers are legal because they are a twin piston, non opposing, 38mm caliper - clearly defined by the rules. So are the C5's. My (and all 4th genr's) point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Tanner Posted December 9, 2005 Author Share Posted December 9, 2005 (edited) The C4 calipers are legal because they are a twin piston, non opposing, 38mm caliper - clearly defined by the rules. So are the C5's. My (and all 4th genr's) point. Wrong - do your homework. The LS1 front caliper is very similar to the C5 caliper in appearance and function, but there are a few differnces. The C5 caliper has full width stiffening ribs whereas the LS1 caliper does not. The C5 caliper has slightly smaller pistons (40mm vs 44mm). Pistons in an F-Body are larger, but made of thinner material vs the C5. They have about 10% more pad area than the F-Body calipers. That will give you a large sweep area which translates to better braking. The swept area of an LS1 caliper is 65.7 SQ CM. The swept area of a C5/Z06 caliper is 72.0 SQ CM. Z06 calipers are very similar to the standard LS1 calipers, except the Z06's are manufactured by PBR in Australia. The corvette brakes are pressure cast (not forged, but better than cast) and seem to eliminate "spreading" (under extreme use, the cast f-body calipers have in some cases started to open up or bend outward). The F-body calipers are regular cast aluminum. The Z06's have red powder coating (standard is dark grey). The only dimensionally difference between a '98 and newer F-Body caliper and a C5 caliper is the gap between the ears and the caliper body ... the gap where the rotor spins. The C5 rotor is significantly thicker than the F-Body and needs more room. Stats pulled from this site. And for the record, the C5 and C5 Z06 Calipers are the same. Edited December 10, 2005 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 there are so many errors in that quote its not funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Tanner Posted December 10, 2005 Author Share Posted December 10, 2005 (edited) there are so many errors in that quote its not funny. How about you refute them then? With some data. You seem pretty sure of yourself for someone that admitted he didn't know anything about these calipers just a few hours ago. Just saying there are errors doesn't build much of a case. Are you going to argue that the C5 caliper is a twin 38mm design, as Brad has claimed? I can assure you that they are 40mm. There doesn't seem to be any dispute about the stiffening ribs, so that can't be it. How about them being made by PBR? That seems to be the case to me. How about the larger surface area of the pads? Are you saying the C5 and the LS1 have the same pads? I honestly don't know the answer to that, but find it hard to believe this guy would have made it up. Is it the casting method? I recall more than one person pointing out that the casting method on the C5 caliper is superior to the LS1 caliper in this very thread. What exactly are the errors here, Glenn? Edited December 10, 2005 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsim Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Look, BAER components were NEVER on a factory car. Right? How are they legal? They're replacements. If you've ever held both a Baer and a stocker, they're NOT of the same quality. And, in doing my 'homework', I see that Baer is moving to using the C5 calipers on their latest kits. So, Baer upgrade, here I come... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Tanner Posted December 10, 2005 Author Share Posted December 10, 2005 Look, BAER components were NEVER on a factory car. Right? How are they legal? They're replacements. If you've ever held both a Baer and a stocker, they're NOT of the same quality. But they have the same dimensions and component sizes as stock. What's your point here? Are you just trying to be obtuse? My autozone brand distributor was never on a stock car either, but it is an equivalent replacement, so it meets the rules. And, in doing my 'homework', I see that Baer is moving to using the C5 calipers on their latest kits. So, Baer upgrade, here I come... Go ahead and buy them. See what I care. The bottom line is the C5 caliper is not legal given the current rules. How on earth can you argue that they are? Seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Tanner Posted December 10, 2005 Author Share Posted December 10, 2005 That's a C4 and C5 caliper on the same rotor. I will bet anyone that cares to nut up and put their money where their mouth is that the factory C5 Corvette Front calipers do not have 38mm bores. $1000. Come on with the tech or stop with the misinformation, conjecture, and just plain making stuff up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 The LS1 front caliper is very similar to the C5 caliper in appearance and function, but there are a few differnces. The C5 caliper has full width stiffening ribs whereas the LS1 caliper does not. True. The C5 caliper has slightly smaller pistons (40mm vs 44mm). Pistons in an F-Body are larger, but made of thinner material vs the C5. the size is correct. but i think the C5 use's aluminum pistons and the F-body use's steel. They have