Neon2dmaX Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 When I said "without additional points penalty", I meant without additional points penalty above the 3 points for changing out the pads, rotors, calipers, that some people thought we should assess. Wheels will be open (size included). The TT Directors are not going to spend their time on "wheel witch hunts". Tires are almost definitely............find out in a week and a few days Brakes: O.K. then, it appears that switching the rear drums to disc would result in maximum (3 point) penalty. Thus, fronts are virtually free at that point. Wheels: Not quite sure how you could call it a "wheel witch hunt" since the wheels most people use are generally readily identifiable. Probably leaves wheels as one of the best performance enhancing upgrades available without a penalty. However, the rules are the same for everyone, so it "wheelie:" doesn't matter that much. Tires: I thought that the purpose of this thread was to get the participant's comments and viewpoint on the various proposed changes. In any event, I think it makes more sense to add points for increased tire width as opposed to increased wheel diameter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted December 28, 2005 Members Share Posted December 28, 2005 Brakes: O.K. then, it appears that switching the rear drums to disc would result in maximum (3 point) penalty. Thus, fronts are virtually free at that point. . Dont forget the Update backdate rule. Wheels: Not quite sure how you could call it a "wheel witch hunt" since the wheels most people use are generally readily identifiable. Probably leaves wheels as one of the best performance enhancing upgrades available without a penalty. However, the rules are the same for everyone, so it "wheelie:" doesn't matter that much. Tires: I thought that the purpose of this thread was to get the participant's comments and viewpoint on the various proposed changes. In any event, I think it makes more sense to add points for increased tire width as opposed to increased wheel diameter. How many points do you want to add?? Remember the rules as they were for this? Plus or minus sizing of wheels/tires +1 Wheels and tires extend beyond original bodywork less than 1" +2 Wheels and tires extend beyond original bodywork 1"-2.5" +4 Wheels and tires extend beyond original bodywork 2.5"-4.5" +6 Wheels and tires extend beyond original bodywork 4.5"+ +8 As it sounds now, there will be alot of people bunched up in the top classes who dont belong there. The class structure of 05 will be lost. it werent broken but they are fixing it anyways. They should add +10 points for all yellow and blue cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon2dmaX Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 Brakes: O.K. then, it appears that switching the rear drums to disc would result in maximum (3 point) penalty. Thus, fronts are virtually free at that point. . Dont forget the Update backdate rule. Wheels: Not quite sure how you could call it a "wheel witch hunt" since the wheels most people use are generally readily identifiable. Probably leaves wheels as one of the best performance enhancing upgrades available without a penalty. However, the rules are the same for everyone, so it "wheelie:" doesn't matter that much. Tires: I thought that the purpose of this thread was to get the participant's comments and viewpoint on the various proposed changes. In any event, I think it makes more sense to add points for increased tire width as opposed to increased wheel diameter. How many points do you want to add?? Remember the rules as they were for this? Plus or minus sizing of wheels/tires +1 Wheels and tires extend beyond original bodywork less than 1" +2 Wheels and tires extend beyond original bodywork 1"-2.5" +4 Wheels and tires extend beyond original bodywork 2.5"-4.5" +6 Wheels and tires extend beyond original bodywork 4.5"+ +8 As it sounds now, there will be alot of people bunched up in the top classes who dont belong there. The class structure of 05 will be lost. it werent broken but they are fixing it anyways. They should add +10 points for all yellow and blue cars. Rear disc: On the Neon, the general concensus seems to be that the rear disc are unnecessary, maybe even detrimental. Rear lock-up can be an issue. Other cars may be different. Wheels/tires: As I understand, there are some cars (EVO?) that can utilize a substantially wider tire (and wheel) and still stay within the confines of the bodywork. IMHO, plus sizing wheel diameter alone may add some benefit due to shorter sidewall (assuminng the same overall diameter is chosen). In some cases, plus sizing is required to clear the big brake package. However, plus sizing doesn't necessarily change the width of the tire (e.g. contact patch) probably adds more to performance (or at least as much) as plus sizing the diameter. Extending the tires beyond the bodywork will generally increase the track. However, a double penalty for wide tires and increased track might seem unfair. Might want to stand by with a good set of crying towels. As for car colors... it is the red cars that should be penalized. Ask any cop... red cars are faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted December 28, 2005 Members Share Posted December 28, 2005 Rear disc: On the Neon, the general concensus seems to be that the rear disc are unnecessary, maybe even detrimental. Rear lock-up can be an issue. Other cars may be different. I concur. I weighed both my drum setup and disc setup and they at about the same. (1/2" difference for an early VW.) Rear lockup was/is an issue for me. (2 spins at Willow Springs, gads..) But, at least I wont have to worry about the wheel cylinders poping on me like ive been told by numerous VW road racers. Wheels/tires: As I understand, there are some cars (EVO?) that can utilize a substantially wider tire (and wheel) and