MHISSTC Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 I thought I'd strike while the iron is hot and everyone has brake upgrades on their minds. First off, I'll make some comments about potentially changing the rules as mentioned in another thread. I'd love to run 17" wheels and tires with an SN95 five lug hub and a Cobra brake upgrade. But...$$$ is prohibitive. I like the idea of keeping those kind of upgrades in AI and letting CMC continue running with the "budget" setup. If I had to make the upgrade, it would probably add a year to the time it's already going to take me to field a CMC car. If I was going to do that, then I'd consider going into AI. This leads me to my next set of thoughts about the Fox Mustang brake setups. My current thinking is to stay with a 4-lug setup (mainly because I'm a cheap bastard). Without upgrading to a 5-lug setup, and as I read the rules, I cannot use SVO, Cobra, Thunderbird or Lincoln Continental or Mark VII brake components. I will be limited to updating my '85 GT with '87-'93 V8 spindles and rotors. The main upgrade seems to come in the form of brake pad choice along with building some kind of ducting system to direct some air to the brakes. Is my thinking here correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 If you choose to upgrade to the larger Fox spindles, which in my opinion is a waste of time and money, you should at least upgrade to a 5-lug setup with Ranger front discs and rear axles and drums. Then you won't have to change wheels if you step up to the SN95 brakes later, plus the larger caliper upgrades you mentioned are available with that spindle and work with the 5-lug discs. If you already had the larger V-8 Fox spindles, I might understand your logic, but I cannot see spending the time and money to upgrade to an interim step. It would make more sense to stick with your current setup until you have the money to do it right once. BTW, there's a lot more to an AI car than 17s and bigger brakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted February 18, 2006 Author Share Posted February 18, 2006 If I go all out with an SN95 setup initially, it will take me that much longer for my budget to make the accomodations just to initially put the rubber to the road. I see where you're coming from on the Ranger/Aerostar 5-lug conversion, but I question that. Are you saying if I eventually want a 5-lug setup, I should invest in some of the goods that will go along with it in the future like the new rear axles, wheels and tires? With the parts I already have or can acquire cheaply, I've figured out it is cheaper for me to go with just the 4-lug '87-'93 front rotor/spindle upgrade than it is for me to go 5-lug all around. plus the larger caliper upgrades you mentioned are available with that spindle and work with the 5-lug discs. The larger caliper upgrades I specifically mentioned are, according to how I read the rules, not legal. The rules state "Front calipers may be updated/backdated from any car of the same manufacturer listed in Section 4. Eligible Manufacturers/Models, and shall utilize either 2 non opposed pistons no larger than 38mm in diameter or a single piston no larger than 76mm in diameter..." The Linconln, SVO, etc. front calipers wouldn't qualify since they are neither from the Eligible Manufacurers/Models list or found in an exception. The Ranger/Aerostar drums aren't either for that matter. The rules also say if a specific modification or substitution is not specifically allowed, it isn't allowed. Am I misreading something? I know there is more to AI and AIX than just bigger brakes and wheels. I was trying to make the point that if I had the money to do it and that's the direction I was going, why not go for the gusto and build the car for one of those series instead of trying to stay within my very restricted budget in CMC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony G Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 Exact reasoning (and there are many more),why the 16" set up is here to stay. Thank you, Tony Guaglione Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 It's your car, but take a look around and see how many other Mustangs are running stock Fox brakes. Not many. If you are on a budget, I can't see spending any time or money on a marginal system when you would be better off keeping what you have and waiting to upgrade once and for all later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted February 18, 2006 Author Share Posted February 18, 2006 Matt, Am I assumning correctly that you are currently running an SN95 5-lug hub/brake setup? If so, what exactly are the components that you are using? Can you offer any personal experience and comparison information between that system and the 11" front rotor 4-lug setup? Have you come across any drawbacks or shortcomings in the SN95 system? Everyone, For the folks out there running 4-lugs...what are your brake setups and answers to the same questions above? I don't know how many folks are running the 4-lug setup as compared to the 5-lug. That's why I'm asking as many questions as I can about them here and in another thread. I'm trying to get as much information as I can to make educated spending decisions. I figured that the marginal 11" front rotors in the interim would be better than the super-marginal 10" front rotors that are stock and currently on the car. I had the opportunity to drive a very well maintained '85 Mustang GT at PPIR last year. Other than having an '88 GT FI engine, it was bone