Jump to content

Data Aquistion systems


ron12

Recommended Posts

First of all I probably spelled it wrong. Secondly, how come we are the only class that has a specified data system and how do we amend this rule to add other types of data systems.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The CMC rules point back to the NASA CCRs, where there's a whole list of legal data acquisition systems. The current wording of the CMC rule is kinda goofy though, since it says data acquisition systems are prohibited, except that there's a whole list of ones that are legal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

The CMC rules do not point back to the NASA CCR and they do not state that they are prohibited. What they do state is they are restricted, and then lists what systems you are restricted to.

 

For 2006 NASA changed their rules to being exactly what is in the CMC rules to making acquisition systems unrestricted while still not allowing live telemetry. When this happened there was a bunch of gnashing of teeth and general scrambling around. We didnt change our rule then. Up until now nobody has brought it up since.

 

This is one of those arguments without a correct answer, just different points of view.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CCR

18.7 Data Acquisition Systems

This section applies to all classes, unless otherwise specified by class rules. All data acquisition systems are prohibited except for NASA approved systems and drivertraining programs. No data acquisition system may be used in testing, practice, warmup, street driving, or racing (with NASA or any other sanctioning body). No brackets, sensors, or mounting hardware for data acquisition systems are permitted. Violation of this rule is considered to be a violation of the intent of the series. Anyone caught in violation of this rule will be subject to permanent ejection from this series. The following systems are approved for use:

G Analyst

Hot Lap Timer

Hot Lap Performance Monitor

Intercomp Lap Timer

My Chron Light

My Chron 2

My Chron 3

My Chron 3+

My Chron 3 Gold

TachMate 5-Input system

DL-90 Data Logger

GTech Pro SS

GTech Pro RR

 

CMC '06 Rules

7.1. Data Acquisition Systems

Data acquisition devices, except those allowed per the NASA CCR, are prohibited in CMC.

 

i vote this rule to be cleaned up for '07. i would also like to see this cleared up here and now as i've been shopping for a system. a little help?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The CMC rules do not point back to the NASA CCR and they do not state that they are prohibited. What they do state is they are restricted, and then lists what systems you are restricted to.

Care to explain your answer, Al? My rule book reads exactly what Glenn posted above. Are you reading from the super-secret Director's Cut version?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Well, I guess my versions of the rules must be out of date. My 2006 NASA CCR 2006.5 edition states:

 

18.7 Data Acquisition Systems

This section applies to all classes, unless otherwise specified by class rules. Data acquisition is unrestricted. Telemetry is not allowed. Telemetry is the transmission of data by means of a radio signal.

 

My 2006 CMC rules state:

7.1. Data Acquisition Systems

Data acquisition devices are restricted in CMC. See section 10 for a list of approved devices.

 

wait...no, its you guys that are using rule books that are out of date seriously, you are

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My copy of the 2006 CMC rules is dated January 2006. The version I just downloaded from the website is also dated January 2006, but that section is different. When was this revised version released and why isn't it indicated by a revision date?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I guess my versions of the rules must be out of date. My 2006 NASA CCR 2006.5 edition states:

 

18.7 Data Acquisition Systems

This section applies to all classes, unless otherwise specified by class rules. Data acquisition is unrestricted. Telemetry is not allowed. Telemetry is the transmission of data by means of a radio signal.

 

My 2006 CMC rules state:

7.1. Data Acquisition Systems

Data acquisition devices are restricted in CMC. See section 10 for a list of approved devices.

 

wait...no, its you guys that are using rule books that are out of date seriously, you are

 

Mine says the same as yours Al.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Al,

 

Why are we limited to specific types and what can we do to amend this rule. Obviously the driver is the main ingridient to success. I want to add a G2X to compare notes with another driver that I share the car with. We have found this unit to be the most accomodating since we use it in the FFr cobra as well. I see no advantage to using one system over another. Our simplistic class just got very complicated. Next thing you know someone is going to say the hp numbers are just a guideline and meant to be the max number.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I agree with Ron. The rule didn't make any sense when it was in the CCR's, and it still doesn't make any sense as a CMC class rule. The goal is to contain costs, so it should simply state a maximum retail cost, kinda like the shock rule does. Some of the units on the list aren't in production any more, and their replacements can be had for about the same prices. And, units like the G2X should be legal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to be a prick (well maybe, it's been one of those days), but the same argument could be made if someone wanted to run a 75 Nova in the series - "Well I *know* the rules say Camaros/Firebirds/Mustangs, but I share a Nova with this guy...".