about 10% more pad area than the F-Body calipers. That will give you a large sweep area which translates to better braking. The swept area of an LS1 caliper is 65.7 SQ CM. The swept area of a C5/Z06 caliper is 72.0 SQ CM. i have found this to be not true. chalk it up to marketing hype. i have set a new set of C5 pads on top of a new set of 98 and up F-body pads (hawks) and they were the same size. there is a very small difference in the curved part of the pad that faces the center of the rotor. this radius is different and is not as curved as the F-body pad. this prevents its use in the F-body caliper frame (where the pads mount). if its bigger, its not more than 1sq cm. this difference is most likely due to the difference of the rotor diameter of the two. this is why C5 pads and F-body pads dont carry the same P/N w/ any of the pad manufactures. Z06 calipers are very similar to the standard LS1 calipers, except the Z06's are manufactured by PBR in Australia. i'm almost 100% sure but i cant seem to find the data @ this time, but i think the 98-02 F-body calipers are made by PBR for GM. they are not marked PBR, but i'm fairly sure they are made by them. ( look here - backs up my claim. i'll keep looking for a more reliable source of data. http://www.cbrperformance.com/brake_upgrade.htm) the biggest problem w/ this statement is it seems to imply that only the Z06 calipers are made by PBR and not the C5's, but in fact both are made by PBR. you did however point this out @ the bottom of your post. The corvette brakes are pressure cast (not forged, but better than cast) and seem to eliminate "spreading" (under extreme use, the cast f-body calipers have in some cases started to open up or bend outward). The F-body calipers are regular cast aluminum. The Z06's have red powder coating (standard is dark grey). The only dimensionally difference between a '98 and newer F-Body caliper and a C5 caliper is the gap between the ears and the caliper body ... the gap where the rotor spins. The C5 rotor is significantly thicker than the F-Body and needs more room. once agian, wrong. both cars have the same thickness in rotors - 1.25". i have a DBA C5 rotor here that was used on the LGM C5 upgrade for the 93-02 F-body that i tested for them. funny that the DBA measured out to 1.256" and the F-body measured out to 1.273". both are used, the DBA has 2 track days on them, the F-body one has much more w/ the very same pad swapped from one caliper to the other durring the swap. not sure how much "significantly" is. Stats pulled from this site. i dont really trust this guy, but then you seem to take his word over mine, and thats fine. And for the record, the C5 and C5 Z06 Calipers are the same.[/b] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Lewis ... first of all, I apologize for opening this thread up tot eh tangent it has taken. I honestly don't think that just because they are demensionally the same and will bolt up is a valid reason to allow teh use of the C5 caliper. However, reliability and cost is. Because the 98+ F-Car caliper and the C5 caliper are demensionally the same, pads from a 98+ F-Car and a C5 will interchange and have almost identical swept areas. There is a difference in that because the C5 utilizes a near 13" rotor, the inner arc of the pad is different. So, in the real world, there is no performance advantage to using a C5 caliper on a 98+ F-Car rotor. In conversations about this issue prior to the 2K6 rules, it was suggested that those of us who have suffered from caliper spread just don't know how to brake properly since some haven't experienced it. Maybe so ... But ask yourself if you want to be on track with every available avenue for a safe environment utilized, within the intent of the rules of course, as opposed to a group who don't know how to use the brakes properly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 That's a C4 and C5 caliper on the same rotor. I will bet anyone that cares to nut up and put their money where their mouth is that the factory C5 Corvette Front calipers do not have 38mm bores. $1000. Come on with the tech or stop with the misinformation, conjecture, and just plain making stuff up. 2 things - if you put a F-body caliper on that rotor w/ the other 2, you could not tell the difference from the F-body one and the C5. they are that close. the only visible difference is the ribs on top are longer and the lettering "CORVETTE", which the above caliper seems to be missing. also, you are right, the C5/Z06 uses 40mm pistons (i never said different), same as the C4, and ford calipers you are proposing to allow (and i agree w/ its legality). but you seem to want me to have to replace my F-body caliper every year. i would gladly give up 4mm piston diameter to be able to swap tot he C5 caliper. the whole point of my original post is - i was told no on the C5 caliper only cause it said "CORVETTE", if thats the case, then it should apply across the board. i asked Tony weeks ago to pleae go back and look @ the specs and make a sound decision based on specs not whats printed on the caliper. the rules allow me and you to run a non-opposed 44mm twin pistion caliper. if i choose to run a caliper thats under the