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Red Tornado

TTU/street legal cars?? Seperate group idea

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Red Tornado

Greg, like your ideas and all sound right on. Easy to inspect at the track.

 

Like 1 and 2 and $100k cap.

 

Like cats, registration, windshield, passenger seat., same suspension mounting points.

The 2nd group here really makes a nice clear cut and allows alot of freedom and really easy inspection for compliance. Cats really makes it mostly a street legal class also. Love that piece.

 

That sounds really fair and a good run what you brung true street car class. That could be pretty damn exciting.

 

I am all in for that. I will have to do things to be competitive but that is the way it should be and at least now a few of us will have a shot.

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Neon2dmaX
Greg, like your ideas and all sound right on. Easy to inspect at the track.

 

Like 1 and 2 and $100k cap.

 

Like cats, registration, windshield, passenger seat., same suspension mounting points.

The 2nd group here really makes a nice clear cut and allows alot of freedom and really easy inspection for compliance. Cats really makes it mostly a street legal class also. Love that piece.

 

That sounds really fair and a good run what you brung true street car class. That could be pretty damn exciting.

 

I am all in for that. I will have to do things to be competitive but that is the way it should be and at least now a few of us will have a shot.

 

Stop the presses! As I see the proposed rule, a TTE car (e.g. Shawn Meze's Volkswagen Scirocco) could run without a cat, but a TTU car must be equipped with one. Something doesen't sound quite right about this. Registration? Pass state inspection? Que???

 

I certainly can understand the concerns of the TTU drivers that are running "street" cars against pure race cars. Of course, most have the option of limiting their mods just a bit and running in TTA.

 

If there were going to be any split of the TTU class, I would think that the most ligical split would be segregating purpose built race cars from the cars that were originally built for and capable of being run on the street (even if their mods push them into TTU). The rule could be adjusted to transition TTU-Street cars into the TTU-Race class if certain mods are made (e.g. switch to tube frame).

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Shawn M.
Stop the presses! As I see the proposed rule, a TTE car (e.g. Shawn Meze's Volkswagen Scirocco) could run without a cat, but a TTU car must be equipped with one. Something doesen't sound quite right about this. Registration? Pass state inspection? Que???

 

 

But, there already are points added for removing the cat, and points for having a header, and most all the mods already discussed, no?

 

The more I think on this topic, the more I think that the rules in general are already good as they are. I also get a certain SCCA vibe that were after creating a class to accomidate a couple people so they can be competative? (I hope im wrong here but I left the SCCA for a pile of reasons. That be one of em.)

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FocusTed
Stop the presses! As I see the proposed rule, a TTE car (e.g. Shawn Meze's Volkswagen Scirocco) could run without a cat, but a TTU car must be equipped with one. Something doesen't sound quite right about this. Registration? Pass state inspection? Que???

 

 

But, there already are points added for removing the cat, and points for having a header, and most all the mods already discussed, no?

 

The more I think on this topic, the more I think that the rules in general are already good as they are. I also get a certain SCCA vibe that were after creating a class to accomidate a couple people so they can be competative? (I hope im wrong here but I left the SCCA for a pile of reasons. That be one of em.)

 

I'm kind on the same page as Shawn and Dave. I think if there's any changes in a car running TTU we have to look at the car. Is the car maybe overclassed to begin with? I also feel adding more classes is not the best way. We want all the classes filled, not just one or two people in each class. We even have a lower class (TTG) that hardly anyone runs in.

 

I do have one idea based on the changes we made from last year. I know last year we add more mod points for cars. But, we didn't change how many points it takes to move up a class. Since we add the more mod points, shouldn't we add more points to move up???

 

I also do have one thing to say. Let's not just make changes for the sake of making changes. If there's no real gain, why make the change??

 

I personally think the rules are great, maybe a few changes here and there, but no need to add another class when all the classes are not filled. At least it's something to think about.

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Red Tornado

Comparing to SCCA being more open. Let's be candid NASA has a racing class for just about everything and many have few if any racers most weekend.

Besides I agree am not an SCCA fan at all in recent years.

 

Bottom line is there are 10 or so cars that with almost no mods at all get bumped to TTU (and some are already classed there). Considering a full load GT1 or Transam car can run in TTU that doesn't seem correct given that every other timetrial grouping probably has some equality to it.

