National Staff Greg G. Posted November 22, 2005 Author National Staff Share Posted November 22, 2005 Good point, the factory PH is a crappy....Maybe Greg can make an exception on that modification since it's for reliability purposes? I wouldn't count on that one SRT4 rear control arms seem to be stamped from old tin cans. I'm sure there are plenty of cars that have parts that are not quite up to the abuse that they get once we start modifying the car, and beating them up on the track. I'm not going to start the "thousand part exception freebie list". Sounds exagerated? We have over 350 listed cars in base classes (with multiple years together, making probably over 1000 cars). I'm sure that there is one weak piece on every vehicle. So I feel almost guilty asking...any anticipated release date for the new rules? Mark, I'm sorry, but it's going to take a while. I'm working everyday on them, and I almost have things put together enough to get the rest of the rules revision committee involved. This will be a collaborative process that will take some time with the over 100 issues that need to be addressed. I'm shooting for a Jan 3rd deadline (self-imposed), but I can't guarantee anything except that there will be at least 2 months before the March TT points events for preparation. If we can get everything finished and approved before Jan 3rd, then they will be released as soon as their ready. "NON-DOT" which includes alot of Hoosier tires that are not true slicks (but may be as fast, or faster than bias ply slicks) cannot be grounds for sending somebody to the top class....Just to be sure, if I managed to get my points total down to 74 would I be allowed in TTA ? (guessing no ) Carl Byck #77 TTU RX7 Hoosier R3S05's are DOT approved (but not recommended for street use). Slicks vs DOT approved will be debated in regard to the potential new TTU (vs new TTR or TTSU) class. I imagine that the final answer will end up based on the purpose of the class split, which I have outlined my thoughts about on the other thread. It's a very debatable point, with good ideas on both sides, and at this point, I haven't decided which way I'm leaning. In regard to your personal points totals, why wouldn't we allow you to run in TTA if you come down to the required number of points? But, remember, there are likely going to be some new points this year (and some decreases), and your car could catch a few of them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 SRT4 rear control arms seem to be stamped from old tin cans. I'm sure there are plenty of cars that have parts that are not quite up to the abuse that they get once we start modifying the car, and beating them up on the track. I'm not going to start the "thousand part exception freebie list". Sounds exagerated? We have over 350 listed cars in base classes (with multiple years together, making probably over 1000 cars). I'm sure that there is one weak piece on every vehicle. I know the Focus has the same problem with lower control arms. In Spec Focus Series we were going to allow Modifying of the lower control arms because of a safety issue. If you put a 25mm+ Sway Bar in the rear of a Focus, you're going to have problems someday. The SVT Foci doesn't have the same problem because they have a different Lower Control Arms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Okay, I have another question. All Focus models have a Speed governor of 110mph. Now there is only two ways to get rid of the speed governor #1 is to disarm the Speedometer which is what I do, but it also disarms the Odometer, which isn’t a problem for me, because my car is going to be a race car someday, so it won’t be sold as a street legal car. It also throws off my ECU fuel mixture which allows my car to run too rich. So, I really loose HP. #2 is to reflash the ECU. Now NASA will have a ECU flash Spec Flash for the Focus, and really only changes the Speed Governor. Would re-flashing the ECU to get rid of the Speed governor still cost a point???? Now this is only a problem for me at Willow Springs and California Speedway where I'm going over a 110 MPH. It kinda of funny when people ask me how fast I take turn 9 at Willow and I say "I don't know, I have no Speedometer". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted November 22, 2005 Members Share Posted November 22, 2005 #2 is to reflash the ECU. Now NASA will have a ECU flash Spec Flash for the Focus, and really only changes the Speed Governor. Would re-flashing the ECU to get rid of the Speed governor still cost a point???? id say regardless of if it makes more power or removes a gov, it makes you FASTER in the end, so why not get the point for it? Also by giving a point, it already dings those who would remap the ECU for more POWER and not claim it. Just my TTE thoughts... (TTE same as .02?