 

Or, "I want 17" wheels...".

 

Or, "I want Wilwood calipers, I know a guy that gets 'em cheap...".

 

Or, "I can get Penske shocks for 1/2 price..."

 

Historically, NO data acquisition in CMC was allowed. Period. Last year, a limited number of units were made available to us. All (relatively) cheap. If you look at the units, they generally can be had for ~$800 or less. I don't know what G2X unit you're talking about, but when I search, I find a model for $1700. What makes this model better than (say) a Mychron 3 Gold? Is it worth double the price? If not, why'd you get it? If so, that's probably a reason it's not allowed. This series as a whole is built so that those with bigger checkbooks don't get better equipment.

 

So, the question would be (to me) - I could do without, or sell the model not on the legal list and buy one that is.

 

Obviously you can ask to have a model added to the rules. But when asked "why should it be added to the allowed list?", try and have a better answer than "I already have one".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the onlt thing is, if a non-approved system is the same price or less than the most expensive approved system and its all about cost. lets just set a retail cost limit ($1K) and let the racers do the research. instead of being stuck w/ 4 out of 8 systems not in production (just numbers pulled out of my ass).

i would really hate to by a system on the list just to see the rules updated to allow a better system i wanted but @ the time was not allowed. i want the best for my money.

just my input.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's not set another price limit that we will have to chase around as prices fluctuate. How about determining the features that are allowed and leave it at that. Most of the budget type systems all have the same features anyway, including the $4000 Pi systems that are essentially just overpriced. Is anybody really concerned that someone is going to buy a $250,000 system with onboard telemetry? I mean seriously, is that a concern here? Once you start researching these systems, I think most people will find that all of the standalone units aimed at our type of racing are all very similar in terms of features and price. As long as the logger does not interface with an ECU or have telemetry, the differences are all just bells and whistles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

bsim,

 

Your comments seem kind of far fetched. Asking to incorporate the G2X does not give you a driving advantage as I stated earlier. I do not even know the price and probably could not afford it anyway. But my co-driver wants to add one to compare notes so we may both inprove our driving skills. It does not have any special features that the approved ones have. When you start comparing the price for Wilwood brakes and Penske shocks you are obviously changing the aspect of the rules and the intent to keep cost down. Personally I like the way the rules are stated and the scope of the class, but I don't like the contradiction about the capabilities of data systems and then specifying particular brands.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This may sound a little harsh, and I don't mean for to be.......What most people need to do is to spend the same amount of money on more track time to get a better feel for the car and learn how to drive instead of using a crutch. Next thing you know people will want the computer to drive the car for them too. Screw ABS, computers, rev limiters, and the like. Go out and learn to drive better. Learn to adjust the car based on feel. While I agree that it would be nice to know lap times and segment times, you can do the same thing if you're creative. I am willing to bet that many of the guys that buy these type of data systems haven't even maxed out their cars with the allowable performance goodies. That's what I can't figure out....spend $1,500 on a data system but not spend $900 on decent shocks.

 

Our best driver here in the East, Gary Kirchbaum, primarily uses his system for lap times and to validate what he feels in the car. In his case, he knew how to get the maximum from the car before he got the system, not vice versa, which I personally think is a big difference. The guys trying to use the system to lower their lap times by seconds in order to run in the front, instead of trying to shave off a few tenths, are the guys that should focus on their cars and driving first.

 

With that said, I will concede that it's easy for me to say all this because I spent 350,000 miles behind the wheel of my Mustang before putting it on the track, so the feel was easier for me to get without external data.

 

Kent

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First of all, I already made a post that was removed for some reason. I won't waste any time posting that information again.