 

I'll be at the nationals one way or the other anyway but I hate going just to run for fun and never even have a chance (and I am sure I am not alone in that).

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Gumball

Hi Carl,

 

I am going to wait and see how Greg addresses this issue before making any final decisions. Rest assured though that I intend to split the class on a REGIONAL level if it is not done so at the NATIONAL level. There is simply too much variation in car abilities right now in the TTU class.

 

Hang in there.

 

John

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Wanna-Be Racing

I'm going to chime in here on this. The Smog thing I don't think will work. My car is smog exempt because of age but still very competative and street legal. I'm not TTU but I could modify to that point if I choose to. IMO the TTU class was good for the guys that mod their TTA or TTB car so much that they were in a class of their own. (TTU) Now we are getting racecars jumping in and creating an even higher class (TT?). It's tuff to lump all racecars into the same class though. An ASC car is going to do better laps than a pro-7 but they are both purpose built cars.

I don't know how to fix it but I do like running on the track with Racecars.

I can understand the dihlema. Just not an easy solution.

Later!

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Carl Byck

Keith, good points, and thus the dilema. I agree a ZO6 ought not to be racing against a GTA car, but then again, should I ? Right now I am, and suspect I will continue to. This brings up the question of what measure we will use. It seems to me that we need to look at a cars capability, not the drivers capability. The fact remains that a well driven T1 car (not that far from stock) is capable of breaking, or equaling the TTU record, sooo, should we group ZO6s with me because they are capable in the right hands of beating me, or should we consider the drivers? The ZO6 has a power to weight ratio close to many of the dominant TTU cars. It has bigger brakes, a 20 year newer suspension design, and a lower CD. I am not picking on this model, just using it as an example. I will never have equal brakes, or the advantages afforded by a double A-Arm suspension. Put a set of high end shocks on that car with the mods mentioned above, and you are a T1 car without the weight penalty of a cage.

Remember, there are MANY parts of California that have no smog, and no inspection. I can register my car at my mother in laws, and not smog it ever.

Ultimately we will have to choose between small classes, and absolute equality. I maintain that the disparity is more of a driver issue than a car issue. Many good drivers could probably drive my car alot faster than I, and that (car ability) should be the basis for classing IMHO. Take a look at the track records for Thunderhill for the race classes(NASA, and SCCA), look at the similarities, and disparities to the TT classing/records, it will add a dimension to the thought process that I think we really need. By looking at the records, one hopes that the cars will be near their maxpotential, mitigating the the greatest possible degree perceptions created by our experiences with various drivers and classes. Thanks, Carl

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Pat L.

My suggestion for a TTU segregation:

 

TTUS or "street" class:

Any car having four wheels which retains its homologated floorpan and suspension pick up points (I say pick up points because you don't want a factory unibody car with a tubular front stub running in TTUS). "S" cars should retain a silouette true to the original. Front and rear windscreens are required. I think a fairly liberal modification policy would be appropriate for the nature of the TTU class. I think former T1, ITE and even World Challenge cars should be allowed to run as "street" cars.

 

TTUR or "Race car" class:

Any car having four wheels which does not retain the factory floorpan or suspension pick up points. Any car that was never homologated and certified for use by either the DOT or TUV. Any car which does not run a front and rear windscreen. Any car that does not run fenders.

 

That basically puts everything that was built from day one as a race car in TTUR. People that started with a street car (even a body in white) would still get to run with other full-body cars.

 

My $.02 anyways.

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Neon2dmaX
My suggestion for a TTU segregation:

 

TTUS or "street" class:

Any car having four wheels which retains its homologated floorpan and suspension pick up points (I say pick up points because you don't want a factory unibody car with a tubular front stub running in TTUS). "S" cars should retain a silouette true to the original. Front and rear windscreens are required. I think a fairly liberal modification policy would be appropriate for the nature of the TTU class. I think former T1, ITE and even World Challenge cars should be allowed to run as "street" cars.

 

TTUR or "Race car" class:

Any car having four wheels which does not retain the factory floorpan or suspension pick up points. Any car that was never homologated and certified for use by either the DOT or TUV. Any car which does not run a front and rear windscreen. Any car that does not run fenders.