stock and in full street driven trim. The very first thing I noticed was the brakes...or distinct lack thereof. It was a very different animal than my '96 Cobra. After just one use coming off the back straight onto the infield corners, the brakes were almost completely faded out. This was also after using them just one time at only about 75% of the force that I would normally and repeatedly use in my Cobra in the same spot and all over the track with no fade or lack of confidence. The Cobra brakes in the lighter FOX should have spectacular performance. That's why I'd LOVE to do that kind of conversion. But, I'm also all for the constraints put on CMC to keep it a low budget entry race series. Otherwise, I'd never be attempting it myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 My opinion - spend on genuine safety and rules compliance to get on the track. Then, as you get some experience and find what you need to upgrade, do it. 4-lugs might be OK for a period of time. Do what you have to do to have a safe, reliable car and get some experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 Agreed. I will bargain shop, but safety gear I will not cheap-out on. Safety gear has been my first budget priority. That said, brakes can become a safety issue if they aren't functining or adequate. I don't feel like any pads on the pre-'87 10" rotors are going to be adequate, but I don't think the SN95 upgrade is needed to be safe. Besides, '87-'93 performance pads are easier to find. Going fast and looking pretty will come later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboTuna Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 MHISSTC, PM TPetrosky on this board. He runs a Fox body convertible in the OH/IN region. He has stock '87-'93 front disc/rear drum brakes on his car and does real well. He can tell you all you want to know about how the stock brakes work in CMC. You might be suprised. I was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 MHISSTC, I got done a short time ago building my 89 coupe and went with the SN95 setup. I went with the PBR calipers (just like your Cobra) and was able to pick them up at the local O'Reily for around $60 each new. I run the 12" Baer rotors that are very beefy and have done great for me. I have run a total of 4-weekends with the car and brake setup and it has done great. I would keep a close eye out on all the websites for second - hand parts. I picked up the my rotors and caliper brackets on-line for a great price. I think there is only 1 racer in our TX region that is running the 4-lug setup and it is doing just fine for him. If you are starting from the beginning I would save up for the 5-lug setup as it will benefit you in the future. Have fun with the build!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPetrosky Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 TX#11CMC I'm a long time 4-lug holdout but all of this 4-lug to 5-lug talk is making me take another look at converting. I haven't found a lot of 16' x 8" 5-lug reasonably priced wheels available if I did convert. Any advice or examples of what people in your region are using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ginsberg Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Read section 8.35.9 more carefully.....it was rewritten about 2 years ago. The SVO, Linc and T-bird setups are indeed legal for CMC use. From experience - the stock-style 4 lug setup in front is an integrated hub and rotor. You send heat right from the pads into the rotor....and therefore, into the hubs/bearings. They are more prone to warping, and the bearings should be repacked/checked after every event. 5 lug rims are easier to find than 4 lug. 87-93 pads are easy to find, but Cobra/PBR pads, in true race compounds, are just as easy,if not more so. As others have mentioned, the 5 lug setup really is the way to go, but for someone on a budget, staying 4 lug is understandable. Run the 4 lug setup for a season, get some seat time ( one of the most important aspects of racing, IMO ), acquire the 5 lug stuff, then convert when time/$$ permits. KeithO said it very, very well. As for rims....check out these links: http://customwheelsmarket.com/ford-oem-style-and-replica-wheels.html ( thanks to Bud Sharp! ) http://tinyurl.com/cjnhg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Tom, I found a set of Y2K Cobra replica's that I am currently running. They are pretty heavy (23 lbs.) but get the job done and fit nicely in my budget. I got them from a wheel company in CA new and shipped for a little under $100 each. A few others are running the ROH wheel. I did my fair share of complaining re. wheels but found that there were quite a few options out there when really looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPetrosky Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Thanks Adam and Michael for the wheel info. How about help in one last area before I make a decision to upgrade or not. Rule 8.35.3 states master cylinder and brake booster must be OEM stock and un-modified. Does that mean any OEM part from the same manufacturer or does it have to be model specific meaning I can't use Mark VII or Cobra master cylinder / booster? Hopefully, my last question on this topic. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ginsberg Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Tom - you can definitely use a Mark VII or Cobra booster. AAMOF, most folks who move to the SN95 setup wind up using a Cobra booster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y5e06 Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 After watching Corey install a C*bra booster in his 4-eyes just be aware it will require a 'little' massaging of the inner fender to clear the bigger booster. hmmm, a BFH will be quite useful. Tom - you can definitely use a Mark VII or Cobra booster. AAMOF, most folks who move to the SN95 setup wind up using a Cobra booster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 it will require a 'little' massaging of the inner fender to clear the bigger booster. hmmm, a BFH will be quite useful. A 3-pound sledge works nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 4. ELIGIBLE MANUFACTURERS/MODELS Manufacturers: Ford Motor Company Eligible Ford makes and models: 1979-95 Ford Mustang 5.0 V8 (Cobra models excluded) 1979-86 Mercury Capri 5.0 V8 1996-04 Ford Mustang 4.6 V8 (Cobra models excluded) 8.3. Update/Backdate Non-body Components Non-body components may be updated/backdated within cars of the same manufacturer on the eligible manufacturers/models list (i.e. 1982-92 GM Early Components may NOT be interchanged with 1993-97 GM Late Components). Unless noted elsewhere in these rules. 8.35.3. The brake master cylinder and brake booster must be OEM stock and unmodified. given these 3 rules, how is it that a COBRA brake booster is legal??? since rule 4 excludes all Cobra modles, and rule 8.3 limits us to an eligible manufactures list (excludes Cobra), and rule 8.35.3 says it must be OEM stock (are non Cobra models equiped stock w/ Cobra boosters?), i dont see how a Cobra booster is legal. please explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 The front and rear calipers from the Cobra models are legal--that's well-established. Given that, the Cobra master cylinder at a minimum should be recognized as legal because it is a critical matched component of that system. There are a few common sizes used on Mustangs, 15/16-inch, 1-inch and 1 1/8-inch, and I can't even remember which is which or which one I have on my own car! As far as the booster goes, there are many part numbers available that were used on Mustangs that are legal on the eligible models list; most are externally identical appearing or very similar and fit in the stock location. Given that, and the update/backdate rule, it becomes very difficult to police this without a list of specific part numbers. Just saying "stock" is meaningless because there are so many interchanges that fall within that term. By the time you factor in changes that may have been made by previous owners and parts stores with the "one size fits all" interchange book, it's probably going to be simpler to limit the options to unmodified OEM factory parts, regardless of original application. Either that or somebdoy at the National level needs to start researching part numbers, specs, and original applications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Good question Glenn. I am confused, as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted February 21, 2006 Members Share Posted February 21, 2006 Ok, this really is one that should be worded better. 8.35.3 requires a stock, OEM master and booster as in it bolts in and works with the other required brake pieces. It is intended to keep you from installing a Tilton dual master assembly. It is not intended to limit you to the unit that happened to be bolted to your particular year firewall. We'll clean that up. The Mustang crowd definitely has a broader range of master cylinders and boosters, which is due to Ford's insistence on monkeying around with so many different calipers and rotors. At the end of the day, the master and booster should be sized based on the combination of calipers/rotors and the selection of OEM Mustang gear (regardless of specific model) makes sense. Similarly LT1 and LS1 Fbodies have different master cylinders and using the LS1 unit with the LS1 calipers makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 ........ Similarly LT1 and LS1 Fbodies have different master cylinders and using the LS1 unit with the LS1 calipers makes sense. well its nice to know this now. this is a prime example of the ones who wrote the rules knowing the intent, but not able to put it into words. the rule as written seemed very clear and thus i never asked. in the future please dont get protective of the rules when we ask alot of "why not's" and "how come's" as we are only trying to discover the unwritten "intent" of the rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 OK Al, I'm slower than most. Can you dumb it down another few notches for me as I still don't get it. The rules clearly exclude the Cobra in a few sections so is it legal to run a Cobra brake booster in a Fox Mustang or not? And if it is legal, then what other combos are legal and does this apply to any other sections of the rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 meow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ginsberg Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Yes, the Cobra booster and MC are legal in ALL Fords. Basically, all MC's and boosters from 1979 to 2004 are legal, although I doubt you'll want to use the Hydroboost unit from the mod cars. You can even use a manual brake setup, as very early Fox3 cars had manual brakes. As for the same type of scenario being legal in other sections of the rules - it's possible. If there is a particular section you have a question about, please contact a series director. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.