still stay within the confines of the bodywork. IMHO, plus sizing wheel diameter alone may add some benefit due to shorter sidewall (assuminng the same overall diameter is chosen). In some cases, plus sizing is required to clear the big brake package. However, plus sizing doesn't necessarily change the width of the tire (e.g. contact patch) probably adds more to performance (or at least as much) as plus sizing the diameter. Extending the tires beyond the bodywork will generally increase the track. However, a double penalty for wide tires and increased track might seem unfair. Might want to stand by with a good set of crying towels. punish - punish - punish. I fear these rules will only scare away new TT drivers. I hope im wrong. if we were racing for cash, that could justify these anal annie rules, sure. id be all for it and your car would be the first one protested. (I know im not in your class but its FUN, right? LOL!!) Im set in what I have. ill wait like the rest of us and see where my car falls in and then decide what to do from there. I can only undo so many mods before its not worth it. It might even be beneficial to just build the car to the max of the GTS2 rules and go for that championship. Much less rules there, HP to weight ratios only. Simplistic at its finest! Naw, no crying towels needed, bait those who you can bait and sit back and enjoy. Ive enjoyed this thread immensely! As for car colors... it is the red cars that should be penalized. Ask any cop... red cars are faster. Well, as a former cop, I can dissagree with you. Its my best professional opinion that its actually those damn punk kids in those 4 banger turbo cars. (mostly blue and yellow too I might add!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 Yellow Flags!!! I think is something we should look at for the new rules. Last year, I had seen people pass under a yellow (Dbl yellow and Area yellow) in TT. I feel that if someone passes under yellow, his laps shouldn’t count for that session. Being an Instructor I feel it’s important that we follow the flag rules, and should be treated the same as a spin or four off. two weeks ago; I was caught off guard under a Dbl Yellow, when a Vette passed about 6 or 7 of us. If I hadn't been looking in my mirrors, I would have hit him going into turn 1 at PIR. I believe it also happen once at Buttonwillow, Willow Springs and Cal Speedway. We all know if we passed under yellow in a race, we will be penalized. It should be the same for TT. We all know better, so we should be penalized for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAC Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 I agree, Ted. Definitely something that should be considered for the new rules. Yellow Flags!!! I think is something we should look at for the new rules. Last year, I had seen people pass under a yellow (Dbl yellow and Area yellow) in TT. I feel that if someone passes under yellow, his laps shouldn’t count for that session. Being an Instructor I feel it’s important that we follow the flag rules, and should be treated the same as a spin or four off. two weeks ago; I was caught off guard under a Dbl Yellow, when a Vette passed about 6 or 7 of us. If I hadn't been looking in my mirrors, I would have hit him going into turn 1 at PIR. I believe it also happen once at Buttonwillow, Willow Springs and Cal Speedway. We all know if we passed under yellow in a race, we will be penalized. It should be the same for TT. We all know better, so we should be penalized for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOTORGOSPEL Ministries Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 Hey there, Mark you said: "As in every level of motor sports, it's how fast you want to spend... " Sorry I still haven't taken the time to learn to use the quotes. The relationship between dollars and speed is not universal. That's the point I'm making. It is to some extent up to Greg how strong the influence of the dollar is vs. ingenuity and driving ability. A few crude examples illustrate the point. Consider a plot with the probability of winning on the Y-axis and dollars on the X-axis. For Nextel Cup, the slope is zero and the Y-value is zero from $0 to about $100K (for one race) and then the slope is positive although not necessarily linear from $100K to about $3M and then goes flat again. Spending $4M doesn't give you much more chance of winning than $3M but spending $3M gives you much more chance of winning than spending $100K. The feature division in NASCAR's minor leagues has a similar shape but it flattens out on top at about $300K. The next division down (which is almost as fast but has less prestige) has a similar shape and tops out at $30K instead of $300K. NASCAR and others including NASA's race groups have figured out how to shape this curve for various budgets. Greg has earned the privilege of shaping this curve to some extent for those of us in TT. I feel like tires are a very significant factor in deciding whether the championship is won by dollars or car setup/driving ability. I would reiterate that in my opinion, the TT program is about 95% perfect just the way it is compared to anything else on the motorsports landscape for an amateur run-what-you-brung group and that this dialogue is about minor tweaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 NASCAR and others including NASA's race groups have figured out how to shape this curve for various budgets. I will agree with you there. I should spend less money racing in Spec Focus, then some of the people running in TT. I just don't know how Greg can put a limit on a Run what you brung type series. The only way you can limit spending in Run what you brung Series is to have a Tire limits. But, How can that be done???