 

That basically puts everything that was built from day one as a race car in TTUR. People that started with a street car (even a body in white) would still get to run with other full-body cars.

My $.02 anyways.

 

Sounds a bit familiar... yesterday I wrote: "If there were going to be any split of the TTU class, I would think that the most ligical split would be segregating purpose built race cars from the cars that were originally built for and capable of being run on the street (even if their mods push them into TTU). The rule could be adjusted to transition TTU-Street cars into the TTU-Race class if certain mods are made (e.g. switch to tube frame)." As for class designations, I would stick with TTU for the street cars and TTR for the race cars.

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Red Tornado

I still liked Greg's basic easy to inspect list.

 

The bottom line is like everyone you want to run and have a shot.

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Neon2dmaX
I still liked Greg's basic easy to inspect list.

 

Hmmm.... let's look at Greg's list: "the real distinction is whether the car was 1) manufactured to be a street car (vs. a purpose built race car, tube frame, never street legal, etc.), 2) DOT approved tires. The additional considerations (if any) could be some of those mentioned above, like vehicle registration, catalytic converter, retail price limit (? $100K, ? $150K, etc), windshield glass, passenger seat, altered suspension mount points, etc.--all things that we can easily verify at the track."

 

Item number one ie easy enough, and makes sense. I'm not so sure about item number 2, especially since all other classes would be eligible to run non DOT race slicks without being categorized as a "race" car. I'm farily certain that the rest make no sense at all. For example, my Spec Neon is currently registered and emissions legal (with CAT), but it isn't required to be in order to be classed TTE. Retail price? Is that new or used? All of the other things are already adding points that may bump the car into TTU, so it wouldn't be fair to add a double penalty. When all is said and done, the only real disctnction is whether the car is or was purpose built for the track. In fact, I have no real objection to the less powerful "race" cars being classed in the lower classes (e.g. why should a Formula 500, Formula V or a Legends car run in TTU?)

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Shawn M.
I'm farily certain that the rest make no sense at all. For example, my Spec Neon is currently registered and emissions legal (with CAT), but it isn't required to be in order to be classed TTE.

 

 

For TT you do not need a cat to run however removing it does give you mod points. Also removing smog equipment already dings you another point.

 

 

Retail price? Is that new or used? All of the other things are already adding points that may bump the car into TTU, so it wouldn't be fair to add a double penalty.

 

 

When I do the 1 Lap of America event, they class cars by the price of the car when it was new. I think for TT, this is simply overkill.

 

The issue at hand is a car with + points for being a bad ass production vehicle with just a couple mods to bump it into TTU. The simple fix here is to change the + points enough to allow this (and others like it) to stay in TTA. The owner obviously doesnt want to mod the car further so keeping it in TTA makes sense to me.

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Greg G.

Actually, Shawn, the real issue as I see it is that it's not fair to have a former street car (especially sedans like the S4, Evo, STi) that are highly modified up to TTU, to run against a Radical, NASA ASC or PT, NASCAR road track car, ALMS, Daytona Prototype, or even some of the 700+ hp monster Porsches that we've seen in SoCal, etc.

 

The first set of TT rules actually had two more classes for "never street legal or open wheel race cars"--one was "large bore" and the other was "small bore". We deleted the classes because we don't mix open wheel with closed wheel cars, and we didn't have any participation in either of the classes in any region. At this point, there are some of these cars coming out. The smaller bore cars (especially the spec cars) like the Baby Grands, Legends, Thunder Roadsters can be put into a base class just like we've done with other NASA race classes. But, that still leaves the monsters to deal with. The question is how to keep the 700+ hp monster twin turbo Porsche race car that does 1:39's at Cal Speedway and sub 1:20's at Willow Springs or the GTA or DP car from "competing" against (or should I say slaughtering) our TTU sedans, Mustangs, etc.

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Shawn M.

Well now, thats different.

 

Can you say, TTUS and TTUR?

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Red Tornado

That's where this all started in thought.

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Carl Byck

Well, as I mentioned earlier, the slick tires CANNOT be part of the equation unless ANY car running slicks would bump to TTUR....

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