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Greg G.

YOUR THOUGHTS--TT Rules Revisions 2006

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Pat L.
I've seen you drive through turn 8 at Willow, and I can tell you that you are doing about 40 mph.

 

 

I was gonna be NICE and say 45mph.....

 

Guys guys...when you're running more than 20:1 lbs per whp (yes, I'm serious for my NX), it's tough to pedal much faster than that.

 

On a couple of those windy days at Willow, we all would have been in the 1:20's had our cars been equiped with a mast and main sails... Greg, what's the point increase for that mod?

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Monster8V
On a couple of those windy days at Willow, we all would have been in the 1:20's had our cars been equiped with a mast and main sails... Greg, what's the point increase for that mod?

 

 

Depending on the make, its covered under the update/backdate rule!

 

Gobble-gobble!!

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firehawkclone
This may have been discused all ready, but could wieght removal be staged in 2 or 3 level's?

 

Like I get 2 point's for removing a 25lb rear seat, the same as a guy thats remove's 600lbs.

 

Just a thought!

 

Has this been looked at before? Or is there no fair way to police it.

 

And big brake upgrade's, has this been looked at?

 

Some run a little bigger brake from a newer year, But it's a far cry from a 4 or 6 piston Brembo upgrade.

 

Sorry for the Newb?'s

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MOTORGOSPEL Ministries
I've gotta disagree here Shawn. How does it make him FASTER? All it does is allow his car to hit its naturally-occuring, physics-constrained speed. The points for engine mods all pertain to things that actually make power either by enhancing volumetric efficiency, lowering rotating mass, increasing valve lift and duration, etc. Removing a governor doesn't do anything of the sort. Here's the problem you run into. Say a car had a governor at 80 mph. That would mean that on EVERY track, the car would basically be a non-runner without that bugaboo removed.

 

The problem is simply that you can't arbitrarily draw the line at 80 mph, 90 mph, 100 mph. It doesn't make any logical sense. Just because some safety-nazi OEM saddles their car with an artifical limiter doesn't mean someone should have to take on a point for getting rid of ONLY the limiter. Now if he were to raise his redline, that might be another story.

 

This coming from a guy who is Ted's direct competition.

 

 

#2 is to reflash the ECU. Now NASA will have a ECU flash Spec Flash for the Focus, and really only changes the Speed Governor. Would re-flashing the ECU to get rid of the Speed governor still cost a point????

 

 

id say regardless of if it makes more power or removes a gov, it makes you FASTER in the end, so why not get the point for it? Also by giving a point, it already dings those who would remap the ECU for more POWER and not claim it.

 

Just my TTE thoughts...

 

(TTE same as .02?)

 

We have a semantics problem regarding the use of the word faster. Depending on the context, faster could be used colloquially to mean a higher top speed or a higher average speed or even (really colloquially) more power.

 

The meaningful number in TT is lap time so this suggests that the relevant definition of faster to most TTrs is average speed (averaged over the distance covered in one lap). The actual distance covered in one lap can vary slightly due to line but this is a small pertubation generally less than 100 feet on a 2.5 mile lap.

 

If a car has the power and the handling to do 140 on the banking at Fontana and a governer keeps it down to 110, disabling the governer will reduce lap time by more than 5 seconds. This increases the average speed much less than 30 MPH but given that the TT is a competition of laptime, the car is colloquially-speaking faster in the sense that counts for the competition.

 

I apologize in advance if that was already obvious to everybody.

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loudes13

I'd like to track cars that are closer to stock. 20 pts of mods are a lot to give up in the current class structure. I'd rather better drivers take home the trophies, not the ones who want to spend more...

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Greg G.

I think that you might want to use a few of those points with the S2000--Stock, it doesn't handle like your E36 M3 did from what I've seen. We had an S2000 (supercharged) that ran with us last year (with a team of drivers) on street tires in TTD, and despite the extra power, they never really got the car to perform like I've seen with other S2000's with basic handling mods. But, perhaps you will be able to dial it in better and still stick with the "A Stock" rules that you also run under. Hmmm, maybe some NASA TT tires that are streetable to get you to the track, and street tires for MC? I think that lack of tire grip was their biggest issue.

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Greg G.

Some run a little bigger brake from a newer year, But it's a far cry from a 4 or 6 piston Brembo upgrade.

Updating and backdating of part assemblies will (probably) be legal within different years of the same model vehicle, as long as the donor car is in the same or lower base class as the competing car. So, the situation you describe above may be covered for some vehicles.