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOTORGOSPEL Ministries Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 Hello Ted, Here's a crude idea. I am in the middle of something else so I offer this only as a general direction and not a well-thought-out plan. Maybe you and Greg can mold it into something useful. 1. The people who are generally in contention for a championship are showing up to most events. Accordingly, anybody who is only showing up a couple of times can run anything they want. You won't cramp them and they won't buy the championship. 2. The people who are running for the championship are there event after event so you wouldn't have a huge job monitoring (or even just trusting them) for something like "if you are 2000 lbs, you can only have one new tire per weekend unless you cut a tire", "if you are 3000 lbs, you can have 2 new tires per weekend unless you cut a tire". Hoosiers cost 8 points, Toyos cost 3 points etc. 3. If you want to monitor instead of merely take peoples word for it, do some homework with NASCAR or (I think) ASC who both limit people to 1 tire per weekend in certain divisions and it's not on the honor system. They must put some indelible mark on the sidewall or similar. I was a tech inspector as well as a driver in NASCAR but I was never involved with a division that had a tire limit. Best wishes and thank you for showing a sincere interest Ted, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted December 30, 2005 Members Share Posted December 30, 2005 I just don't know how Greg can put a limit on a Run what you brung type series. The only way you can limit spending in Run what you brung Series is to have a Tire limits. But, How can that be done???? I doubt anyone who has the kind of funds to go real racing will spend $30K a year for a hollow Time Trial trophy. I feel they would opt for a real racing series, wouldnt you? I know I sure would! I know that last year I spent a grand total of 4K on towing and hotel bills. car build/repair & tires bill was $4K. Most of these expenses are not reoccouring for next season for me and also consider that I do ALL my own repairs myself. So a full TT race season for less than $10K a year? Amatuer for sure id say. Imagine what I could do with $20K, oh yeah, id do real racing! LOL!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 I agree with you Shawn. Last year in SoCal I don’t know anyone who finished in the Top-3 in every class that spent a lot of money. The only one I know that was changing tires every weekend was Greg, but he was also running 7 or 8 session a day. I used 2 sets of tires all year. The First half I started with Falkens, and after that I switch to Toyo's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raysingh Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 2. The people who are running for the championship are there event after event so you wouldn't have a huge job monitoring (or even just trusting them) for something like "if you are 2000 lbs, you can only have one new tire per weekend unless you cut a tire", "if you are 3000 lbs, you can have 2 new tires per weekend unless you cut a tire". Hoosiers cost 8 points, Toyos cost 3 points etc. Aaron, Sure the curve flattens out eventually...my point was that i am way to the left and if you allow 2 new tires per w/e for my car, i'll end up with a 20-tire credit at the end of the season. I'd advocate simplicity...x points for R-compounds, 2x points for R-compounds with treadwear < 50. Beyond that, spend to your heart (or wallet's) content. Also, I really agree that the rules are 95% there (thanks to Greg) and only minor tweaks should be required. Mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon2dmaX Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Hey... if someone's is willing to spend several hundred dollars every weekend to get a TT trophy... I say let them go for it. An expensive piece of hardware if you ask me. Actually, I was hoping to put together a car that could be run on "street" (read non DOT race) tires as that would be a bit more challenging and a whole lot less expensive. The street tire classes in AutoX (STS, STU, STX) have drawn a huge following, which of course, has led the tire makers to develop even better tires for this category. I do think it makes sense to add more points for the really sticky DOT race tires (e.g. Kumho V710 vs. Victoracer). I think Greg is leaning in this direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted December 31, 2005 Members Share Posted December 31, 2005 Hey... if someone's is willing to spend several hundred dollars every weekend to get a TT trophy... I say let them go for it. An expensive piece of hardware if you ask me. Actually, I was hoping to put together a car that could be run on "street" (read non DOT race) tires as that would be a bit more challenging and a whole lot less expensive. The street tire classes in AutoX (STS, STU, STX) have drawn a huge following, which of course, has led the tire makers to develop even better tires for this category. I do think it makes sense to add more points for the really sticky DOT race tires (e.g. Kumho V710 vs. Victoracer). I think Greg is leaning in this direction. So, you ready to come do the 1 Lap of America with us in May?? 8 days, 8 tracks all on the same set of Street Tires! (Everybody is on street tires.