 

I agree again with Ron, also with Kent. I do use the Traqmate basic, and Kent is correct about the way I use it. One thing he didn't mention is that it is a money saver in various situations. For example, I had to rebuild the engine more than once this year. We didn't know why it was overheating so severely, but the Traqmate allowed me to rule out some potential causes by logging while on the track. It saved me time and money, no doubt. The system also allows me to try things, either setup related or driving related, and quantify the difference without spending even more money on track time to arrive at the same point. This supports the concept of CMC preventing the class being dominated by those with big bucks. I can't afford the time and money for track time that some can, so for me the daq system makes up the difference.

 

I still believe that there are at least a couple systems that should be allowed because they are essentially the same as what's on the list now, the difference being they are AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE. If the price point is the same as what's on the list, and they offer some combination of features that currently listed systems do, WHY NOT ALLOW THEM?

 

This isn't a case of someone wanting to use something that doesn't fit in with the current concept just because they own it. But some people are too short sighted to realize this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW, the G2X system costs $724 if you order the main unit, the gps antenna, and the power/rpm pigtail harness. This is straight from the manufacturers webstore, and is all you need. You don't have to use the display, therefore, no need to purchase it. So this gives you the equivalent to the Traqmate Basic that is already legal, and costs the same.

 

Allowing the display would be nice, but opens the argument up to other issues.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Data acquisition is simply a tool, and like any other, it's only as good as your ability to use it. But properly used, data acquisition can significantly reduce the amount of track time many people might otherwise waste making the same mistakes over and over again. Most of us have limited time and resources, and making the best use of the track time I get is my goal. I have learned a ton of things about my driving and my car with my AIM system. And frankly, considering all the functions that are built into it addition to the data recording, such as a lap-timer, shift lights, tach, and warning lights, it would be worth the price even if I didn't use it as a logger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Told you guys there is no right answer to this. This is one of those deals where people can get pretty polarized and highly opinionated, as the previous two pages clearly show. Its unfortunate, but the fact is there is no way everyone will be happy with any data acquistion rule.

 

So, since NOBODY had submitted this as something to address for '07 before this thread, I'll add it to our list and initiate a discussion with the officials.

 

Let me warn all of you: you might not like the result.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me warn all of you: you might not like the result.

 

I see no reason to revisit this rule

 

...I wonder what I could get on EBay for my MyChron 3 Gold when they ban all of the systems...

 

 

-Don

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since this topic regards a technology that I wish to employ next season, I would like to chime in with my 2 cents worth.

 

I understand the basis of CMC and all other spec series is a level playing field focusing on the drivers and not their funding. I like this aspect. I agree with Kent 100% that time spent in the car is the best investment. I am now finally on that road . I also agree with Gary and Matt that data analysis will help maximize the time some of us get to spend on the track. What difference does it make if you spend 1000$ on a daq system or spend 10,000$ on track time, suspension swaps, motor work, shop time, dyno time...etc etc etc...?

 

I am going to make a decision on a daq system that best fits my needs and my cost:benefit ratio. It would be fantastic if I am able to use this system in CMC. If not, I will use it at any of the other club events that I attend during the year. Why sell what you have and know? Use it elsewhere to prep for race day.

 

Another deciding factor for me is going to be what the other guys in my region are using. It will be a huge benefit for me to get the most out of a system if I employ the same equipment that Gary, Ron, Devin and Brian are using. Chances are that I will see them at non-NASA events in my region as well.

 

Bottom line: I hope the rule, if changed, will not limit us from using equipment that provides NO advantage over what is listed as acceptable.

 

We have to keep in mind that keeping a level playing field also means that some in CMC can barely make the few events that they attend, and this type of information can help them maximize their track time. I have watched at every event all the help that everyone gives each other. This is one of the reasons I entered. If we are all helping one another go faster, is this not an extension of that same principal? The instructor side of me thinks that digital info analyzed after a session is yet another way to help a student of fellow racer. Perhaps a solution to this is to make a system in each region available to anyone on a signup before hand basis. That may make any perceived advantages disappear.

 

Thanks for listening.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But my co-driver wants to add one to compare notes so we may both inprove our driving skills.
So if you don't have one yet, why not buy one on the approved list?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...