 

As far as the weight reduction points are concerned, we are looking at a variety of alternatives, and weighing their feasibility (I know, that was bad )

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Greg G.

That said, Ted and I WERE talking about how to prevent cheating. This whole thread here is about this mod or that mod, but I think fundamentally there needs to be some checks and balances system to discourage cheating. Up until now it's mostly been the honor system, but as programs grow there is always a greater propensity for cheaters to enter the fold.

 

In China, people don't commit petty crime much (from what I hear). Why? It's not because they don't think that they can get away with it 95% of the time. It's because they are going to get severely beaten by that big ole stick if they do get caught. Their system saves a lot of time and money on enforcement by sacrificing the guilty party, even for minor offenses. No, I'm not buying a big stick . But, I think we can discourage the majority of "rule bending" by having severe penalties for infractions (like DQ and even expulsion), along with spot checks/surprise impound inspections, etc. If we were competing for big $$$, then it wouldn't work, because the risk/reward ratio would start heading south (as evidenced by some of the stuff that we've seen and heard about in the top level professional race series). But, since winning a TT Championship (regional or national) is still primarily for driver pride, bragging rights, exposure to sponsorship opportunities, or to help advertise sponsor's products, the penalty of being DQ'd, expelled, or suspended publicly should provide some serious negative reinforcement.

 

As far as impound inspections are concerned, the TT administration may be fairly crafty in it's use of available experts and/or technical equipment, especially if it is suspected that a competitor is violating the rules. Also, we are trying to write the rules to make it much easier to determine if a car is out of compliance.

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loudes13
I think that you might want to use a few of those points with the S2000--Stock, it doesn't handle like your E36 M3 did from what I've seen. We had an S2000 (supercharged) that ran with us last year (with a team of drivers) on street tires in TTD, and despite the extra power, they never really got the car to perform like I've seen with other S2000's with basic handling mods. But, perhaps you will be able to dial it in better and still stick with the "A Stock" rules that you also run under. Hmmm, maybe some NASA TT tires that are streetable to get you to the track, and street tires for MC? I think that lack of tire grip was their biggest issue.

 

I know where you're coming from. I'm intending to buy another set of wheels and run R tires for nasa. I just hate having to run to different setups in two 'closest to stock' classes. I also have grown tired of changing tires all the time (or trailering).

 

Here in the midwest we have MC TT and 100-130 cars show up for our events. The majority of them run in stock classes, on street tires. Matbe lower points wouldn't float nation wide, but they sure would here!

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Driven
I'd like to track cars that are closer to stock. 20 pts of mods are a lot to give up in the current class structure. I'd rather better drivers take home the trophies, not the ones who want to spend more...

I agree and disagree.

 

I only ran two events, but those two events I took TT-D by a rather hefty margin. I even had to bump up 2 or 3 classes after all kinds of mods just to get there. If I had removed a few meaningless mods, i'd be in TT-E and the margin would be even more drastic. so, the 20points is kinda a lot before bumping up...

 

however, I don't want to drive a stock car on a track either, but still be able to be competitive (if i was in TT-B, i'd get murdered).

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Greg G.

Hey Kam, where have you been? TTD got much more competitive as the year went on. As well, you wouldn't have had such a big win if a few 2004 TTD drivers hadn't bumped up to TTC . Also, it's 15 points, not 20 points before jumping up a class in the 2005 rules. Your car was actually classed just right. Your best lap time at the events you competed in was 6 seconds slower than the TTC best, and 5 seconds faster than the TTE best. Your TTD competition just needed to step it up to your level. It would have been a problem if you could have taken off some of your mods to slide into TTE though. That's why certain mod points will probably be going up this year.

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Driven
Hey Kam, where have you been?

I haven't been doing much driving this year... took a year off to recoup some funds from the past 5 years of racing

 

As well, you wouldn't have had such a big win if a few 2004 TTD drivers hadn't bumped up to TTC

hahaha, could it be a certain SRT4 driver?

 

It would have been a problem if you could have taken off some of your mods to slide into TTE though. That's why certain mod points will probably be going up this year.

if i get my act together and run next year, I'll likely be in TT-C. But, least I'll finally have a LSD. FWD, no LSD, only 150whp...spinning one wheel around turns...sucks.

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GAC

if i get my act together and run next year, I'll likely be in TT-C. But, least I'll finally have a LSD. FWD, no LSD, only 150whp...spinning one wheel around turns...sucks.

 

My car's viscous LSD is fried. I know whatcha mean.