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon2dmaX Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Hey... if someone's is willing to spend several hundred dollars every weekend to get a TT trophy... I say let them go for it. An expensive piece of hardware if you ask me. Actually, I was hoping to put together a car that could be run on "street" (read non DOT race) tires as that would be a bit more challenging and a whole lot less expensive. The street tire classes in AutoX (STS, STU, STX) have drawn a huge following, which of course, has led the tire makers to develop even better tires for this category. I do think it makes sense to add more points for the really sticky DOT race tires (e.g. Kumho V710 vs. Victoracer). I think Greg is leaning in this direction. So, you ready to come do the 1 Lap of America with us in May?? 8 days, 8 tracks all on the same set of Street Tires! (Everybody is on street tires.) Actually, I liked the older format (it was called the Cannonball Run as I recall). Manhattan, NY to Manhattan Beach, CA. Seem to recall the best times in the 38 hour range. At around this time I was visiting Pittsburgh, PA and decided to see if I could drive straight through to Burbank. Did it in 45 hours in my Mazda RX3 without pushing the speed limit. But, all in all, with a good second driver, I felt that I could turn in a decent time in the Canonball. Under the current rules, the selection of street tires is limited by The Tire Rack who is the current sponser with Car and Driver. Can't say that I am overly excited about their tire choices, but then again, every competitor is subject to the same limitation. I would definitely be interested, but have a hard time getting away for the length of time required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon2dmaX Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 More on the Cannonball Run. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannonball_Baker_Sea-To-Shining-Sea_Memorial_Trophy_Dash The trip I mentioned was completed in late July, 1973; a total of 2550 miles. No cruise control... talk about leg cramps. Doubt that I could come close to duplicating the time today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted January 1, 2006 Members Share Posted January 1, 2006 More on the Cannonball Run. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannonball_Baker_Sea-To-Shining-Sea_Memorial_Trophy_Dash The trip I mentioned was completed in late July, 1973; a total of 2550 miles. No cruise control... talk about leg cramps. Doubt that I could come close to duplicating the time today. Yeah, Brock says the law doesnt like us racing across the country, so this is how we keep it alive. Ive been lucky enough to hear a few stories from him that didnt quite make the book or movie. I dont think I would ever like to attempt that on public roads. We do speed, but nothing like what those guys did back in the day! How bout these new rules!! Whoo-hoo!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon2dmaX Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 More on the Cannonball Run. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannonball_Baker_Sea-To-Shining-Sea_Memorial_Trophy_Dash The trip I mentioned was completed in late July, 1973; a total of 2550 miles. No cruise control... talk about leg cramps. Doubt that I could come close to duplicating the time today. Yeah, Brock says the law doesnt like us racing across the country, so this is how we keep it alive. Ive been lucky enough to hear a few stories from him that didnt quite make the book or movie. I dont think I would ever like to attempt that on public roads. We do speed, but nothing like what those guys did back in the day! How bout these new rules!! Whoo-hoo!!! Actually, the law enforcement authorities have little to say about it unless there is a violation (e.g. speeding). In fact, reading the C&D article, there were relatively few speeding citations... and most were accumulated by one team. The second place team (PDRA) managed to average in excess of 77 mph without any citations. Thus, the real legal issue involved the potential for civil liability. Pretty clearly, C&D didn't want to be an "official" promoter of the event, or to openly encourage attacks on record. For the results of the first event and C&D's disclaimer, see: http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=9536&page_number=6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 1, 2006 Author National Staff Share Posted January 1, 2006 Not that it matters much at this point, because the rules are basically finished and just waiting for approval, but do you think this might be a little off topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted January 2, 2006 Members Share Posted January 2, 2006 Not that it matters much at this point, because the rules are basically finished and just waiting for approval, but do you think this might be a little off topic Anything to keep people from sending the hit squad to your casa, my good Dr. (Were helping!!!) I found a grey area. In the suspension section where it says, "Changed/added anti-sway bars" I think that if a swaybar(s) was origionally installed and you remove it then +2 points for that too? What I mean to say is, change it to read Changed/added or removal of anti-sway bars If you dont change this, then FREEBIE for me and I dont want to hear no whinning about it. And what if you only do 1 bar? Make it +1 point for each swaybar mod? Hey, I have 1 day left on it this, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 2, 2006 Author National Staff Share Posted January 2, 2006 Hmmm, I guess it would come down to whether or not the term "modify anti-roll bars" would cover the removal of them. Since they are no longer in the OEM configuration, I believe it would. But, since I still have the final draft, consider it covered. One bar, two bars, twelve bars........all the same cost. If we were dealing with a single type of car, it might make sense to point each bar out separately. But, with all of the different types of cars we have, some will have more of a benefit from a single bar change (or removal ) than those with both front and rear changed. Actually, a single bar removal has the greatest benefit for many cars. We'll have to consider this again. Maybe 2 points for front or rear modification or replacement, and 15 points for removal This is great, I can't wait to release the rules. I feel like Santa Claus and the Grinch at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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