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 #2 is to reflash the ECU. Now NASA will have a ECU flash Spec Flash for the Focus, and really only changes the Speed Governor. Would re-flashing the ECU to get rid of the Speed governor still cost a point???? id say regardless of if it makes more power or removes a gov, it makes you FASTER in the end, so why not get the point for it? Also by giving a point, it already dings those who would remap the ECU for more POWER and not claim it. Just my TTE thoughts... (TTE same as .02?) Don't worry, I have a special file for TTE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAC Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 I've gotta disagree here Shawn. How does it make him FASTER? All it does is allow his car to hit its naturally-occuring, physics-constrained speed. The points for engine mods all pertain to things that actually make power either by enhancing volumetric efficiency, lowering rotating mass, increasing valve lift and duration, etc. Removing a governor doesn't do anything of the sort. Here's the problem you run into. Say a car had a governor at 80 mph. That would mean that on EVERY track, the car would basically be a non-runner without that bugaboo removed. The problem is simply that you can't arbitrarily draw the line at 80 mph, 90 mph, 100 mph. It doesn't make any logical sense. Just because some safety-nazi OEM saddles their car with an artifical limiter doesn't mean someone should have to take on a point for getting rid of ONLY the limiter. Now if he were to raise his redline, that might be another story. This coming from a guy who is Ted's direct competition. #2 is to reflash the ECU. Now NASA will have a ECU flash Spec Flash for the Focus, and really only changes the Speed Governor. Would re-flashing the ECU to get rid of the Speed governor still cost a point???? id say regardless of if it makes more power or removes a gov, it makes you FASTER in the end, so why not get the point for it? Also by giving a point, it already dings those who would remap the ECU for more POWER and not claim it. Just my TTE thoughts... (TTE same as .02?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAC Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Greg, Here's something you should think about when classing old cars that had standard VLSDs. In just about EVERY 1991-1994 SE-R and NX2000 the stock VLSD is completely shot. I measured my brake-away torque...and guess what...there isn't any! Perhaps you might want to consider that although these cars NEW had a functional VLSD, they are all fried after 15 years of use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Greg. I also see that a 911 Turbo is classed in TTA with * And a 933 Twin Turno is classed in TTB with *. I think those two cars should be switched Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted November 23, 2005 Author National Staff Share Posted November 23, 2005 The 993 turbo listed refers to the 355 hp version, and the 911 turbo refers to the 415 hp car. The 993 Turbo S is the 424 hp car. The "Turbo S" is a 444 hp car but is heavier than the others. I can see how it's confusing though--I blame Porsche We'll see about being more specific in the 2006 rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted November 23, 2005 Author National Staff Share Posted November 23, 2005 (edited) Greg, Here's something you should think about when classing old cars that had standard VLSDs. In just about EVERY 1991-1994 SE-R and NX2000 the stock VLSD is completely shot. I measured my brake-away torque...and guess what...there isn't any! Perhaps you might want to consider that although these cars NEW had a functional VLSD, they are all fried after 15 years of use. And......perhaps you should consider replacing it (OEM) if it's not functioning correctly so you'll be faster, especially since it's points free because it came stock I'm pretty sure that I posted above that I AM NOT going to start the "thousand part exception freebie list". Edited November 23, 2005 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAC Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 (edited) Greg, I know of no 993 Turbo that is 355 hp. Look here: http://www.911turbo.com/turboclub/history/history_993_95.html ...and here. http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/Used/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/2282/act/usedcarreviewspecs/ The 993 turbo listed refers to the 355 hp version, and the 911 turbo refers to the 415 hp car. The 993 Turbo S is the 424 hp car. The "Turbo S" is a 444 hp car but is heavier than the others. I can see how it's confusing though--I blame Porsche We'll see about being more specific in the 2006 rules. Edited November 23, 2005 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAC Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 I had a feeling you'd say that