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MOTORGOSPEL Ministries

I would like to spend less money than we did last season. We're still going over last year's receipts so I'm not sure yet how much of our expenditure was non-recurring (eg. engine) vs. recurring (eg. tires).

 

Greg has done really well to structure the TT classes to give fair competition whether somebody has a $1K annual budget or a $100K annual budget. Nonetheless, there may be room for improvement.

 

In theory, you choose a car and a class that fit your budget and within that class, the best prepared car and/or best driver wins. Sometimes, however the competition ends up being one of escalating dollars despite our best intentions.

 

I would be interested to hear any thoughts regarding neutralizing the dollar factor a little bit. I have some thoughts but I don't want to lead the witness.

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FocusTed

Maybe we should look at the brakes as well. I know the rules now say to add points for big brakes and brake pads, but nothing about changing brake discs. We might want to add another category about brake disc changes.

 

Right now we can change the discs and not take any points as long as we use OEM spec, but we can have them slotted or cross-drilled and still receive no points. Even though this is a small performance gain, it is a gain even though it’s OEM specs.

 

What is considered a big brake change??? If I update my Focus to SVT brakes, what that be a Big Brake change????

 

Now this being all said, if we're going to add a bunch of points for mods, I do believe we need to add more then just 15 points to move up. Otherwise we'll have a bunch of cars at the top.

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Greg G.

Brakes are slated to change to pads +1, rotors +1, calipers +1. Any upgrade in any of them will now get points. BBK still gets +3 because you get +1 from each.

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FocusTed
Brakes are slated to change to pads +1, rotors +1, calipers +1. Any upgrade in any of them will now get points. BBK still gets +3 because you get +1 from each.

 

That's good. It makes since. Now is that for any rotor change?

Do we have to use OEM rotors or can we change brands as long as we still keep the same specs??

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Greg G.

There is a new rule that defines what constitutes a non-OEM replacement part for the purpose of points assessment. Certain aftermarket parts built to the same specs (size, shape, weight) and with the same functional characteristics with no increase in performance will be legal as replacements without points.

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GAC
Brakes are slated to change to pads +1, rotors +1, calipers +1. Any upgrade in any of them will now get points. BBK still gets +3 because you get +1 from each.

 

Greg,

 

That doesn't really make sense. One could have say a 10 x 1-inch rotor, go to a slotted rotor and pick up a +1. On the other hand, one could get a big brake kit which contains a 12 x 1.5-inch slotted rotor and still only pay the +1 for the slotting, while at the same time receiving the absolutely FREE heat dissipation benefit from two inches more diameter and a half an inch more thickness.

 

Unless you're planning on upping the points for a BBK, this won't work out. One could put on a performance pad, slotted rotor, and slightly better caliper which are all the same size and take just as many points as a true BBK.

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zuperdave
Brakes are slated to change to pads +1, rotors +1, calipers +1. Any upgrade in any of them will now get points. BBK still gets +3 because you get +1 from each.

 

IIRC, my 1.5L SOHC Honda Civic VX (rated at something like 92 HP, with the REALLY high MPG transmission) base class is TTF. I haven't touched the engine (unless you count the K&N air filter) or trans, but I already have enough suspension mods to bump me to TTE, where I'm running with Spec Miatas and Honda Challenge H4 cars. Hmmmm...

 

If I read this proposal correctly, the intent is to assign additional points for upgraded brakes. So my pokey little VX gets no engine mods, but more points for upgraded aftermarket (NOT racing) pads or better OEM Honda brakes (Integra GSR rotors and calipers, a legal swap for a Honda Challenge H4 car, see above).

 

I'll have to go back to the points calculator, but this might be enough to push me into TTD, where I'd be running with a SUPERCHARGED Miata and who knows who.

 

I don't think TTD sounds like the correct classification for my car.

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GAC

 

IIRC, my 1.5L SOHC Honda Civic VX (rated at something like 92 HP, with the REALLY high MPG transmission) base class is TTF. I haven't touched the engine (unless you count the K&N air filter) or trans, but I already have enough suspension mods to bump me to TTE, where I'm running with Spec Miatas and Honda Challenge H4 cars. Hmmmm...

 

If I read this proposal correctly, the intent is to assign additional points for upgraded brakes. So my pokey little VX gets no engine mods, but more points for upgraded aftermarket (NOT racing) pads or better OEM Honda brakes (Integra GSR rotors and calipers, a legal swap for a Honda Challenge H4 car, see above).

 

I'll have to go back to the points calculator, but this might be enough to push me into TTD, where I'd be running with a SUPERCHARGED Miata and who knows who.

 

I don't think TTD sounds like the correct classification for my car.

