Jump to content

Tire Question


Red Tornado

Recommended Posts

Isee the new rules say R compound.

Are the following considered R compund:

Pilot Sport Cup

Toyo RA1's

Nitto NT-01's

 

If so may I make a suggestion that may please one of your sponsors.

Allow RA1's to be run without any point penalty.

That would certainly get alot of people running those tires. Plus they are alot slower than other R compound like Kumho V710's. Otherwise everyone will go straight from street tires to DOT hoosiers or kumho's which are basically slicks anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • National Staff

Yes, yes, and yes. Also, the rules have been the same since the beginning of February, although the TT Calculator on the NASA website was recently corrected. We discussed this topic earlier in the year here: http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4936&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=compound+tires&start=15

 

I'm not sure why people underestimate Toyo's, or for that matter, overestimate Hoosiers and Kumho's. I'm sure that you are correct that if we let drivers run Toyos without any points, that there would be a lot of takers. There already are a lot of drivers running on Toyos! Certainly you don't think that Toyos are equivalent to Falkens or BFG G-Force's? True, new Hoosier DOT's or Kumho V710's are generally faster than new (especially full tread) Toyos. However, the first two tires are no better than Toyos after a handful of heat cycles. And, the Toyos continue to perform as the others deteriorate. Also, Hoosier DOT's, Kumho V710's, Hankook Z212's are not slicks, even though they look like slicks with two grooves cut in them. The compounds are different, and true slicks are definitely faster and even less durable than those above.

 

Now, perhaps we should give only 3 points for Toyos? Well, then what about the Nitto's you mentioned, or Hankook Z211's? Treadwear ratings are nebulous because the manufacturer decides what they are--80, 100--flip a coin. And, as soon as we start naming specific brands in the rules, and then brand X sneaks out a new tire and we don't recognize the need for a rapid rule revision, someone gains a temporary advantage (? even at Nationals?). It's much easier to just say DOT R-compounds vs. Slicks vs. street tires. However, we will look at this subject again with the 2006 revisions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my mind there are three classes of tires:

True Street tires

Track that can be used on steet -toyo's,etc.. *1-2 seconds quicker than street tires

DOT with a slice or slicks (hoosiers, V710's) * 3-5 seconds quicker than street tires.

 

The key here is also wear and cost. Bucket two is ideal for those of us who drive to the track on same tires but want more grip at lower costs than stock tires.

 

Anyone really running hard won't run the first bucket so in my mind option 2 or 3 are really what the diehard folks run.

 

The fact that it also will get a lot more folks running toyo's who seem to be a good supporter is also a nice benefit for us to do to them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, Hoosier DOT's, Kumho V710's, Hankook Z212's are not slicks, even though they look like slicks with two grooves cut in them. The compounds are different, and true slicks are definitely faster and even less durable than those above.

 

Minor correction: The Hankook Z212 is not a DOT race compound; it is Hankook's equivalent to the Falken Azenis 615 and Kumho MX while their Z214 is a direct competitor with Kumho's 710.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now, perhaps we should give only 3 points for Toyos? Well, then what about the Nitto's you mentioned, or Hankook Z211's? Treadwear ratings are nebulous because the manufacturer decides what they are--80, 100--flip a coin. And, as soon as we start naming specific brands in the rules, and then brand X sneaks out a new tire and we don't recognize the need for a rapid rule revision, someone gains a temporary advantage (? even at Nationals?). It's much easier to just say DOT R-compounds vs. Slicks vs. street tires. However, we will look at this subject again with the 2006 revisions.

 

Greg,

 

We could have 4 class of tires.

 

Full Racing Slicks- 8 Points

DOT R Compound Slicks (less the 3 groves)- 5 points

DOT R Compound traded tires (like RA-1, Victorracers, Nitto and Dunlop) -3 points

and Street tires - 0 points

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • National Staff

Ted is in SoCal, and we do not follow that scheme. Another point that is being missed is that there are cars that we have given double asterixs (10 point base class assessment), so that they can run almost stock, on street tires and stay in the lower class. Currently, if they choose to run any type of R-compound tire, the 5 points would bump them up to the next class. If we changed it to 3 points for Toyos, etc., it would allow those cars to run in the lower class, where they would likely clean up. Also, if you look at the points themselves, and estimate the benefit that a mod will provide in terms of lap time, clearly going from street tires to Toyos (for only 3 points) will provide a lot better lap time improvement than just about any other 3 points (big brake kit, flat bottom, heim joints, adjustable spring perches, added limited slip). Or worse yet, many combinations of points, like strut tower bars (1+1) and air intake (1), bumper removal (2) and relocated battery (1), etc. We wanted to have an equitable way to allow some cars on the verge of moving up in class to be able to run "stock" in the lower class. We would now have to add 4 more points to those cars base classes by moving them up to the higher class, even though they won't be competitive unless they put on R-compound tires. I suppose a consideration would be to increase the points value of the tires so that we can continue to have our double asterix cars and to assess +1 for the smaller mods that do add up together to improve lap times. Would we all agree that with the exception of an engine swap or adding a turbo or supercharger, that tire choice is the single biggest performance enhancing mod (compared to street tires)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ted is in SoCal, and we do not follow that scheme. Another point that is being missed is that there are cars that we have given double asterixs (10 point base class assessment), so that they can run almost stock, on street tires and stay in the lower class. Currently, if they choose to run any type of R-compound tire, the 5 points would bump them up to the next class. If we changed it to 3 points for Toyos, etc., it would allow those cars to run in the lower class, where they would likely clean up. Also, if you look at the points themselves, and estimate the benefit that a mod will provide in terms of lap time, clearly going from street tires to Toyos (for only 3 points) will provide a lot better lap time improvement than just about any other 3 points (big brake kit, flat bottom, heim joints, adjustable spring perches, added limited slip). Or worse yet, many combinations of points, like strut tower bars (1+1) and air intake (1), bumper removal (2) and relocated battery (1), etc. We wanted to have an equitable way to allow some cars on the verge of moving up in class to be able to run "stock" in the lower class. We would now have to add 4 more points to those cars base classes by moving them up to the higher class, even though they won't be competitive unless they put on R-compound tires. I suppose a consideration would be to increase the points value of the tires so that we can continue to have our double asterix cars and to assess +1 for the smaller mods that do add up together to improve lap times. Would we all agree that with the exception of an engine swap or adding a turbo or supercharger, that tire choice is the single biggest performance enhancing mod (compared to street tires)?