which is TOTALLY fine by me. I just want to make sure that the car was classed with that in mind. Not complaining, just seeking clarification. Slow cars have rights too. Greg, Here's something you should think about when classing old cars that had standard VLSDs. In just about EVERY 1991-1994 SE-R and NX2000 the stock VLSD is completely shot. I measured my brake-away torque...and guess what...there isn't any! Perhaps you might want to consider that although these cars NEW had a functional VLSD, they are all fried after 15 years of use. And......perhaps you should consider replacing it if it's not functioning correctly so you'll be faster, especially since it's points free because it came stock I'm pretty sure that I posted above that I AM NOT going to start the "thousand part exception freebie list". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted November 23, 2005 Author National Staff Share Posted November 23, 2005 Greg,I know of no 993 Turbo that is 355 hp. Look here: http://www.911turbo.com/turboclub/history/history_993_95.html ...and here. http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/Used/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/2282/act/usedcarreviewspecs/ Good catch Dan. I blame Porsche again for having such a screwed up model number system........ After checking multiple sources, I agree that it appears that there is no 355 hp 993 turbo. The lowest hp 993 turbo seems to be 408 hp. What I've also found is that we are going to have to add a bunch of base classifications for the pre-933 turbo (the 3.0, 3.3, and 3.6). What I suspect happened in our TT database is that the 1993 and 1994 (in USA) 911 turbo (also known as 964 and 965 models) with 360 hp got their hp numbers accidentally put into the 993 turbo's spot on the spreadsheet table. I imagine that it happened since the first 993's came out in '93-'94 and it may have been assumed that the turbo's that year were of the same model (993), when actually the first 993 Turbos came out in '95. Or, maybe somehow the 1993 numbers got put in with the 993 based on that transposition? Anyway, I think that I've got some reliable numbers for the 911 turbos going back to 1974. The alternative is that we can just say that any Porsche just runs in TTU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted November 23, 2005 Members Share Posted November 23, 2005 I've gotta disagree here Shawn. How does it make him FASTER? All it does is allow his car to hit its naturally-occuring, physics-constrained speed. The points for engine mods all pertain to things that actually make power either by enhancing volumetric efficiency, lowering rotating mass, increasing valve lift and duration, etc. Removing a governor doesn't do anything of the sort. Here's the problem you run into. Say a car had a governor at 80 mph. That would mean that on EVERY track, the car would basically be a non-runner without that bugaboo removed. The problem is simply that you can't arbitrarily draw the line at 80 mph, 90 mph, 100 mph. It doesn't make any logical sense. Just because some safety-nazi OEM saddles their car with an artifical limiter doesn't mean someone should have to take on a point for getting rid of ONLY the limiter. Now if he were to raise his redline, that might be another story. This coming from a guy who is Ted's direct competition. Nudge-nudge, wink-wink! Im trying to help you here brutha! Kidding aside, my thought is, if you choose a car that has a governor (WTF is that about anyways?) as part of the factory programming, then altering/deleting the gov can and will make the car ultimately faster. Thats the basics of it plus when you get into all the aftermarket chip/flash programs available, its awfully hard to police the entire field (unless you have an old car like mine, chip? Look at the fender, lots of chips...) for chip/flash mods that do more than just remove a useless speed gov. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted November 23, 2005 Members Share Posted November 23, 2005 Greg, Here's something you should think about when classing old cars that had standard VLSDs. In just about EVERY 1991-1994 SE-R and NX2000 the stock VLSD is completely shot. I measured my brake-away torque...and guess what...there isn't any! Perhaps you might want to consider that although these cars NEW had a functional VLSD, they are all fried after 15 years of use. Whats stopping you from fixing it?? Got Quaife? EDIT: oops.. Just saw Gregs reply.... mine is funnier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAC Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Nudge-nudge, wink-wink! Im trying to help you here brutha! Kidding aside, my thought is, if you choose a car that has a governor (WTF is that about anyways?) as part of the factory programming, then altering/deleting the gov can and will make the car ultimately