limit of that, it should be legal. it seems the rules dont allow that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Tanner Posted December 10, 2005 Author Share Posted December 10, 2005 i'm gonna guess that the only difference between your C4 caliper and the C5 caliper is the mounting ears. i have no tech on hand to back this up, but i'm thinking thats the case. so the real diffence is you can bolt up the C4 and i can bolt up the C5, but not the other way around. Glenn, I took his word over yours because you tried to claim that the C4 and C5 calipers were the same aside from the mounting tabs then said you really don't know anything about them and you were just guessing. I really don't care if you want to argue that you should be able to run the calipers, just place your argument in it's own context and don't use conjecture and speculation to glom your issues onto a simple technical question as the two issues just aren't related. Go build your case on reliablity and cost and bring it to the table outside of this discussion - pitching a fit and saying "If they can do that, then we have to be able to do this!" is childish and counterproductive to both of our positions, and when you do that and try to further support it with inaccurate data, you can bet I'm going to the mat on it. More power to you if you can get them approved, but this isn't the thread in which you should be doing it and the original method you tried to use to get it done was unacceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsim Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 For Mitch: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted December 10, 2005 Members Share Posted December 10, 2005 Guys...holy crap man, relax! I guess this is what happens when we're all preparing for family weekends instead of racing weekends Lewis...to answer your question: maybe. Probably if you ask me, but I have to chat about it with the rest of the directors to make sure no one has an issue. Its been a whole day, give us a little time. Matt...I'm not familiar with the PBR A-sedan kit. The only thing I could find on their web site was some template reference which said their a-sedan rears are the same as their a-sedan fronts? Anyway, get the details on the caliper and we can talk. Glenn...email me proof that you were told the "only" reason you cant run a C5 caliper is "because it says Corvette on it". Doesnt seem likely (well, Adam might have said that ) but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Regarding C5 calipers in 4th gens: we discussed this during the many rules revisions sessions and decided against it because while there is evidence that the 4th gens need help in the brake area, there is also evidence ALL cmc cars need help in this area because you guys are so damned fast. More importantly and less obvious to everyone who thinks this is a silver bullet, there is virtually no evidence that the C5 caliper will eliminate the problem while at the same time not relocating the problem somewhere else. This doesnt mean its never going to happen, it just means we're not going to do trial and error in the rules. No more discussion on C5 calipers...they are not allowed period. They, and other alternatives for reducing CMC brake component cost will be evaluated during the '06 season. Until further notice, that part of the discussion is over. ok...back to the program, but be nice to each other, its Christmas (almost) and all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Tanner Posted December 10, 2005 Author Share Posted December 10, 2005 ok...back to the program, but be nice to each other, its Christmas (almost) and all... I love you, Glenn. You too, Brad. No real hurry, Al. I don't even think this issue affects me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsim Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 I don't even think this issue affects me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 ok...back to the program, but be nice to each other, its Christmas (almost) and all... No real hurry, Al. I don't even think this issue affects me. Sure it does ... what else would a lonely bachelor have to do on a Friday night! Brad ... back off, dude. As it stands right now, even with a spread 98+ F-car caliper, I can still brake hard enough to lock up the tires. So replacing it with a C5 unit wouldn't enhance performance at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Glenn...email me proof that you were told the "only" reason you cant run a C5 caliper is "because it says Corvette on it". Doesnt seem likely (well, Adam might have said that ) but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. your proof of this is likely found w/ to whom you make your next phone call to regarding this brake matter. ask him. i believe it was said to me, but it was also said to another CMC'er and reapeted to me prior to my conversation w/ him. however, that was not the primary focus of that call, so the details about that topic are not 100%. as for us being so damed fast, well if i recall correctly, a Ford holds the track record @ all but one of the four tracks we ran @ this past year. the one GM that holds a track record is a 3rd gen. so, i