 

Dave,

 

I agree with almost all of your reasoning here, and I think others will as well. That said, you aren't competing with SM and H4 cars. They are respectively TTD and TTC cars if you go by the 2005 classifications. In fact, the only race car in TTE that's listed is the Spec Neon.

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GAC

Greg,

 

What about drum to disc conversions? What about BBK front upgrades and BBK rear upgrades? Would you take points for both?

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Monster8V
Greg,

 

What about drum to disc conversions? What about BBK front upgrades and BBK rear upgrades? Would you take points for both?

 

 

 

and also if the update backdate rule is effected by this?

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FocusTed

and also if the update backdate rule is effected by this?

 

I have been confused about that one. Can I update my brakes to the present day Focus???

 

As far as the brakes, I'm sure the Big Brakes will cost more points then just replacing calipers, discs, and pads. It would have too.

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Greg G.

That's good. It makes sense....

 

 

Greg,

That doesn't really make sense.

 

Geez, glad we have a consensus here.

 

One could have say a 10 x 1-inch rotor, go to a slotted rotor and pick up a +1. On the other hand, one could get a big brake kit which contains a 12 x 1.5-inch slotted rotor and still only pay the +1 for the slotting, while at the same time receiving the absolutely FREE heat dissipation benefit from two inches more diameter and a half an inch more thickness.

And, you pay for having the 12 inch rotor because you need to change the pads and caliper also to put the 12 inch rotor on. Did you think it was more fair when someone could upgrade their rotors to slotted, drilled, cryo'd,...whatever, for free? We can't charge half points.

 

One could put on a performance pad, slotted rotor, and slightly better caliper which are all the same size and take just as many points as a true BBK.

Why would you do this? If you are changing out the whole system anyway, why not put something on that will really help, or just change the pads (and fluid) for only one point and be done with it. If you decide to do it anyway (to save money or to avoid having to change wheels with a true BBK), then sorry.

 

If I read this proposal correctly, the intent is to assign additional points for upgraded brakes. So my pokey little VX gets no engine mods, but more points for upgraded aftermarket (NOT racing) pads or better OEM Honda brakes (Integra GSR rotors and calipers, a legal swap for a Honda Challenge H4 car, see above).

Actually, the rule doesn't assign additional points for upgraded brakes, it just now assigns a point for those that have upgraded rotors separately. If you were using brakes (rotors, calipers, pads) from an Integra GSR, and you don't have an Integra GSR (which you don't), then you should have already been taking +3 for the upgraded brake kit. Since the rules were not as clear in 2005 as 2006, and it said "big brake kit", I can see how some may have misinterpreted this. However, a BBK is anything that is bigger than your OEM brakes. Also, I fail to see how we should change the points assessment for someone that chooses to upgrade pads, but not use the best pads possible for their car at the track? Again, no half points. And, nobody is going to waste the time making lists of every brake pad model ever made to classify them as +1 or +2, etc.

 

What about drum to disc conversions? What about BBK front upgrades and BBK rear upgrades? Would you take points for both?

We have considered an extra point or two for drum to disc conversions, but they already take 3 points (just like the rest of us with BBK's), and it really is more of a safety issue than upgrading from stock discs. So, the consensus of the Directors at this point is to let them upgrade to discs for the 3 points. Front, rear, whatever, +3 still. If you don't think it's worth 3 points, don't do the mod.

 

Shawn is correct that some cars may be able to take advantage of the update/backdate rule, but I'm not sure how many of them will meet the criteria. Ted, if the new Focus is in a higher base class than your car, you cannot update. If it is in the same class or lower, you can update, but there are other limitations regarding different models of the same car designated by various model letters, etc. (ie. a ZX3 is not a ZTX, a Mustang GT is not a Mustang Mach 1, etc). Updating is really for the exact same model over different years.

 

As far as the brakes, I'm sure the Big Brakes will cost more points then just replacing calipers, discs, and pads. It would have too.

 

A big brake kit is nothing more than a replacement of calipers, discs, and pads. They come in different sizes, and provide different levels of performance gain. It would be difficult (and not worth the hassle--from you guys ) to try to make a point differential between an 11.5 inch rotor kit and a 12 inch rotor kit. While brakes are a perfomance item, they still have a bigger safety component compared to other mods of the engine, suspension, aero, wt. reduction, etc. So, we give them to you relatively cheaply to encourage you to get the good stuff, but not for free since they are still a performance mod (and many of you will complain if we just make brakes free--won't you )

 

Thanks for all of your comments. Time for a change of subject.

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