faster. Thats the basics of it plus when you get into all the aftermarket chip/flash programs available, its awfully hard to police the entire field (unless you have an old car like mine, chip? Look at the fender, lots of chips...) for chip/flash mods that do more than just remove a useless speed gov. Haha...'preciate it, but seriously you can't punish Ted or anyone else because it's hard to police cheaters that actually do change the ignition, fuel, or wastegate duty cycle mapping. His removal of a governor doesn't make the car faster by adding power or reducing rotating mass which is what all the points for engine mods are intended to cover. That said, Ted and I WERE talking about how to prevent cheating. This whole thread here is about this mod or that mod, but I think fundamentally there needs to be some checks and balances system to discourage cheating. Up until now it's mostly been the honor system, but as programs grow there is always a greater propensity for cheaters to enter the fold. So what to do? Well, people need to believe that ALL their mods can be verified. Some are going to be really hard, but we've got to do the best we can. Pehaps tap an expert at NASA for various cars. Some guys know what power an SE-R should make with certain mods, while others know all that is Porsche or BMW tuning, for instance. There's got to be a balance stuck between the crazy SCCA teardowns for Solo II championship protests and a straight honor system. What's in place to discourage people from reflashing, porting, adding cams and cam gears, etc without claiming the points? There's gotta' be something. Shame on those guys for cheating like that, but some bad apples can and are going to cheat if they KNOW there's no way to be caught. So how to convince them they CAN be caught and CAN be DQ'd. Hmmmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAC Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Whats stopping you from fixing it?? Got Quaife? EDIT: oops.. Just saw Gregs reply.... mine is funnier! Ha, nothing but time and money. Oh and no Quaife...that's gonna add points. Gotta be something viscous like stock to not incur points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firehawkclone Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 This may have been discused all ready, but could wieght removal be staged in 2 or 3 level's? Like I get a 2 point's for removing a 25lb rear seat, the same as a guy thats remove's 600lbs. Just a thought! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 I was just throwing ideas out there for the speed governor. A lot of the new cars have them. I can see it's going to be hard to check if someone only changed the speed governor. But, it's also hard to tell if someone just flashed the ECU anyways. It really doesn't matter to me, because I can disarm the VSS to the car anyways to disarm the speed governor. But, I would really like to know how fast I'm going around turn 8 at Willow Oh well I can go by RPMs anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 The alternative is that we can just say that any Porsche just runs in TTU I agree. Maybe even put all German made cars in TTU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted November 23, 2005 Author National Staff Share Posted November 23, 2005 But, I would really like to know how fast I'm going around turn 8 at Willow Oh well I can go by RPMs anyways. I've seen you drive through turn 8 at Willow, and I can tell you that you are doing about 40 mph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 But, I would really like to know how fast I'm going around turn 8 at Willow Oh well I can go by RPMs anyways. I've seen you drive through turn 8 at Willow, and I can tell you that you are doing about 40 mph. Yeah, but if I have my head down, I can squeeze out a couple more MPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted November 23, 2005 Members Share Posted November 23, 2005 The alternative is that we can just say that any Porsche just runs in TTU I agree. Maybe even put all German made cars in TTU. I agree with Ted, but they should go there with American Ford made chick cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted November 23, 2005 Members Share Posted November 23, 2005 I've seen you drive through turn 8 at Willow, and I can tell you that you are doing about 40 mph. I was gonna be NICE and say 45mph..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAC Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 I've seen you drive through turn 8 at Willow, and I can tell you that you are doing about 40 mph. I was gonna be NICE and say 45mph..... Guys guys...when you're running more than 20:1 lbs per whp (yes, I'm serious for my NX), it's tough to pedal much faster than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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