see no evidence peformance in the braking area is lopsided towards GM's. sometime in 06 you guys are gonna see more of this "spead caliper" issue there on the west coast. this is not my first time dealing w/ it. and i'm sure its not caused by my lack of ability to brake properly. if that were the case, Lou Gigliotti needs to learn to brake also, as they had the same problems in World Challenge back when they ran the F-body. take some time and talk w/ your local and newly relocated Texan Mike Patterson (AI) and ask him about running T2 w/ oem brakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harleydave Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Glenn wrote: as for us being so damed fast, well if i recall correctly, a Ford holds the track record @ all but one of the four tracks we ran @ this past year. the one GM that holds a track record is a 3rd gen. so, i see no evidence peformance in the braking area is lopsided towards GM's. Just to clarify, you misunderstood Al. He said all CMC cars need help in this are because you guys are all so damn fast. You guys is everybody - Ford and GM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Glenn wrote: as for us being so damed fast, well if i recall correctly, a Ford holds the track record @ all but one of the four tracks we ran @ this past year. the one GM that holds a track record is a 3rd gen. so, i see no evidence peformance in the braking area is lopsided towards GM's. Just to clarify, you misunderstood Al. He said all CMC cars need help in this are because you guys are all so damn fast. You guys is everybody - Ford and GM thanks, i guess i misunderstood the comment. sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ginsberg Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 as for us being so damed fast, well if i recall correctly, a Ford holds the track record @ all but one of the four tracks we ran @ this past year. the one GM that holds a track record is a 3rd gen. so, i see no evidence peformance in the braking area is lopsided towards GM's. Glenn, you neglected to mention that every single GM driver in Texas is a rookie. That could have allot to do with why so many current track records are held by a Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 as for us being so damed fast, well if i recall correctly, a Ford holds the track record @ all but one of the four tracks we ran @ this past year. the one GM that holds a track record is a 3rd gen. so, i see no evidence peformance in the braking area is lopsided towards GM's. Glenn, you neglected to mention that every single GM driver in Texas is a rookie. That could have allot to do with why so many current track records are held by a Ford. lets see, 3 of the 4 GM cars each have more track time than all but like 1 CMC racer. only rookie by title, not ability. not a good example. i've been driving F-body's on road course's since 99, mitch just as long w/ @ least twice the track time i have. Nick started in like 2000 w/ a new SS. but yes, i'll admitt it, we have never ran the OTC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renntag1548534718 Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 OK, So its obvious Mitch is bored with the latest posts to this thread....but in order to avoid ridicule and severe forum beating....what is with ALL the CAT pictures seen so often here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 LOL ... First of all, cats have HUGE personalities ... and their "expressions" convey a big message, sometimes. Second of all, as you well know, I caused a tremendous amount of strife and was responsible for several riffs that have run through this group. Again, I apologize for that ... Third, once it began to sink in what I was doing, what it's affects were and finally accepting "it is what it is" as an answer, I decided to stop being such a turd. All that to say .... In one of the "heated" exchanges of ideas, discussions about the CMC world and the lengths some were willing to go to to explain just how stupid their competitor is, I interjected a simple phrase as a response. The response was ... "I have a cat". Doing a search using Google images reveals 1000s of net pics folks have taken of there cat. It seemed like the thing to do at the time ... I wish I could take credit for using that phrase at a most innoppurtune time. But I cannot. It's a phrase coined from the crazed and wacky mind of a very good friend of mine ... a graduate of Chico, BTW. The crazed friend is a Civil Engineer, LPE and the go to guy when it comes to root cause analysis at the nuke plant where I work. So can you just imagine when the regulators ask a question and he answers "I have a cat" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renntag1548534718 Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 LOL ... ... I decided to stop being such a turd. All that to say .... ... "I have a cat".... It's a phrase coined from the crazed and wacky mind of a very good friend of mine ... ... he answers "I have a cat" Thanks...GOt it. Makes sense now..... but....I have a Dog. My Dogma Pee'd on your Carma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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