 

That's true. Maybe leave the Toyos at 5 points and move the DOT Slicks to 6. I think everyone would agree that the Hoosiers and Kumho DOT slicks are going to quicker then the treaded Toyo/Hankooks and etc no matter if they are R-Compounds or not. It's just an idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greg is absolutely correct. There is NO way that a Toyo or other full-tread R Compound tire (if assigned only three points) would be equal to my two strut tower bars and pulleys, for instance. My pulleys are mostly to prevent overheating anyhow. R Compounds are worth far more than 3 points of mods.

 

I do think that maybe there should be a third class of tire for DOT-approved tires that are not full tread. Definitely DO NOT start to give certain brands of tires different point assessments. That makes no sense whatsover for a variety of logical reasons. If thought through even on a cursory basis, formal logic insists this cannot be done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • National Staff
Definitely DO NOT start to give certain brands of tires different point assessments.

 

Unless, or course, certain brands decide to make very significant contingency sponsorship arrangements for NASA TT on both a regional and National basis

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Definitely DO NOT start to give certain brands of tires different point assessments.

 

Unless, or course, certain brands decide to make very significant contingency sponsorship arrangements for NASA TT on both a regional and National basis

 

GREAT IDEA!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my mind there are three classes of tires:

True Street tires

Track that can be used on steet -toyo's,etc.. *1-2 seconds quicker than street tires

DOT with a slice or slicks (hoosiers, V710's) * 3-5 seconds quicker than street tires.

 

Not even close.

 

Any(Toyo, Kuhmo, Mich, Hoosier) DOT R compound race tire will be many seconds quicker than any street tire. While the better R compound tires may be .5-1 second quicker than the others. I base this on my experiences of pushing C6 Vets and 996 Porsches thru corners with my E30 BMW with a stock motor, race suspension and R Toyos.

 

The all depends on the cars suspension, no tire will stick better if it ain't touching the track!

 

If you're buying new tires every event, then buy Hoosiers. But if you are like most folks and triy to get a few weekends out of a set, buy Toyos.

 

I'll take Toyos with 15 heat cycles over Hoosiers with 8 heat cycles any day!

 

An advantage I have ever seen with Hoosiers was gone after 5-6 heat cycles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we're going to have different points for treaded DOT R-compound to DOT Slick R-Compounds... We should think about adding a point for shaved treaded DOT R Compound tires as well.

 

We could have it like this

 

5 points for treaded DOT R-compounds

7 points for less the 3 treads DOT Compounds

8 points for race tires.

The Plus 1 point for shaved tires.

 

I mean it doesn't have to be those numbers, but something like that. Just an Idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But unshaven tires a few races later will be shaven by proxy anyhow.

 

If we're going to have different points for treaded DOT R-compound to DOT Slick R-Compounds... We should think about adding a point for shaved treaded DOT R Compound tires as well.

 

We could have it like this

 

5 points for treaded DOT R-compounds

7 points for less the 3 treads DOT Compounds

8 points for race tires.

The Plus 1 point for shaved tires.

 

I mean it doesn't have to be those numbers, but something like that. Just an Idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Shawn is the master... he's using his diversionary tactics to help further our cause

 

We're gonna have to lobby hard to keep our Hoosiers

 

 

My Hoosiers are used up. I just got the more affordable Kuhmo V700 mounted up. Now im all kuhmo's for 2006! Now, if I had YOUR budget..... id be the Hoosier daddy! For now, you are the Hoosier Daddy!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shawn is the master... he's using his diversionary tactics to help further our cause

 

We're gonna have to lobby hard to keep our Hoosiers

 

 

My Hoosiers are used up. I just got the more affordable Kuhmo V700 mounted up. Now im all kuhmo's for 2006! Now, if I had YOUR budget..... id be the Hoosier daddy! For now, you are the Hoosier Daddy!

 

So, are you moving up to TTD Shawn???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
So, are you moving up to TTD Shawn???

 

 

Nope. The car is staying the same except it will have a full cage and safety items so I can run with the GTS guys. So, it will be heavier actually.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, are you moving up to TTD Shawn???

 

 

Nope. The car is staying the same except it will have a full cage and safety items so I can run with the GTS guys. So, it will be heavier actually.

 

Okay. Then I have a rule Proposal that all 1981 VW Scirroccos must carry a 250lbs weight ballast or start as a TTG**

 

Otherwise, I'm moving up to TTD

 

Just kidding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Okay. Then I have a rule Proposal that all 1981 VW Scirroccos must carry a 250lbs weight ballast or start as a TTG**

 

Otherwise, I'm moving up to TTD

 

Just kidding.

 

 

I completely agree!!!

My car is a 1980 and its also a SCIROCCO. Been meaning to ask you to fix the spelling on the site. LOL!!

 

My car will have 250lbs with all the cage and safety equipment thats going in! Come play with me in TTE!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...